Unsolved The Family Murders

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Unsolved - The Family Murders - MEDIA

This thread may be used to post the Family Murders media related content. To include press and gathered photographs from various sources. Please feel free to post but as this is a no discussion thread, comments will be deleted or moved at discretion. WHO'S WHO VICTIMS AB - Alan Barnes 16yo...
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SquiffyRae said:
While I don't doubt having Mr B's testimony on an official record from 1979 would have been a massive help for the prosecution case when they tried to charge BVE with Alan's murder, would that testimony necessarily have been reliable?

I've seen one news article from 1990 where B's sister was put on the witness stand and according to her, B had told her he was present at the time Alan was murdered. Now that's something that was in direct contradiction to B's story from 4 years after he first went to the police where B seemed to know just enough to implicate BVE and DR but distanced himself from the later crimes. His official story has always been he was there when Alan was taken but got out before the really serious stuff occurred. Evidently he confided in his sister he was present for a lot longer than he's ever publicly admitted.

Another glaring hole in B's 1983 story is that BVE supposedly pulled over at a park to ring DR to "come over and perform some surgery on this guy." That's another big problem. He's managed to implicate DR but he's done so in a way that doesn't fit the facts. Alan wasn't mutilated like Neil, Peter or Mark were. It's like he's pulling details from later crimes when the situation had gotten well and truly out of control.

Bear in mind I don't use "out of control" to minimise what happened to Alan. However, Mr B went to police before Neil Muir was murdered. At that time, the group was only on the hook for a single murder. I wonder whether Mr B would have been more truthful had police followed up immediately. With a single murder, Mr B likely could get immunity or a plea bargain even if he was present when Alan was murdered. Serve a light sentence for kidnapping and associated charges in exchange for spilling everything about what happened to Alan.

By the time Mr B was finally interviewed, there was a lot more depravity tied to this group. Even though he wasn't present for it, I can imagine he was somewhat fearful that by this time both the police and the public were out for blood. Admit he was present at one murder and he gets hounded for information on other victims that he knows nothing about. He probably felt he had no other option but to be somewhat deceptive to avoid being tied to the other murders. Unfortunately in doing so, he destroyed his own credibility
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I am 100% in agreement with you on this but I feel b may have been around for more then just Alan’s murder . The cop have a lot to answer for in all this but again I point to the fact that Salisbury was sacked and the cops who interviewed b where gay hater’s . I just want to point this out too , most of the boys taken between 1977 and 1983 didn’t mention dr’s shop or bve’s flat and house . DSD’s place was not mentioned a lot so where were they taking the boys before and after Alan? 1980 the house in the port started to be mentioned in victims statements but were before then ?? Note I believe what b told his sister is about as close as we will get to the truth about what happened to Alan . He even said he helped get rid of the body off a bridge .


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John Barnes said:
I am 100% in agreement with you on this but I feel b may have been around for more then just Alan’s murder . The cop have a lot to answer for in all this but again I point to the fact that Salisbury was sacked and the cops who interviewed b where gay hater’s . I just want to point this out too , most of the boys taken between 1977 and 1983 didn’t mention dr’s shop or bve’s flat and house . DSD’s place was not mentioned a lot so where were they taking the boys before and after Alan? 1980 the house in the port started to be mentioned in victims statements but were before then ?? Note I believe what b told his sister is about as close as we will get to the truth about what happened to Alan . He even said he helped get rid of the body off a bridge .


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
Click to expand...
In relation to B telling his sister he helped with the disposal of Alan's body did he tell her who he was helping? Also does anyone know where B was employed at the time of Alan's disappearance?
 
It amazes me no end that of all the suspects in these murders, of all the interviews, of all the investigations, all but BVE managed to “avoid” implicating themselves OR avoid being charged. It’s like the Police threw the kitchen sink at the Kelvin case but even with that conviction, didn’t have a kitchen sink to throw at the previous four murders?
Amateur sleuths who have credibly dug deep here have managed to ask plenty of questions. All this leads to one pair of possibilities for me. Either:
A) amateur sleuths have never been able to be privy to police evidence that puts “a reasonable prospect of conviction” into serious doubt, OR
B) the Police have really, really messed it all up.
 

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squawk said:
It amazes me no end that of all the suspects in these murders, of all the interviews, of all the investigations, all but BVE managed to “avoid” implicating themselves OR avoid being charged. It’s like the Police threw the kitchen sink at the Kelvin case but even with that conviction, didn’t have a kitchen sink to throw at the previous four murders?
Amateur sleuths who have credibly dug deep here have managed to ask plenty of questions. All this leads to one pair of possibilities for me. Either:
A) amateur sleuths have never been able to be privy to police evidence that puts “a reasonable prospect of conviction” into serious doubt, OR
B) the Police have really, really messed it all up.
Click to expand...

I´m going with B
 
AdelaideGT said:
It was a long time ago. If things were as they are now (eg CCTV everywhere. mobile phones) I'm sure that at least the Kelvin case would have been much easier to crack.
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You simply aren´t getting away with these types of crime anymore... snatching people and kids off the street.

Anyway the police had to do a lot of old fashioned police leg work. For example they had to manually sift through hundreds of thousands of prescriptions looking for mandrax scripts etc...who knows how long that took...days maybe weeks.
Now they get that information in 1 minutes on a computer data base.
 
I know the 60 Minutes episode from 1988 is gone or at least not available online, but is other original TV footage from the 70s/80s available in some archives or somewhere? I believe small bits that are only seconds long are sometimes used in current TV reports, but I wonder if the full reports from back then are accessible, too?
 
ElizabethG said:
I know the 60 Minutes episode from 1988 is gone or at least not available online, but is other original TV footage from the 70s/80s available in some archives or somewhere? I believe small bits that are only seconds long are sometimes used in current TV reports, but I wonder if the full reports from back then are accessible, too?
Click to expand...
That's also something I would like to know!

Hi everyone, I'm a long time lurker on this thread and have been researching these harrowing crimes for quite some time now. After reading the three books about the cases and basically everything else you can find online, it's time for my first question around here: Has anyone ever heard von Einem talk? Does anyone know how his voice sounds or has seen his facial expressions? To me it feels kinda strange that no footage of him seems to be around...weren't some interviews the police had with him videotaped or recorded? Or is there any TV coverage that features him?

Also, I'm currently living outside of Australia and therefore I am unable to watch Debi Marshall's "Frozen Lies" on Foxtel. To anyone who has seen it, is it any good or worth watching?

Thank you so much in advance! Would be totally thankful for any response.
 
57Chevrolet said:
That's also something I would like to know!

Hi everyone, I'm a long time lurker on this thread and have been researching these harrowing crimes for quite some time now. After reading the three books about the cases and basically everything else you can find online, it's time for my first question around here: Has anyone ever heard von Einem talk? Does anyone know how his voice sounds or has seen his facial expressions? To me it feels kinda strange that no footage of him seems to be around...weren't some interviews the police had with him videotaped or recorded? Or is there any TV coverage that features him?

Also, I'm currently living outside of Australia and therefore I am unable to watch Debi Marshall's "Frozen Lies" on Foxtel. To anyone who has seen it, is it any good or worth watching?

Thank you so much in advance! Would be totally thankful for any response.
Click to expand...

Great question! I have followed this case since it began. I'm sure l've seen/heard BVE speaking at some stage, but goodness knows where. I'd like to see any footage anyone has.

There have been so many advances in the psychology of body language over the years and criminals have subsequently learned techniques to defeat it. I think it would be an excellent exercise to revisit any BVE footage and apply it to facts we know now.
 
I heard audio of BVE speak about 15 or 20 years ago, didn't involve video footage of him speaking though.

Amazingly enough, the bit that I heard was of him denying his crimes!
 
I was initially quite excited during the Marshall documentary a few years ago, as she talked about interviewing BVE, but in reality there was no footage or audio......was quite a disappointment!
 
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DropBearess said:
Great question! I have followed this case since it began. I'm sure l've seen/heard BVE speaking at some stage, but goodness knows where. I'd like to see any footage anyone has.

There have been so many advances in the psychology of body language over the years and criminals have subsequently learned techniques to defeat it. I think it would be an excellent exercise to revisit any BVE footage and apply it to facts we know now.
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Yes exactly! Like you said, his body language, eye movements, way of speaking/pronouncing things, etc. might be interesting to watch and compare to what we know now. Even when it is said that he seemed emotionless, I think you can read something out of that, too.
I would also appreciate if someone knows where to find such footage/recordings.

Do you maybe remember what kind of impression you had of BVE when you heard him speaking?
 
Butters and Pepper said:
I heard audio of BVE speak about 15 or 20 years ago, didn't involve video footage of him speaking though.

Amazingly enough, the bit that I heard was of him denying his crimes!
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Oh, really? So maybe this was a recording of one of his police interviews? What was your impression of him/his voice?

I am sure there are recordings/videos in police archives, but they probably wouldn't share them though....
 

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57Chevrolet said:
Oh, really? So maybe this was a recording of one of his police interviews? What was your impression of him/his voice?

I am sure there are recordings/videos in police archives, but they probably wouldn't share them though....
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Im really struggling to remember (I hope I didn't dream/imagine it!).

From memory, it was on ch 9 News (could have been 7 though)....I said in my earlier post it was 15 or 20 years ago, but could have been longer ago.

I suspect it was at a time when there was a major development in the case, eg. Police investigating whether to charge him with any of the other murders.

As for his voice, I'm finding it difficult to remember/describe, but it perhaps wasn't the overtly feminine type of voice you might expect. If I had to describe it, perhaps the word I'd use is "snarly".

Someone with greater knowledge of the murders and/or a connection with Adelaide media may be able to recall?
 
Butters and Pepper said:
Im really struggling to remember (I hope I didn't dream/imagine it!).

From memory, it was on ch 9 News (could have been 7 though)....I said in my earlier post it was 15 or 20 years ago, but could have been longer ago.

I suspect it was at a time when there was a major development in the case, eg. Police investigating whether to charge him with any of the other murders.

As for his voice, I'm finding it difficult to remember/describe, but it perhaps wasn't the overtly feminine type of voice you might expect. If I had to describe it, perhaps the word I'd use is "snarly".

Someone with greater knowledge of the murders and/or a connection with Adelaide media may be able to recall?
Click to expand...
Thank you for sharing this with me!
I think I can imagine what you mean by "snarly", it gives me an impression.

If it was 20 years ago or even longer, maybe it was when he was charged with the murders of Alan Barnes and Mark Langely.
Maybe some TV archives still have recordings...

And perhaps it was on Channel 9 as you said...my God...I can't imagine what it must have felt for Rob Kelvin to keep reading the news about this after what happened to his son...
 
Dell43 said:
Further to post No.2099 I have finally tracked down the address of the person who witnessed the car being driven away after the abduction of Richard Kelvin, the witness lived at 23 Margaret St. North Adelaide. This address is confusing as the front of the house is 54 Ward St. and the side 23 Margaret St. I'm assuming the house has been divided, you can see No.23 on the fence in the bin photo.

View attachment 1305874


Police reported Richard being abducted near the intersection of Peppertree Lane and Margaret St. The question is how he ended up at this location as it's not the most direct or fastest route to his house. Image below shows the most direct route from the bus stop to Richard's house.

View attachment 1305369

When Von Einem was presented with overwhelming evidence that Richard had been at his house Von Einem gave Detectives Kipling & O'Brien the alibi that he was driving along O'Connell St. turned left onto Ward St. and then left on Boulton St. At the intersection of Boulton and Marian St. he almost collided with Richard. He then claimed Richard approached the driver's side window and engaged in a conversation resting his arms and hands on the roof, Richard then voluntarily got into the car which continued to Archer St. and then turned right. Von Einem's alibi was most probably to cover his tracks in case he was seen in Boulton St. so we can assume this interaction happened (but not as he explained) and also to explain why Richards fingerprints may be found on the roof of his car when he was trying to stop himself being dragged in at a different location.

From the information we have my theory is the first abduction attempt was at the intersection of Boulton and Marian St. Richard managed to escape but his path to Ward St. was blocked so he ran into the flats knowing there is a path at the back which allows access to Peppertree Lane, then Margaret St. and then Ward St. Von Einem drives to the end of Boulton St. turns right onto Archer St. and then right onto Margaret St. The second abduction attempt is near the intersection of Peppertree Lane and Margaret St. where Richard is overpowered and dragged into the drivers side of Von Einem's car.

Image 1 - Richards movement in RED and Von Einem's in BLACK.
Image 2 - Intersection of Peppertree and Margaret St. 2007.
Image 3 - O'Brien & Kipling 1983, intersection of Peppertree & Margaret St. in the background

View attachment 1305372

View attachment 1305374

View attachment 1305375

Most people seem to think Von Einem saw Richard walking to the bus stop or noticed him at the bus stop on O'Connell St. and the abduction was a spur of the moment decision, if that was the case consider the following;

  • Von Einem's MO was to persuade victims into his car and then offer them a spiked drink. Why the sudden change of MO and escalation to abduction?
  • If the abduction was a spur of the moment decision how did Von Einem convince the others in the car to participate in such a serious offence?
  • After the failed abduction at Marian & Boulton St. why didn't Von Einem leave the area? How did he know Richard would be at the intersection of Peppertree and Margaret St?

Rather than the abduction being a spur of the moment decision maybe it was a planned event! Maybe Von Einem had noticed Richard earlier that day or on a previous occasion and was stalking him, remembering Von Einem was a frequent visitor to the area. Von Einem seemed to have knowledge of the area and the route Richard would take to get home. He had other willing participants in the car, maybe one to help him overpower Richard and the second as a driver. There was evidence Richard was struck over the head, was Von Einem deliberately carrying a weapon to assault Richard?
Click to expand...
Hey sorry it's me again!

In my opinion this is a very good theory and summary. I have also thought about this unimaginable tragedy a lot of times... I agree with you that this might be the route Richard took and that they first tried to lure him into the car (trick with the loud exhaust) before he was abducted, probably at the Marian/Boulton St. intersection. I also think BVE said he drove there to validate his movements, in case someone had seen him. So, why wouldn't they let go of Richard after he declined/escaped and look for someone else that would be willing to get into the car?

I kept thinking about the dates: The abduction of Richard took place on 5 June. BVE's birthday is on 29 May - that's only one week before. In my mind I was thinking maybe Richard as this good looking, tall und athletic youth with the distinctive dog collar around his neck was supposed to be a sick, horrible belated "birthday present" for BVE?

I actually don't think that BVE would have abducted Richard if he had known that his father was a famous newsreader. But as you said, he may have seen him before without knowing who he was. I think that maybe he saw him this time, was immediately attracted by his good looks and the dog collar and said to his accomplices that it has to be him. That's why they didn't cease from attempting to abduct Richard because they wanted him in particular for BVE's birthday. Just a horrible thought...

By all means, this is just a theory of mine. Your thoughts about it would interest me.
 
57Chevrolet said:
I kept thinking about the dates: The abduction of Richard took place on 5 June. BVE's birthday is on 29 May - that's only one week before. In my mind I was thinking maybe Richard as this good looking, tall und athletic youth with the distinctive dog collar around his neck was supposed to be a sick, horrible belated "birthday present" for BVE?
Click to expand...

Wow - that is some crazy sick theory...

I shake my head at some of the insane ideas some on here come up with...
 
And I think I recall on at least 1 occasion where Crease would read the story and Rob Kelvin would give a quick opinion on the matter as though he was being interviewed.
 
Angus Young said:
It's funny you say that... I actually have memories of him continuing to the read the news. And I always thought..wow.

Maybe my memory is misleading me.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure he took (at least) 3 months off.

But - ofc - the story wouldn't disappear for many years after.
 
John Barnes said:
Gday I have put up here what I think happened.

Alan worked for a friend on the trucks delivering coke . BVE payed the account and Alan picked up the cheques . In same way BVE was connected or new the boys he kill besides Richard .
Alan coke truck
Mark lived down the road
Neil a prostitution
Peter BVEs brother
With Richard the press over his taking .
Yes I believe that there were 100s if not 1000s of young men taken over the time BVE and his group was at it .
There where a same of the gay community at that time involved in picking up young boys and drugging them . Same in the gay community kept scores and that is noted by police .

Dunston was known to have been involved in rape of young boys as pointed out in a friend of mine’s book and well known to same involved in the killings such as brown and such . Was he in on the killings NO .

In saying all this I do want to say that the whole of the gay community was NOT INVOLVED IN DOING THIS . Just same of them and the ones who where are the more higher class ones or drug adduces .

There where 4 to 5 groups of about 6 to 10 members picking up , drugging , rape and torturing young man at that time .



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Click to expand...
Mark lived in the general area, so did Roger James. Mark worked after school at the petrol station
 

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