Toast The Cusp of Empire

[Buckskin]

So much proverbial self-backslapping in the OP, it was a cringe-worthy read.

Sure we do a lot of things right as a footy club, but lets not go overboard with the BS empire talk. We could EASILY fall over next year and be a mid range side.

Don't count the chickens before they hatch because it tends to bite you on the arse. Like all the clowns that thought back to back was a given. Just be happy that we've still got a pretty good team that should be within their window to challenge for a flag.

Yet when Maxwell came out and said we were in premiership mode we won one, I wonder how we would have went if he came out and said we don't want to count our chickens just yet?

We just came off our greatest home and away season, and yeah we fell over with injuries and a lack of match practice to 8 players at the wrong end of the season (thank you footy gods ) but Jesus if you can't get up and about with this list then you may as well shut up and stop following football, this is as good as it gets, ask anyone that's been following us for the last 50 years.

 

[jonbe54]

Yet when Maxwell came out and said we were in premiership mode we won one, I wonder how we would have went if he came out and said we don't want to count our chickens just yet?

We just came off our greatest home and away season, and yeah we fell over with injuries and a lack of match practice to 8 players at the wrong end of the season (thank you footy gods ) but Jesus if you can't get up and about with this list then you may as well shut up and stop following football, this is as good as it gets, ask anyone that's been following us for the last 50 years.

*puts up hand*

Not quite 50 but 47 years here Buckskin and you are soooo right - this is the best list I've seen and may be the best since 'the machine'

 

[Dundalis]

You were being reasonable up until this post. Not at any point did the OP develop this "siege, defensive mentality"; he was simply refuting your points with his opinion and your response was to categorize him in a group, use that group as the antagonist for your argument and then essentially decide upon a different set of circumstances what his opinion would be towards an anti-Collingwood newspaper article.

You were right beforehand. We need to have less fluff about Collingwood and more about what we can do better. But this thread was simply created to cheer people up from what I gather and seek the positives coming out of a wasted 2011.

If what I said carried no relevance, this thread wouldn't have been created by the OP.

I bet I'm right about the characterisation. I've seen enough of it to spot it through the way people post. If I'm wrong, oh well. I won't lose sleep over it, and I'm sure neither will the OP. The fact his response was so weak however says a lot IMO.

 

[Dundalis]

Yet when Maxwell came out and said we were in premiership mode we won one, I wonder how we would have went if he came out and said we don't want to count our chickens just yet?

We just came off our greatest home and away season, and yeah we fell over with injuries and a lack of match practice to 8 players at the wrong end of the season (thank you footy gods ) but Jesus if you can't get up and about with this list then you may as well shut up and stop following football, this is as good as it gets, ask anyone that's been following us for the last 50 years.

Maxwell never said we are building an empire of domination or some such nonsense. Therefore your post carries zero relevance. Of course we are in Premiership mode, I've never argued any different, that is obvious, else we wouldn't have played off in two Grand Finals.

Not sure what you are arguing against here.

 

[TheLip]

It's not offensive at all, it's just insubstantial.

This thread is just one of many over the years on this board. What I'm talking about is certainly not made via this thread in isolation.

Anyone who's been around for a while can see the heavy handed apologists mentality that thrives on the forum. Seeing a genuinely objective thread made is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Yes but I don't get who made you the judge of what people can and can't post on their own club's board. From what I can see the OP was completely inoffensive and you appear to have taken offence for god only knows what reason and characterised Pie without the slightest bit of evidence. Who cares if it's substantial? Can opinions not be posted on this forum without someone jumping down the poster's throat? It certainly comes across to me that it is you that has the problem and not Pie.

 

[Buckskin]

Maxwell never said we are building an empire of domination or some such nonsense.

We were talking about the opposing attitudes toward success, but carry on, when success comes you enjoy it less than the rest of us, negativity comes with it's own built in penalty.

 

[PieNSauce]

If what I said carried no relevance, this thread wouldn't have been created by the OP.

I bet I'm right about the characterisation. I've seen enough of it to spot it through the way people post. If I'm wrong, oh well. I won't lose sleep over it, and I'm sure neither will the OP. The fact his response was so weak however says a lot IMO.

Quite right. It says that you posted some baseless illogical characterisation and I along with others felt absolutely no requirement to respond. On the other hand, had you posted something vaguely resembling logic I may have felt inclined to do so. You are entitled to your opinion of course, there's no law that says it has to be logical I suppose.

 

[Dundalis]

Yes but I don't get who made you the judge of what people can and can't post on their own club's board. From what I can see the OP was completely inoffensive and you appear to have taken offence for god only knows what reason and characterised Pie without the slightest bit of evidence. Who cares if it's substantial? Can opinions not be posted on this forum without someone jumping down the poster's throat? It certainly comes across to me that it is you that has the problem and not Pie.

Absolutely not. If you post something on a public forum, you ought to expect feedback. Else you'd have kept it to yourself. The OP had the right of reply if he disagreed with anything I said. I don't feel I attacked him, or was particularly abusive or anything, we are all grown ass men (or women) here, I'm sure they can handle it.

I certainly have a frustration in terms of there being a lack of objectivity pervading posts in the forums. I think that's blantantly obvious in my replies in this thread. I actually actively post on a range of forums relating to a number of different sports, and I find the mentality of supporters to be very different. For example I find on messageboards for American sports, their supporters tend to be far more objective in assessing their own team as well as others. I also post on an english soccer forum and I find supporters on that board to be refreshingly honest. Of course every messageboard has it's share of apologists or heavily biased supporters, but these boards in particular seem to generate quite a bit more objective discussion.

I guess it comes from directly comparing the discussion between all the forums I frequent.

 

[Buckskin]

I certainly have a frustration in terms of there being a lack of objectivity pervading posts in the forums.

But who is deciding what constitutes objectivity?

You seem to be deciding that, and of course that's a subjective opinion.

So you are actually frustrated at your own subjectivity.

 

[TheLip]

Absolutely not. If you post something on a public forum, you ought to expect feedback. Else you'd have kept it to yourself. The OP had the right of reply if he disagreed with anything I said. I don't feel I attacked him, or was particularly abusive or anything, we are all grown ass men (or women) here, I'm sure they can handle it.

I certainly have a frustration in terms of there being a lack of objectivity pervading posts in the forums. I think that's blantantly obvious in my replies in this thread. I actually actively post on a range of forums relating to a number of different sports, and I find the mentality of supporters to be very different. For example I find on messageboards for American sports, their supporters tend to be far more objective in assessing their own team as well as others. I also post on an english soccer forum and I find supporters on that board to be refreshingly honest. Of course every messageboard has it's share of apologists or heavily biased supporters, but these boards in particular seem to generate quite a bit more objective discussion.

I guess it comes from directly comparing the discussion between all the forums I frequent.

Well personally I can see quite clearly why Pie would have taken offence at your characterisation. You suppose, you bet, you think but the fact is it's baseless and he has a right to be offended.

Whether you feel personally affronted by the lack of objectivity on this forum doesn't actually give you the right to diss somebody who it seems to me merely pointed out that there are a lot of positives to consider for the club moving forward. I actually think you would do well to relax just a little rather than having a rant as you did.

 

[PieNSauce]

But who is deciding what constitutes objectivity?

You seem to be deciding that, and of course that's a subjective opinion.

So you are actually frustrated at your own subjectivity.

Exactly. What kind of moron goes around making baseless and subjective characterisations of people and then carries on about not liking subjective opinions being expressed in forums. The fact of the matter is that all I did was point out that we should be optimistic about the future and I did it on our own club's board. Honestly, I have no clue what it is he has a problem with but he really should get help for it.

 

[PieNSauce]

Well personally I can see quite clearly why Pie would have taken offence at your characterisation. You suppose, you bet, you think but the fact is it's baseless and he has a right to be offended.

Whether you feel personally affronted by the lack of objectivity on this forum doesn't actually give you the right to diss somebody who it seems to me merely pointed out that there are a lot of positives to consider for the club moving forward. I actually think you would do well to relax just a little rather than having a rant as you did.

To be honest, I'm not so much offended as confused! Perhaps Dundalis just got out the wrong side of bed this morning!

 

[Dundalis]

We were talking about the opposing attitudes toward success, but carry on, when success comes you enjoy it less than the rest of us, negativity comes with it's own built in penalty.

Yes we are. Maxwell's comments don't serve to prove anything though. We are talking about extreme attitudes towards negativity and positivity. If Maxwell had said something absurd like we will win the next 5 flags in a row then it might be more relevant. The fact that you think I'm inherently negative about Collingwood points to all the factors in my previous posts though. Siege mentality.

Quite right. It says that you posted some baseless illogical characterisation and I along with others felt absolutely no requirement to respond. On the other hand, had you posted something vaguely resembling logic I may have felt inclined to do so. You are entitled to your opinion of course, there's no law that says it has to be logical I suppose.

Fair enough. Look a persons posts don't necessarily characterise a person, but that's all we have to go on from a forum. You posted what I thought was rubbish, and I simply said so. That's all there is to it really. I've seen some other posts of yours that I also though were a bit suspect so that contributed to it. Again I could be way off. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Buckskin]

Yes we are. Maxwell's comments don't serve to prove anything though. We are talking about extreme attitudes towards negativity and positivity. If Maxwell had said something absurd like we will win the next 5 flags in a row then it might be more relevant.

What exactly is absurd about the prospects of a dynasty with a club that won a premiership with 14 players 23 years and under who then went on to post it's greatest home and away season in 114 years and at one stage was talked up in the press as the greatest team in 100 years by percentage?

I can cite just as many articles from the majors that proposed the same thing after the 2010 season, and I've seen nothing to change my opinion.

And wise choice not disputing the objectivity/subjectivity lesson you were given, by mere definition of the words the argument is irrefutable.

 

[Dundalis]

But who is deciding what constitutes objectivity?

You seem to be deciding that, and of course that's a subjective opinion.

So you are actually frustrated at your own subjectivity.

Point? Again this is obvious. Everyone's opinion is their own. Whether you criticise or praise something it's all based off your own perspective of things. Some will agree, some won't.

Well personally I can see quite clearly why Pie would have taken offence at your characterisation. You suppose, you bet, you think but the fact is it's baseless and he has a right to be offended.

Whether you feel personally affronted by the lack of objectivity on this forum doesn't actually give you the right to diss somebody who it seems to me merely pointed out that there are a lot of positives to consider for the club moving forward. I actually think you would do well to relax just a little rather than having a rant as you did.

As I said, we are all grown ass men. There's no need to get the panties in a twist over stuff like this. If you disagree, you disagree. My opinion as I said was based on the OP and sample size I've seen of the OP's previous posts. Happy to be proven wrong.

I had actually planned on calling shit posts out more often previously on this board but knew it would likely create minor shit storms. So you likely right in that I probably shouldn't have brought it up. I guess it's different protocols for different messageboards. As I said it's more accepted on the other boards I frequent than this one.

 

[PieNSauce]

Yes we are. Maxwell's comments don't serve to prove anything though. We are talking about extreme attitudes towards negativity and positivity. If Maxwell had said something absurd like we will win the next 5 flags in a row then it might be more relevant. The fact that you think I'm inherently negative about Collingwood points to all the factors in my previous posts though. Siege mentality.

Fair enough. Look a persons posts don't necessarily characterise a person, but that's all we have to go on from a forum. You posted what I thought was rubbish, and I simply said so. That's all there is to it really. I've seen some other posts of yours that I also though were a bit suspect so that contributed to it. Again I could be way off. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong.

I think it's fair to say that a lot of posters on bf post the way they do on occasion in response to the sort of obvious trolls that have a habit of posting here. I don't actually think that characterises them totally but more is a characterisation of the forum as a whole. For the record, I reckon the mods should be immediately jumping on anything posted in the main forum that even resembles a troll but I also understand how hard it is to police. I tend to ignore a lot of the garbage but I think it would be fair to say that on occasion my impatience, like a lot of others gets the better of me.

Having said that, I will say that I stand by what I posted in the OP for a number of reasons. When read in its entirety and in context, it does not say we will definitely be going through some period of total domination and winning countless premierships. It simply says that there are a lot of positives to consider moving forward. This thread is not in the main forum and hence it is aimed at a limited audience and cannot reasonably be regarded as a troll.

For the record, I have been a Collingwood supporter for over 50 years and in my time, I will state emphatically that the club has never been better positioned to enjoy sustained success.

 

[Buckskin]

Point?

I think you know the point, your whining about objectivity is purely subjective, your whole schtick collapses after that.

 

[Dundalis]

I think you know the point, your whining about objectivity is purely subjective, your whole schtick collapses after that.

So according to you the whole concept of objectivity is invalid? Good luck with that.

 

[Buckskin]

So according to you the whole concept of objectivity is invalid? Good luck with that.

And good luck finding that objectivity Dundy, you let us know when you find it.

 

[Dundalis]

I think it's fair to say that a lot of posters on bf post the way they do on occasion in response to the sort of obvious trolls that have a habit of posting here. I don't actually think that characterises them totally but more is a characterisation of the forum as a whole. For the record, I reckon the mods should be immediately jumping on anything posted in the main forum that even resembles a troll but I also understand how hard it is to police. I tend to ignore a lot of the garbage but I think it would be fair to say that on occasion my impatience, like a lot of others gets the better of me.

Having said that, I will say that I stand by what I posted in the OP for a number of reasons. When read in its entirety and in context, it does not say we will definitely be going through some period of total domination and winning countless premierships. It simply says that there are a lot of positives to consider moving forward. This thread is not in the main forum and hence it is aimed at a limited audience and cannot reasonably be regarded as a troll.

For the record, I have been a Collingwood supporter for over 50 years and in my time, I will state emphatically that the club has never been better positioned to enjoy sustained success.

I find this to be a far more well reasoned post than your OP, and agree with most of it. I definately didn't get the same vibe from your OP as you are saying though. The whole empire thing just reeks of cheese. The superflous adjectives used to compliment everything etc.

My earliest memory is probably the 1990 GF as a young kid so I certainly have less of a history base to work off in terms of comparison, other than what I've heard from others. But I have no issue with this being the best team we've fielded for a long time. However if you want to even use the word empire, then you would use it to describe Geelong or Brisbane a decade ago. We still have plenty to prove.

 

[PieNSauce]

I find this to be a far more well reasoned post than your OP, and agree with most of it. I definately didn't get the same vibe from your OP as you are saying though. The whole empire thing just reeks of cheese. The superflous adjectives used to compliment everything etc.

My earliest memory is probably the 1990 GF as a young kid so I certainly have less of a history base to work off in terms of comparison, other than what I've heard from others. But I have no issue with this being the best team we've fielded for a long time. However if you want to even use the word empire, then you would use it to describe Geelong or Brisbane a decade ago. We still have plenty to prove.

But that is precisely what the thread title implies. The cusp of empire! This does not imply Collingwood is in the middle of some kind of dynasty. It simply says that the club stands on the cusp of a great era. Yes the words used were emotive and quite intentionally so. Like I said earlier, if I were being objective about football I would have changed teams several times in the last few years. The fact is that I support Collingwood and my reasons for doing so from one moment to the next are entirely subjective. I get that you don't like such posts and that's your right. My advice to you is don't read them!

 

[jonbe54]

I find this to be a far more well reasoned post than your OP, and agree with most of it. I definately didn't get the same vibe from your OP as you are saying though. The whole empire thing just reeks of cheese. The superflous adjectives used to compliment everything etc.

My earliest memory is probably the 1990 GF as a young kid so I certainly have less of a history base to work off in terms of comparison, other than what I've heard from others. But I have no issue with this being the best team we've fielded for a long time. However if you want to even use the word empire, then you would use it to describe Geelong or Brisbane a decade ago. We still have plenty to prove.

I too have a long memory of Collingwood teams lacking certain key ingredients for ultimate success. In 47 years of yelling from the outer this is the finest team I've been privileged to see pull on the black and white. Even the 1990 GF team was flawed and came close to missing out.

I have no problem with the main thrust of your objections but bombastically bad mouthing people who don't agree with you opinions and claiming 'many others' share your views makes you sound like the worst type of rabble rousing deep south trouble maker.

We are all Collingwood supporters here - or most of us anyway - why turn against those who share one of the greatest passions in life in common with you?

 

[TheLip]

I too have a long memory of Collingwood teams lacking certain key ingredients for ultimate success. In 47 years of yelling from the outer this is the finest team I've been privileged to see pull on the black and white. Even the 1990 GF team was flawed and came close to missing out.

I have no problem with the main thrust of your objections but bombastically bad mouthing people who don't agree with you opinions and claiming 'many others' share your views makes you sound like the worst type of rabble rousing deep south trouble maker.

We are all Collingwood supporters here - or most of us anyway - why turn against those who share one of the greatest passions in life in common with you?

I think this is the thing that confuses me most about Dundalis' posts. Pie is obviously passionate about his club as are a lot of us here. I would have thought that was pretty much prerequisite for supporting Collingwood. Let's face it, you get more than your fair share of opposition fans trying to put you down when you follow the Pies. I just don't understand a fellow Collingwood supporter finding it cringeworthy.

 

[Dundalis]

But that is precisely what the thread title implies. The cusp of empire! This does not imply Collingwood is in the middle of some kind of dynasty. It simply says that the club stands on the cusp of a great era. Yes the words used were emotive and quite intentionally so. Like I said earlier, if I were being objective about football I would have changed teams several times in the last few years. The fact is that I support Collingwood and my reasons for doing so from one moment to the next are entirely subjective. I get that you don't like such posts and that's your right. My advice to you is don't read them!

Well for one, I don't know whether I will agree or disagree with a post unless I read it first. Of course I had an inkling based on the thread title, but you still can't be sure.

I don't see why people take such issue when someone disagrees with something they say though. I think it's required for healthy discussion.

I too have a long memory of Collingwood teams lacking certain key ingredients for ultimate success. In 47 years of yelling from the outer this is the finest team I've been privileged to see pull on the black and white. Even the 1990 GF team was flawed and came close to missing out.

I have no problem with the main thrust of your objections but bombastically bad mouthing people who don't agree with you opinions and claiming 'many others' share your views makes you sound like the worst type of rabble rousing deep south trouble maker.

We are all Collingwood supporters here - or most of us anyway - why turn against those who share one of the greatest passions in life in common with you?

Being a fellow Pies supporter doesn't mean a great deal. I know plenty of w***ers whom are Collingwood supporters. It's not about that, though it certainly helps to have that in common.

I'm not turning on anyone. The characterisation part may have been a bit rash, which I've admitted, but the rest of it I stand by. It's a simple difference of opinion. There's no reason to treat it as anything more than that. I'm particularly blunt in assessing stuff on forums and don't sugar coat my opinions. I'm used to doing that on other messageboards as it's accepted and shared by other members, but obviously far less so here.

 

[PieNSauce]

Well for one, I don't know whether I will agree or disagree with a post unless I read it first. Of course I had an inkling based on the thread title, but you still can't be sure.

I don't see why people take such issue when someone disagrees with something they say though. I think it's required for healthy discussion.

lol. The point being that I happen to disagree with your reasons for disagreeing with me. You take issue with my opinion, I take issue with yours! Why is it that you disagreeing with me is somehow exempt?

Healthy discussion anybody?