Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3

[Stamos]

Currently we are 3rd in the league for inside 50's averaging just under 30, 3rd in contested possessions, 2nd in clearances, number 1 for intercepts, 2nd for tackles, 3rd for inside 50 tackles, first for 1%ers & we have "won" both games "expected score- I really don't think the players are confused on the game plan, that they are 100% committed or the game plan is not working".

The problem is we are dead last for disposal efficiency (64.6%), number 1 for turnovers and 14th for marks inside 50 - basic execution is what is letting us down not any great conspiracy theory on a rift between players and the coach or players not understanding what they are being asked to do.

I agree that execution has been really poor.
I would argue that a likely reason for at least a significant part of this is to do with our training and system.

 

[Soapy V]

Agree, the optimist in me says that skills should be the easy thing to fix and we are getting all the hard stuff right - but the fact we still haven't fixed it after years is distressing.

100%. If you read some of my training posts it's a major frustration of mine. I have said many times we need a Mark Williams type who works on skills

My observation is that we spend to much time contested ball and defence work in match sims that we are so used to just kicking wildly. It is becoming in built. I have never once seen us train quick ball movement, switching and look to hit targets. It's first option and bang it

I went to a Collingwood training session last year and difference was stark. Focus all session was lift eyes, look for spare and pull trigger. Back and forth. Back yourself in

We do the opposite

 

[Graffy4242]

Recycled game plan from about 2 years ago.

EFA

 

[The Bighouse]

I agree that execution has been really poor.
I would argue that a likely reason for at least a significant part of this is to do with our training and system.

Whoa, some really bad basic errors have been evident and damaging.
McGovern, Haynes, Docherty - senior players providing amateur skills. Walsh lagging. Acres post surgery recovery is poor (worse than normal).

Cowan following suit with some head scratchers. JSOS chest mark spill and then inaccuracy etc etc

Better teams won’t make these mistakes hence not losing games because of them. This is our downfall ATM. Forward handballs missing.

Then there’s the buckling under pressure that has resumed (after starting to win the close encounters).

 

[The Bighouse]

100%. If you read some of my training posts it's a major frustration of mine. I have said many times we need a Mark Williams type who works on skills

My observation is that we spend to much time contested ball and defence work in match sims that we are so used to just kicking wildly. It is becoming in built. I have never once seen us train quick ball movement, switching and look to hit targets. It's first option and bang it

I went to a Collingwood training session last year and difference was stark. Focus all session was lift eyes, look for spare and pull trigger. Back and forth. Back yourself in

We do the opposite

Is it match sim & running (without real pressure)?

Adam Simpson was highlighting when Sam Mitchell was at WCE. He’d come up with drills or strike out ones that were nothing/not interesting. There needed to be result out of training.

 

[Stamos]

Whoa, some really bad basic errors have been evident and damaging.
McGovern, Haynes, Docherty - senior players providing amateur skills. Walsh lagging. Acres post surgery recovery is poor (worse than normal).

Cowan following suit with some head scratchers. JSOS chest mark spill and then inaccuracy etc etc

Better teams won’t make these mistakes hence not losing games because of them. This is our downfall ATM. Forward handballs missing.

Then there’s the buckling under pressure that has resumed (after starting to win the close encounters).

Some are just skill errors.
But the sheer number, and the way they happened, point to something bigger.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Isn't this reflective of our game style?

Sounds just about right for a game plan that says bomb it long every chance you get.

 

[Soapy V]

Whoa, some really bad basic errors have been evident and damaging.
McGovern, Haynes, Docherty - senior players providing amateur skills. Walsh lagging. Acres post surgery recovery is poor (worse than normal).

Cowan following suit with some head scratchers. JSOS chest mark spill and then inaccuracy etc etc

Better teams won’t make these mistakes hence not losing games because of them. This is our downfall ATM. Forward handballs missing.

Then there’s the buckling under pressure that has resumed (after starting to win the close encounters).

All the names mentioned I believe are basically good ball users

I seriously believe Game Plan, Training and Confidence have a lot to do with it.

Watching the way the Hawks moved the ball on Thursday was impressive. Not just skill but they look up, they know where to go and they have people breaking to those areas. They are encouraged to pull the trigger. There is trust and a belief

We don't. That is a fact. We don't look and we don't kick to the advantage of teammates or players in space. That is not skill

 

[The Bighouse]

Some are just skill errors.
But the sheer number, and the way they happened, point to something bigger.

Incompetent footballers cost us vs RFC.
Doc off the bench so no excuse (and same butcherer as he’s always been).
McGovern & Cowan dimwitted kicks
McGovern & Haynes (new to the club) dropped marks.

We’re not having some of these conversations if we win that game bar the highlighted skill errors.

Lack of skills training perhaps (should really be a priority for our group) but our players are in the lower % when it comes to being highly rated kicks (even from drafting).

 

[Arr0w]

I agree that execution has been really poor.
I would argue that a likely reason for at least a significant part of this is to do with our training and system.

Do you really believe we don't do this in training drills?

 

[Arr0w]

Watch every game, every inside 50, all sides bomb it long

 

[Stamos]

Incompetent footballers cost us vs RFC.
Doc off the bench so no excuse (and same butcherer as he’s always been).
McGovern & Cowan dimwitted kicks
McGovern & Haynes (new to the club) dropped marks.

We’re not having some of these conversations if we win that game bar the highlighted skill errors.

Lack of skills training perhaps (should really be a priority for our group) but our players are in the lower % when it comes to being highly rated kicks (even from drafting).

Your assessment of Docherty as a player is so far off that I’ll leave it.

There’s a massive difference between Cowan and Gov’s kick, leaving aside that one is a kid and one is (or at least should be) a senior player.
Cowan miskicked off the side of his boot. That’s a skill error.
McGovern kicked off the ground from the back pocket, when he had other options. That’s dumb****ery, not a skill error. It points to not being well drilled enough. It’s panic, and him and the players around him not being good enough at football fundamentals to do something different. That’s a failure of coaching and training.

 

[Blue since 72]

Currently we are 3rd in the league for inside 50's averaging just under 30, 3rd in contested possessions, 2nd in clearances, number 1 for intercepts, 2nd for tackles, 3rd for inside 50 tackles, first for 1%ers & we have "won" both games "expected score- I really don't think the players are confused on the game plan, that they are 100% committed or the game plan is not working".

The problem is we are dead last for disposal efficiency (64.6%), number 1 for turnovers and 14th for marks inside 50 - basic execution is what is letting us down not any great conspiracy theory on a rift between players and the coach or players not understanding what they are being asked to do.

Yep pretty simple, we don't move the ball well once we get it. We have one distinct advantage and that is centre square ball ups. Unfortunately Vossy that's only a fraction of the entire game.

Tbh I don't think we can lay it all at the players door in that all of them are that bad at hand balling and kicking, it's a lack of balance between inside the contest and outside; ie we don't really have an outside.

The Hawks game was stark in showing up two different ways to move the ball down the ground. We don't have any overlap or outside run from any given contest outside of centre square ball ups, we just seem to be all about numbers to the contest, win said contest and bang it on the boot.

Is this because our game is basically a series of rolling contests and the longer the game goes the more players are gassed and just can't run the ball away from a contest or is it something like instruction to sit behind the ball to counter the inevitable turnover?

Whatever the reason Voss needs to take ownership, swallow the pride and adjust or he'll find himself on the outer pretty quickly.

 

[Stamos]

Do you really believe we don't do this in training drills?

We are particularly poor at the fundamentals.
I’ve never heard Voss say that it’s our focus. I have heard it from other coaches (McRae, Simpson, Mitchell). I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

 

[Soapy V]

We are particularly poor at the fundamentals.
I’ve never heard Voss say that it’s our focus. I have heard it from other coaches (McRae, Simpson, Mitchell). I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

I go to a lot of training. Never seen it

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

Yep pretty simple, we don't move the ball well once we get it. We have one distinct advantage and that is centre square ball ups. Unfortunately Vossy that's only a fraction of the entire game.

Tbh I don't think we can lay it all at the players door in that all of them are that bad at hand balling and kicking, it's a lack of balance between inside the contest and outside; ie we don't really have an outside.

The Hawks game was stark in showing up two different ways to move the ball down the ground. We don't have any overlap or outside run from any given contest outside of centre square ball ups, we just seem to be all about numbers to the contest, win said contest and bang it on the boot.

Is this because our game is basically a series of rolling contests and the longer the game goes the more players are gassed and just can't run the ball away from a contest or is it something like instruction to sit behind the ball to counter the inevitable turnover?

Whatever the reason Voss needs to take ownership, swallow the pride and adjust or he'll find himself on the outer pretty quickly.

You can say the Hawks moved the ball so much better than we did but they won the intercepts by 3 (75-72).

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I agree and your stats are damning. The question is to understand why and how to fix it

Issue for me is this is now a pattern and nothing seems to change

I can tell you why. We haven't fielded one elite kick in our team across the first 2 weeks of the season.

Newman, Elijah, Boyd, and a completely underdone Charlie. Even Orazio would help. They are by a long way our best kicks of the footy and it's not really close to the next tier down.

We have battlers across the park who can win the ball but have no brains or skill to effectively use it going forward.

 

[Blue since 72]

You can say the Hawks moved the ball so much better than we did but they won the intercepts by 3 (75-72).

I was more pointing to their numerous chains with handball to get into space and then delivering by foot.

It's not really about the number of intercepts as a total, more about what is done with the ball once it is won.

 

[Stamos]

I can tell you why. We haven't fielded one elite kick in our team across the first 2 weeks of the season.

Newman, Elijah, Boyd, and a completely underdone Charlie. Even Orazio would help. They are by a long way our best kicks of the footy and it's not really close to the next tier down.

We have battlers across the park who can win the ball but have no brains or skill to effectively use it going forward.

This is so myopic

 

[Arr0w]

We are particularly poor at the fundamentals.
I’ve never heard Voss say that it’s our focus. I have heard it from other coaches (McRae, Simpson, Mitchell). I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

Not interested in what coaches say, I've been to at least 10 sessions in the off season and there are plenty of drills and or match sims where it plays out

This whole ' we bomb it more than any side or we don't practice drills" is a fallacy

Last year, we lead the league for shots per inside 50 (I believe)

There is a common strategy across all sides and or other team sports, regarding the territory game

 

[Stamos]

Not interested in what coaches say, I've been to at least 10 sessions in the off season and there are plenty of drills and or match sims where it plays out

This whole ' we bomb it more than any side or we don't practice drills" is a fallacy

Last year, we lead the league for shots per inside 50 (I believe)

There is a common strategy across all sides and or other team sports, regarding the territory game

You seem to be arguing something very different to my point?

 

[Accidental genius]

Re: above rumour about Voss and Charlie - Sean on the Prendercast did say he has heard a rumour that a group of players (including Cripps) are confused or not sure of what is expected of them under Voss's game plan.

Can’t blame them really.

The way our players play is proof that there is no ‘game plan’

 

[Lukeblueboy]

Imo I still feel like a lot of it comes back to our mix around the ball.
ATM, we win the ball and flick it out to a one paced player, then whom in turn flicks it to another player with similar speed.
We need to be able to to flick it out at times to players that can gain separation and therefore it gains them a fraction more time to assess and dispose of the ball how they should and hit more targets or put the ball in the right spots/to advantage ect.
We’re always under pressure when we get the ball around stoppages.

 

[ajb72]

Your assessment of Docherty as a player is so far off that I’ll leave it.

There’s a massive difference between Cowan and Gov’s kick, leaving aside that one is a kid and one is (or at least should be) a senior player.
Cowan miskicked off the side of his boot. That’s a skill error.
McGovern kicked off the ground from the back pocket, when he had other options. That’s dumb****ery, not a skill error. It points to not being well drilled enough. It’s panic, and him and the players around him not being good enough at football fundamentals to do something different. That’s a failure of coaching and training.

Doc is all heart & courage, but has always been an 80/20 kick of the footy. 80% okay, 20% shizenhousen.

 

[Accidental genius]

Maybe the players are permanently confused because wasn’t the same said when Teague and Bolton were coaching too. The players are the common denominator. At some point we may have to accept the players aren’t up to it.

Or they’ve been served with trash coaches?

Bolton and Teague good assistants but trash HC

Voss maybe good assistant ?
Trash HC.

We can’t blame our players on this…

Unfortunately they haven’t had a good HC.