Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 3

[Arr0w]

This is much closer to reality compared to the two other examples.

However is the 40% due to injury gods or also due to a brutal game style?

So I’d go more like..

10% Curse of the Injury Gods
25% HP/Rehab
5% Player commitment
40% Coaching/Gameplan
20% List Management

Who's reality? These are purely all opinions

 

[Accidental genius]

30% - Commitment (confidence)
30% - Coaching
20% - List management (definitely could be better, but slightly overstated imo)
20% - injury/rehab

This is a lot closer to my breakdown but Not sure how you can assign so much to player commitment…

Players are really trying from what I can see …the game style/strategies dont hold up - that’s more tge issue

 

[Accidental genius]

Who's reality? These are purely all opinions

Only one reality exists…

 

[Arr0w]

Only one reality exists…

Which is?

 

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[JJBagger]

This is a lot closer to my breakdown but Not sure how you can assign so much to player commitment…

Players are really trying from what I can see …the game style/strategies dont hold up - that’s more tge issue

My criticism isn’t their commitment necessarily. It’s more to their confidence, which can affect their commitment to a plan or style

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Have a crack at the percentages, it would give people an understanding where you see it

Sure. But I'll add a caveat to list management...

10% HP/Rehab
10% Player commitment
20% Coaching/Gameplan
40% SOS List Management
20% Austin List Management

SOS was the one with the best draft picks to select mids / recruit them. Only Walsh remains...

Voss also played his part in list management as well. Let's not pretend that he doesn't give Austin criteria for the types he wants.

But I've been very clear that I believe our midfield is our biggest issue and I have no doubt that the poor mid recruiting from SOS is the main culprit.

 

[Bletch]

This is much closer to reality compared to the two other examples.

However is the 40% due to injury gods or also due to a brutal game style?

So I’d go more like..

10% Curse of the Injury Gods
25% HP/Rehab
5% Player commitment
40% Coaching/Gameplan
20% List Management

Fair point - there's overlap between most of these categories. Issues with player commitment is often related to coaching or gameplan for instance.

 

[Arr0w]

Sure. But I'll add a caveat to list management...

10% HP/Rehab
10% Player commitment
20% Coaching/Gameplan
40% SOS List Management
20% Austin List Management

Fair and reasonable as a balanced opinion

SOS was the one with the best draft picks to select mids / recruit them. Only Walsh remains...

True, but I feel Austin could have done much more to rectify the imbalance

Voss also played his part in list management as well. Let's not pretend that he doesn't give Austin criteria for the types he wants.

Of course a coach has input in type, but rarely the names

I know a recruiter when he was at the Hawks in the Clarkson days. He would request a draftees strengths/weaknesses and certain key stats, but without names

Clarkson would deliver his thoughts

But I've been very clear that I believe our midfield is our biggest issue and I have no doubt that the poor mid recruiting from SOS is the main culprit.

Same as above, Austin has added to that mix, unfortunately apart from Jagga, there is a sameness to our midfield, same as our non key tall forwards

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Maybe this is the best place to pose the question

What percentage would people attribute to each of these areas, for our current situation

• HP/Rehab
• Player commitment
• Coaching/Gameplan
• List Management

It would give people an understanding of what areas they believe needs the most attention

• HP/Rehab - 10% - but think that also ties in with list management in getting durable players
• Player commitment - 15% and dwindling
• Coaching/Gameplan - 50%
• List Management - 25%

To summarize - I reckon our list is OK and as good as I have seen it for 25 years so feel its the coaching that is not seeing us challenge the top 4.

The fall of the cliff last year was the clincher for me - something drastically wrong with how we play and our ability to sustain it.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Fair point - there's overlap between most of these categories. Issues with player commitment is often related to coaching or gameplan for instance.

The coach plays his part in each of those categories...

HP/rehab ... tell me coaches don't rush players back, select them when they're not right etc.
Commitment... as you said. The coach drives the message to the playing group. Without buy in, nothing works.
Coaching/Gampelan ... self explanatory
List Management ... sets the criteria for the types he's after

 

[Arr0w]

• HP/Rehab - 10% - but think that also ties in with list management in getting durable players
• Player commitment - 15% and dwindling
• Coaching/Gameplan - 50%
• List Management - 25%

Good to see a starting point, will be interesting to revisit these as the season goes on

Might make for an interesting thread

 

[Soapy V]

The coach plays his part in each of those categories...

HP/rehab ... tell me coaches don't rush players back, select them when they're not right etc.
Commitment... as you said. The coach drives the message to the playing group. Without buy in, nothing works.
Coaching/Gampelan ... self explanatory
List Management ... sets the criteria for the types he's after

Coach is like a CEO of a business. They have a major influence on all departments. No matter what, you take the most responsibility for failure and success.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Fair and reasonable as a balanced opinion


True, but I feel Austin could have done much more to rectify the imbalance


Of course a coach has input in type, but rarely the names

I know a recruiter when he was at the Hawks in the Clarkson days. He would request a draftees strengths/weaknesses and certain key stats, but without names

Clarkson would deliver his thoughts


Same as above, Austin has added to that mix, unfortunately apart from Jagga, there is a sameness to our midfield, same as our non key tall forwards

Of course, and like I said in the past, Austin is accountable as well.

But, I listed every draft pick and recruit he has gone for (I think other than SSP picks) in the list management thread...

I've got more of the same to what you've said... he picked the wrong players. Ok, fair enough, but then again, who should he have picked given it's no well kept secret Voss was after durable, running types? The only answer I somewhat got was, Gallagher and Richards - lmfao.

As for Austin outside the draft, he recruited Williams to be a mid on a what had to be massive contract - fail
Pick 8 for Saad - fail
Pick 6 for Cerra - I'm 50/50 on this
Jagga is too early to tell - ACL is no one's fault

 

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[blues4flag]

Funny how quickly the rhetoric has changed from:
"injuries derailed our season 2024, we've had a strong preseason and we'll be better with a healthy list in 2025"
to:
"We've only won 2 of 12, antiquated gameplan, coaches have lost the players, why is Cripps in the ruck, all is woe".

I hope those within the 4 walls are doing a far better job at identifying what's real and what's not.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Of course, and like I said in the past, Austin is accountable as well.

But, I listed every draft pick and recruit he has gone for (I think other than SSP picks) in the list management thread...

I've got more of the same to what you've said... he picked the wrong players. Ok, fair enough, but then again, who should he have picked given it's no well kept secret Voss was after durable, running types? The only answer I somewhat got was, Gallagher and Richards - lmfao.

As for Austin outside the draft, he recruited Williams to be a mid on a what had to be massive contract - fail
Pick 8 for Saad - fail
Pick 6 for Cerra - I'm 50/50 on this
Jagga is too early to tell - ACL is no one's fault

Maybe harsh calling Saad a fail - an All-Australian in 2022.

 

[Arr0w]

Funny how quickly the rhetoric has changed from:
"injuries derailed our season 2024, we've had a strong preseason and we'll be better with a healthy list in 2025"
to:
"We've only won 2 of 12, antiquated gameplan, coaches have lost the players, why is Cripps in the ruck, all is woe".

I hope those within the 4 walls are doing a far better job at identifying what's real and what's not.

It is strange isn't it

From everyone is flying, great list management to offload injury prone players (which I agreed with, just took too long), to moving on Kennedy and Owies because they were surplus to needs

Now, I sense most people are predominantly blaming Voss and to strengthen that view, mentioning 2 wins from 11 starts on numerous occasions

"everyone plays a part in success and failure"

 

[Aphrodite]

I'm not wasting my day scrolling through thousands of posts to find you some examples. They're moved from threads on a whim just like this discussion was meaning they're almost impossible to keep track of.

Already told you, these discussions have been being moved all over the place of late. Not interested in wasting my time trying to dig them all up. If you've got an issue with that be my guest to go dredge through the thousands of posts since last week and tell me what you find.

Well if posts are posted in the correct thread (topic), they wouldn’t need to be moved now would they!

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Maybe harsh calling Saad a fail - an All-Australian in 2022.

I mean more that the deal was a fail. We should've got him for less than that but he caved.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Sure. But I'll add a caveat to list management...

10% HP/Rehab
10% Player commitment
20% Coaching/Gameplan
40% SOS List Management
20% Austin List Management

SOS was the one with the best draft picks to select mids / recruit them. Only Walsh remains...

Voss also played his part in list management as well. Let's not pretend that he doesn't give Austin criteria for the types he wants.

But I've been very clear that I believe our midfield is our biggest issue and I have no doubt that the poor mid recruiting from SOS is the main culprit.

Even that is debatable.

SOS drafted poorly for mids? Or maybe we went too far down the "green shoots" path under Bolton and those mids were deprived of an environment that valued and demanded success.

I look at Sam Mitchell at Hawthorn now and wonder if we might have been better served with a coach, or at least a methodology (cause Bolton may have been able to take a different line) that asked those young kids to go out there and win despite their inexperience.

Mitchell's not sitting there in the early days of their rebuild saying "that was a really good 5 minutes of play guys, don't worry about the other hour and a half where we were getting belted, that 5 minutes makes me proud".

I think we set a low bar for too long, and that mentality permeated the whole club. You can see the results of that in the way guys like Curnow and McKay play, and you can see it in the way guys like Cripps and Weiters lead. Cripps is driven, and gets the most out of himself, but ai've never seen him fire up at his team and demand more. He'll put them on his back and hope they come with him, but he won't eyeball them and tell them when they drop their bundle.

We've become slightly better with making the right noises about wanting success, but the words aren't being backed by action and everyone at the club is still afraid to come out and say anything close to "That performance was unacceptable and there are going to be some really embarrassed players when we play the tape back".

 

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[katmanblue]

Watch every game, every inside 50, all sides bomb it long

There's bombing it blindly and there's bombing to designated areas, so players know where to go and have a better chance of being in a beneficial position to receive.

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[Blue_Fusion]

Even that is debatable.

SOS drafted poorly for mids? Or maybe we went too far down the "green shoots" path under Bolton and those mids were deprived of an environment that valued and demanded success.

I look at Sam Mitchell at Hawthorn now and wonder if we might have been better served with a coach, or at least a methodology (cause Bolton may have been able to take a different line) that asked those young kids to go out there and win despite their inexperience.

Mitchell's not sitting there in the early days of their rebuild saying "that was a really good 5 minutes of play guys, don't worry about the other hour and a half where we were getting belted, that 5 minutes makes me proud".

I think we set a low bar for too long, and that mentality permeated the whole club. You can see the results of that in the way guys like Curnow and McKay play, and you can see it in the way guys like Cripps and Weiters lead. Cripps is driven, and gets the most out of himself, but ai've never seen him fire up at his team and demand more. He'll put them on his back and hope they come with him, but he won't eyeball them and tell them when they drop their bundle.

We've become slightly better with making the right noises about wanting success, but the words aren't being backed by action and everyone at the club is still afraid to come out and say anything close to "That performance was unacceptable and there are going to be some really embarrassed players when we play the tape back".

This is very true...

But still, the fact Walsh is the only remaining mid he drafted or recruited on our list whilst a lot of the talls remain is enough for me to say he couldn't identify mids anywhere near as well.

Bolton didn't take a hard stance, Teague didn't and now Voss isn't either.

 

[Stamos]

I think it's on similar lines, disposal

No, disposal is but a part of football fundamentals.
Our poor basics is much more than poor disposal.

 

[Arr0w]

No, disposal is but a part of football fundamentals.
Our poor basics is much more than poor disposal.

I'm wondering how people will view these so called fundamentals when we go on a winning run

 

[Stamos]

I'm wondering how people will view these so called fundamentals when we go on a winning run

I think they’ve been poor for years.
Even during our winning runs, it seems to be something we didn’t do well. But we were good enough anyway, and, confidence means some of it improves.

 

[Arr0w]

I think they’ve been poor for years.
Even during our winning runs, it seems to be something we didn’t do well. But we were good enough anyway, and, confidence means some of it improves.

I guess this is only opinion then, imagine how more talented players/squads feel finishing below us over the last 3 years