Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3

[WalshistheGOAT]

This is so myopic

In your opinion, sure.

I'd say the same about people blaming Voss for all of our issues, or acting as if we don't train fundamentals at training

Ultimately it's extremely rare for a player to be retrained from an average kick to an elite one at AFL level. Much of what is developed through juniors is set in stone for the remainder of their careers.

We simply haven't recruited many high end ball users for about 5 years now and it's began to stick out more now because that handful of good users we do have are out injured.

Voss, Buckley, Hird, Longmire... Would be the same story under all of them. List management is the key to fixing this issue. Until then all we can hope for is a boost in form and confidence which can certainly make up a % of that discrepancy.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Or they’ve been served with trash coaches?

Bolton and Teague good assistants but trash HC

Voss maybe good assistant ?
Trash HC.

We can’t blame our players on this…

Unfortunately they haven’t had a good HC.

Absolutely we can. Our players are not good enough for the expectations of the fans or coaches.

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

I was more pointing to their numerous chains with handball to get into space and then delivering by foot.

It's not really about the number of intercepts as a total, more about what is done with the ball once it is won.

Yep and those beautiful chains resulted in 1 more inside 50, the same number of scoring shots and a loss on the "expected score".

I agree we need to use the ball better and our DE is the worst in the league but we can sometimes exaggerate the brilliant ball use of our opponents and the terrible ball use of the Blues.

 

[Soapy V]

In your opinion, sure.

I'd say the same about people blaming Voss for all of our issues, or acting as if we don't train fundamentals at training

Ultimately it's extremely rare for a player to be retrained from an average kick to an elite one at AFL level. Much of what is developed through juniors is set in stone for the remainder of their careers.

We simply haven't recruited many high end ball users for about 5 years now and it's began to stick out more now because that handful of good users we do have are out injured.

Voss, Buckley, Hird, Longmire... Would be the same story under all of them. List management is the key to fixing this issue. Until then all we can hope for is a boost in form and confidence which can certainly make up a % of that discrepancy.

I haven't seen one person blame Voss for "ALL" our issues.

 

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[Accidental genius]

Absolutely we can. Our players are not good enough for the expectations of the fans or coaches.

Agree players could do better as well but no way I’m believing our players have had any good coaches…

Bolton was good got culture but without Neil Craig he got exposed big time

Teague was just terrible full stop.

Voss was a great player but not sharp enough to be a HC. Really poor communicator and has no idea about the modern game style. Outdated Contest to contest game plan

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Agree players could do better as well but no way I’m believing our players have had any good coaches…

Bolton was good got culture but without Neil Craig he got exposed big time

Teague was just terrible full stop.

Voss was a great player but not sharp enough to be a HC. Really poor communicator and has no idea about the modern game style. Outdated Contest to contest game plan

I don't disagree that our coaches have been substandard, but this is ultimately more on the players.

Even when we were up and about in 2023 and 2024 playing fantastic footy people in this very thread were talking about the massive issues we have with the list going forward. Now that form and confidence have abandoned us the holes are just more glaring than normal.

Id be absolutely content with Voss getting the arse, but I'm not going to believe for 1 second that these other coaches that are lauded by the media would make any significant difference to us until we make significant changes to the playing list.

 

[bradfisher14]

We are particularly poor at the fundamentals.
I’ve never heard Voss say that it’s our focus. I have heard it from other coaches (McRae, Simpson, Mitchell). I don’t think it’s a coincidence.

Pin this comment to the top of every thread.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

I haven't seen one person blame Voss for "ALL" our issues.

I've literally seen dozens across here and other platforms. Literally all over the place.

 

[Arr0w]

You seem to be arguing something very different to my point?

I think it's on similar lines, disposal

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Pin this comment to the top of every thread.

Simpsons eagles couldn't hit water if they fell out of the ocean in his last couple of years. 2018 they were as slick as they come with ball in hand but let's not pretend WCE weren't absolutely awful in his last couple of years at the helm.

 

[Arr0w]

Maybe this is the best place to pose the question

What percentage would people attribute to each of these areas, for our current situation

• HP/Rehab
• Player commitment
• Coaching/Gameplan
• List Management

It would give people an understanding of what areas they believe needs the most attention

 

[Soapy V]

I've literally seen dozens across here and other platforms. Literally all over the place.

Really? Can't find any. Please show me

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Really? Can't find any. Please show me

I'm not wasting my day scrolling through thousands of posts to find you some examples. They're moved from threads on a whim just like this discussion was meaning they're almost impossible to keep track of.

 

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[WalshistheGOAT]

Maybe this is the best place to pose the question

What percentage would people attribute to each of these areas, for our current situation

• HP/Rehab
• Player commitment
• Coaching/Gameplan
• List Management

It would give people an understanding of what areas they believe needs the most attention

79% List management
10% HP/Rehab
10% Coaching
1% Player commitment

 

[Accidental genius]

I don't disagree that our coaches have been substandard, but this is ultimately more on the players.

Even when we were up and about in 2023 and 2024 playing fantastic footy people in this very thread were talking about the massive issues we have with the list going forward. Now that form and confidence have abandoned us the holes are just more glaring than normal.

Id be absolutely content with Voss getting the arse, but I'm not going to believe for 1 second that these other coaches that are lauded by the media would make any significant difference to us until we make significant changes to the playing list.

Let’s break it down…

Do we agree our ball movement/transition is not effective?

That’s because we mostly bomb from contest to contest and our kicking can bring us down.

If we handballed more and run in packs …we are not kicking as much as it’s mostly running in good formation and hand balling and moving the ball by carrying …

You don’t need to be elite kick to make this work. Our coaches are mostly to blame for this.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I've literally seen dozens across here and other platforms. Literally all over the place.

Point them out.

 

[Blue since 72]

Yep and those beautiful chains resulted in 1 more inside 50, the same number of scoring shots and a loss on the "expected score".

I agree we need to use the ball better and our DE is the worst in the league but we can sometimes exaggerate the brilliant ball use of our opponents and the terrible ball use of the Blues.

In isolation the inside 50 stat doesn't mean a lot.

It's the quality of those inside 50's ie where they land and how easy we make it for our forwards. We dump kick to a contest at 45 all game and seem to make it as hard as possible to generate goals. Our strategy seems to be dump it in there as often as we can and generate our goals from quantity.

Hawks generated a number of goals from relatively easy entries and it highlights why teams can get a run on against us and score quickly.

Our entire game style is based on grinding contests which we appear to struggle at doing for 4 quarters which is really not that surprising, it's too taxing.

I firmly believe being last in the league for DE is directly related to our game style.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Let’s break it down…

Do we agree our ball movement/transition is not effective?

That’s because we mostly bomb from contest to contest and our kicking can bring us down.

If we handballed more and run in packs …we are not kicking as much as it’s mostly running in good formation and hand balling and moving the ball by carrying …

You don’t need to be elite kick to make this work. Our coaches are mostly to blame for this.

Run in packs more with George Hewett, Adam Cerra, Patrick Cripps and a cooked Sam Docherty as the majority of our on ball brigade... Yeah... Right...

That will totally work...

We are not 2017 Richmond with elite transition runners with crap foot skills. We are just a side with crap skills and medicore runners.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Can somebody disagreeing explain to me how we were the number 1 turnover game team last season up until round 18 and the most effective team for turning inside 50s into goals through the entire year if our coaches and game plan are so terrible?

 

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[Soapy V]

Can somebody disagreeing explain to me how we were the number 1 turnover game team last season up until round 18 and the most effective team for turning inside 50s into goals through the entire year if our coaches and game plan are so terrible?

Because opposition sides have worked us out and we have no Plan B

In response strange how the players were good enough then but now they aren't?

 

[Arr0w]

I'll go with the following

20% HP/Rehab
10% Player commitment
10% Coaching/Gameplan
60% List Management

 

[JimmyRabbit49]

In isolation the inside 50 stat doesn't mean a lot.

It's the quality of those inside 50's ie where they land and how easy we make it for our forwards. We dump kick to a contest at 45 all game and seem to make it as hard as possible to generate goals. Our strategy seems to be dump it in there as often as we can and generate our goals from quantity.

Hawks generated a number of goals from relatively easy entries and it highlights why teams can get a run on against us and score quickly.

Our entire game style is based on grinding contests which we appear to struggle at doing for 4 quarters which is really not that surprising, it's too taxing.

I firmly believe being last in the league for DE is directly related to our game style.

Scoring shots being the same and us winning the expected score mean the inside 50's aren't being looked at in isolation - throw in the intercepts and you start to get a picture that while the Hawks best ball movement was much better than our best ball movement the vast majority was not a whole lot different

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Can somebody disagreeing explain to me how we were the number 1 turnover game team last season up until round 18 and the most effective team for turning inside 50s into goals through the entire year if our coaches and game plan are so terrible?

How about you back up your claim?

Who on here has blamed it ALL on Voss? If there are "dozens across here" as you put it, it shouldn't take you too long...

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Because opposition sides have worked us out and we have no Plan B

Right...

And what exactly is a team like Sydney or Geelongs 'plan B'?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

How about you back up your claim?

Who on here has blamed it ALL on Voss? If there are "dozens across here" as you put it, it shouldn't take you too long...

Already told you, these discussions have been being moved all over the place of late. Not interested in wasting my time trying to dig them all up. If you've got an issue with that be my guest to go dredge through the thousands of posts since last week and tell me what you find.