Strategy The case for a third tall forward

[Peck]

Boak can burst through packs too Janus!

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

If Trengove is going to be the third tall (some of the time) option, then he needs to be concentrating on that at training from here in for the rest of the year. As a stop gap with Redden out, Butcher sick and out of form and Shaw not considered ready it's not too bad an option if he's more a CHF than FF.

He's not a goal kicker so being able to grab it 50 / 60 out and put it at the top of the square for Schulz and Westhoff is a better option. We managed to contain Sydney's two tall towers with him doing that role, so we could probably get away with not playing Clurey with Hombsch and Carlile taking the two key forwards and O'Shea the third tall forward if there's one. Clurey could come in if we are facing sides that play two tall forwards and a resting ruck up forward a lot.

I certainly wouldn't want Trengove turned into a tall forward on a permanent basis beyond this year, but we certainly looked our most damaging against Sydney when we had that extra height up forward early to target.

For me Jacko has always been a more natural CHF than CHB. I'd love to play him there every week, but our rubbish drafting and trading over the years and leaving too many holes and un balanced aged list means we have to play him at CHB.

A fired up wacko Jacko week in week out in our forward lines would create havoc. If I was a little player I'd be sitting front and centre all the time.

 

[Pedro59]

It all is dependent on how we structure up for clearances.

The way Ken has us setup is to defend first - we are always standing opposition goal side during a stoppage to prevent a quick clearance and goal. The problem is that in the first 12 weeks, we were able to not only fire out quick, crisp handballs to the midfielders circling the contest, but those midfielders had the space to operate in and pinpoint a target. Now, teams are wise to this tactic and basically sagging off our best player (Boak) and instead concentrating on clamping down on Wines, Ebert, Polec etc in one on one battles. Because Boak is more of an extractor in clearances and not an explosive Dangerfield type, this means that he can pick up stats all day but never really bring his other teammates into the game (no fault of his, just how it is). Add to that the defenders sitting back instead of being sucked into the contest, and our midfield dominance is now a weakness.

If I was recruiting, I'd be looking for a midfielder who can actively move through stoppages and burst away after receiving the tap to go along with whatever KPP we can get. Gray does this, but it's not enough, because he needs someone to be the Robin to his Batman. It's that 'will he/won't he' dynamic that would force the opposition midfield to watch for a quick release and goal, IMO. Lade said before the Richmond game that we were one dimensional. And he's probably right, because if he wasn't our midfield wouldn't be shut down so easily.

hmm maybe a more dominant ruckman...blocking techniques ...new set plays (repetitions make perfect)

Wonder what westcoast have been doing right lately in this regard

 

[Forzaport]

For me Jacko has always been a more natural CHF than CHB. I'd love to play him there every week, but our rubbish drafting and trading over the years and leaving too many holes and un balanced aged list means we have to play him at CHB.

A fired up wacko Jacko week in week out in our forward lines would create havoc. If I was a little player I'd be sitting front and centre all the time.

I don't see Jacko as more natural at either end of the ground but I do see him as one of those players that often wins their position, wherever that is. He has that unique ability for a big man to win the ball and do something useful with it, even if his skills are unfashionable.

 

[ploppy]

The only thing that has changed is we've gone from having the most dominant midfield in the competition to one that has convincingly lost 5 of the last 7 games. The benefits of having a winning midfield are that you can play a more traditional forward structure or as we like to do a 5 man forward line where Schulz, Wingard and one other small play through the forward 50 with Gray and Monfries around the 50m arc and Westhoff going from CHF to the wings. This is where we became dominant. We dont have that benefit at the moment. So we are having to pull our flankers into the midfield battle to add numbers around the ball to ensure we win enough of it, we then throw our deeper forwards outside 50 so that the midfield then have something to kick to. Its a win-win for the opposition. We put more players around the stoppage then they can drop 2 players back knowing we have little to kick to. We drop players in more traditional positions and they know they will simply win the ball at the stoppages.
.

It wouldn't be so bad if it we were only putting a couple of extras around the ball but i have seen Shultz around the ballups on the half back line and none of our players forward of centre..none..that kind of footy will never win anything..we need to leave players forward and stretch teams to create some gaps to run through and targets to kick to up forward. Forget about keeping teams to soccer scores and winning 1-0 there is too much margin for error..play a shoot out and 20 goals to 15.

 

[Long live PAFC]

Yea very much agree Macca, the midfield is where we have won and lost it.

If we had a super athletic, mobile third tall who could be defensive and kick goals then they would be out there. But Butcher has been sadly injured and out of form and Shaw/Harvey are not ready. Redden and Renouf have both also been injured further limiting options.

Whilst I wouldn't want to mess with a winning formula down back or interrupt Clurey's development, would Hombsch/O'Shea/Clurey been worth a look up front in the role that Trengrove is now filling?

 

[King_Tredrea]

We are down on contested ball, aren't running as hard both ways as we were, and aren't executing anywhere near as well by foot through the corridor as we were. It's a form slump. Nothing to do with personnel, it's just a result of increased expectations and the grind of the season taking it's toll. We were nearly there V Collingwood but it was the movement of the ball at crucial stages that let us down. And IMO we were finally right back on the horse V Sydney. Just let down by wayward kicking at goal

 

[Dylan8]

I'm still under the belief that our gameplan hasn't been 'found out' or anything, the problem is that it requires damn good execution of skills have disappeared in the second half of the season. It feels like a very regular occurance to see a kick just off target or a poor decision made or a dropped mark which would have resulted in a continued push forward and probably goal had the error not been made. Execution is key.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Hangon against Sydney we won
* contested possesion +15
* clearances +4
*hitouts +13
* hit outs to advantage +9

Whats the point of winning all that footy if we dont have a forward line to kick to?

 

[Peck]

Hangon against Sydney we won
* contested possesion +15
* clearances +4
*hitouts +13
* hit outs to advantage +9

Whats the point of winning all that footy if we dont have a forward line to kick to?

I think the problem is our players don't hold onto the ball, and instead smash it forward. They obviously must panic and just thump it to space, but if they have composure and run back its probably easy to find targets who are rushing forward.

 

[Magpiespower]

No matter how hard I try, I just can't stop reading this thread...

 

[ploppy]

I think the problem is our players don't hold onto the ball, and instead smash it forward. They obviously must panic and just thump it to space, but if they have composure and run back its probably easy to find targets who are rushing forward.

why should they have to run back..if we had forwards in our forward area they could just run forward there would be no panicking because they know there is someone to kick to.

 

[King_Tredrea]

We

Hangon against Sydney we won
* contested possesion +15
* clearances +4
*hitouts +13
* hit outs to advantage +9

Whats the point of winning all that footy if we dont have a forward line to kick to?

We also had a similar amount of shots on goal. They drilled their chances, we didn't.

 

[Peck]

why should they have to run back..if we had forwards in our forward area they could just run forward there would be no panicking because they know there is someone to kick to.

Because there is no one in front of them?

Seems obvious to me..?

 

[Long live PAFC]

So if we get injury free and back to our efficient ball using, contested animal, ways, does a bloke like Redden play alongside Lobbe? Neither are the most mobile nor have they hammered their credentials as forwards, perhaps due to no opportunities.

Successful ruck duos tend to compliment one another rather than being two of the same. Think Nic Nat and Cox, Lade and Brogan, etc

So do Redden and Lobbe play together?

 

[El_Scorcho]

I still beleive it comes down to the midfield. Whilst yes many were bemoaning the fact we needed a 3rd tall up forward all year (me included at times) the facts are:

- We won a heap of games with a 2 tall forward line inc. against Geelong, Freo & Hawthorn. What has changed?
- We have cleared out the F50 for much of the year. What has changed?
- We were leading the comp in Marks I50 by a big margin and are now 2nd. Whats changed?

What happened is that our game plan got figured out.

The two loose men we've had to deal with every time we've gone forward in the past 10 weeks or so are the difference.

We can't simply slingshot over the top anymore.

We need the extra marking target because we need a plan B and we need to be able to move the ball more traditionally when teams sit loose players back.

We didn't lose the midfield against Essendon and we didn't lose it against Sydney. We lost those games because we either got stuck or picked off over and over again while trying to move the ball up the field. The Sydney game was about execution, the Essendon game was very simply about being dominated in the air.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

No matter how hard I try, I just can't stop reading this thread...

The funny thing is, it's a bunch of supporters who believe in a three tall forward line arguing about a three tall forward line.

 

[Pedro59]

Hangon against Sydney we won
* contested possesion +15
* clearances +4
*hitouts +13
* hit outs to advantage +9

Whats the point of winning all that footy if we dont have a forward line to kick to?

We win it and then turn it over or get it taken off of us or just give it back to them

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Carr reckons Jacko will be playing forward on the weekend.

Kick a bag Jacko and they might leave you there.

 

[Power Raid]

Carr reckons Jacko will be playing forward on the weekend.

Kick a bag Jacko and they might leave you there.

wasn't he a forward in youth comp?

 

[El_Scorcho]

Given that even without Jacko there we still have a very respectable tall backline (even if we'd be better off with Jonas playing small), i'd be happy to see Trengove playing up forward. At least if we decide we need to throw someone back, we'll still have two talls staying at home.

I'd still prefer the extra tall forward and to be able to leave Trengove as a backman, but you can already see how much more flexible we'll be in terms of structure this way.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Brisbane gave Ken and his "brave" selection committee of not picking a young tall as it will scar him for life 'cause he's not ready - a football lesson.

They have been decimated by injuries and decided to pick 20 year old Jonathan Freeman - a 198cm who was in the Brisbane Academy squad for 2 years before taken as a 19 year old last draft - using a freebie pick for academy players. He was always a project long term player. Hes played NEAFL for 2 years. He was expected to debut later next year.

But they threw him into the AFL last night, Collingwood had some bad luck with injuriesand the kid has an unbelievable debut and kicks 4 goals.

Now under Ken's brave selection criteria he would have picked 175cm guy as he wouldnt have wanted to scar the boy.

Bugger me but I reckon Freeman today has had a massive injection of self confidence and believe that he belongs at AFL level.

A brave selection policy vs a realistic one. I know which one I want my club to follow.

 

[tribey]

Brisbane gave Ken and his "brave" selection committee of not picking a young tall as it will scar him for life 'cause he's not ready - a football lesson.

They have been decimated by injuries and decided to pick 20 year old Jonathan Freeman - a 198cm who was in the Brisbane Academy squad for 2 years before taken as a 19 year old last draft - using a freebie pick for academy players. He was always a project long term player. Hes played NEAFL for 2 years. He was expected to debut later next year.

But they threw him into the AFL last night, Collingwood had some bad luck with injuriesand the kid has an unbelievable debut and kicks 4 goals.

Now under Ken's brave selection criteria he would have picked 175cm guy as he wouldnt have wanted to scar the boy.

Bugger me but I reckon Freeman today has had a massive injection of self confidence and believe that he belongs at AFL level.

A brave selection policy vs a realistic one. I know which one I want my club to follow.

This doesn't apply because, Ken.

 

[Janus]

Brisbane gave Ken and his "brave" selection committee of not picking a young tall as it will scar him for life 'cause he's not ready - a football lesson.

They have been decimated by injuries and decided to pick 20 year old Jonathan Freeman - a 198cm who was in the Brisbane Academy squad for 2 years before taken as a 19 year old last draft - using a freebie pick for academy players. He was always a project long term player. Hes played NEAFL for 2 years. He was expected to debut later next year.

But they threw him into the AFL last night, Collingwood had some bad luck with injuriesand the kid has an unbelievable debut and kicks 4 goals.

Now under Ken's brave selection criteria he would have picked 175cm guy as he wouldnt have wanted to scar the boy.

Bugger me but I reckon Freeman today has had a massive injection of self confidence and believe that he belongs at AFL level.

A brave selection policy vs a realistic one. I know which one I want my club to follow.

You know which forward of ours had a similar debut? John Butcher.

Sometimes great debuts can have a detrimental effect on the player because the pressure is to always live up to that expectation. You said it yourself - Brisbane has been decimated by injuries. I'm sure if Schulz went out injured along with Westhoff, we'd play Shaw too.

But you already knew that.

 

[Hinkley Effect]

You know which forward of ours had a similar debut? John Butcher.

Sometimes great debuts can have a detrimental effect on the player because the pressure is to always live up to that expectation. You said it yourself - Brisbane has been decimated by injuries. I'm sure if Schulz went out injured along with Westhoff, we'd play Shaw too.

But you already knew that.

Don't debut in the fear they might do too well?