Politics The Hangar Politics Thread

[eth-dog]

Seems that right now Immigration issues win you votes. One of the big issues in the UK election and one of Trumps hobby horses.

It did Abbott and Morrison well

 

[fairbump_playon]

Seems that right now Immigration issues win you votes. One of the big issues in the UK election and one of Trumps hobby horses.

Yeah its easy target stuff

I think inflation is the fuel though. People finding it tough and then looking for someone to blame.

Chuck in some Arab American dissatisfaction over Israel and some post covid grief and there's a lot of unhappy people.

 

[boncer34]

Yeah its easy target stuff

I think inflation is the fuel though. People finding it tough and then looking for someone to blame.

Chuck in some Arab American dissatisfaction over Israel and some post covid grief and there's a lot of unhappy people.

Yeah things should improve now for them.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Well, at least Iowa was close.

 

[boncer34]

Well, at least Iowa was close.

Is it time for me to rant about polls again?

 

[Kong]

They're a bizarre case, America.

Most from around the world can point out their issues:

No proper healthcare
A gun epidemic and ingrained, irreversible culture
Outdated nationalism dating back to WWII
Third world women's rights on abortion and parental leave

Not to mention things like insurmountably crippling wages, rising extremism, blatant racism.

Sure, all countries have their issues, but America is unparalleled in its shithousery, at least for a powerful Western nation.

Yet even the left (the side most likely to call out many of these issues) seem allergic to acknowledging that they don't live in the "greatest country in the world".

It's the grandest case of Stockholm Syndrome in modern history.

 

[Beerfish]

It's the grandest case of Stockholm Syndrome in modern history.

Huge call for an Essendon supporter to make as well.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Yeah its easy target stuff

I think inflation is the fuel though. People finding it tough and then looking for someone to blame.

Chuck in some Arab American dissatisfaction over Israel and some post covid grief and there's a lot of unhappy people.

I think if the typical American was a bit more worldly they’d see that inflation post covid is a global problem and not a Biden/Harris problem.

Immigration is the low hanging fruit though, the democrats have to walk a tightrope to avoid annoying the various minorities that contribute to their base while being strident enough to appease the white people

 

[Call Me Cake]

I think they're both terrible choices. A consenquence of the shoddy two party system that we've all somehow been matrixed into.

As for Harris, the world is on a knife's edge when it comes to conflicts around the world and unfortunately many (including women) don't see a woman as fit for the role of a strong enough leader to navigate it. Throw in the fact that the party's campaign centred around change (despite being in office for 4 years) and going with Biden initially only to flip-flop, you can see it was a disaster from the beginning.

 

[Darealrath]

I think if the typical American was a bit more worldly they’d see that inflation post covid is a global problem and not a Biden/Harris problem.

Immigration is the low hanging fruit though, the democrats have to walk a tightrope to avoid annoying the various minorities that contribute to their base while being strident enough to appease the white people

Sounds like Trump got some massive swings towards him from Hispanics in border counties. Definitely not an issue just for whites.

 

[BrunoV]

When people say immigration is just a hot topic, which as I read the comments is dismissive of any validity the issue might have, what do people understand to be 'immigration'?

How many multiples of 7-figures of illegal border crossings do you need to get to in a 4 year period before it would be legitimate to be concerned?

How many multiples of 6 figures of missing children, pouring over the border in crossings under control of drug cartels, at the same time that DNA testing (to prove familial connections) was ceased, does there need to be before it's a problem worthy of attention? In response to the inevitably politically charged 'fact' check (brought to you by partisans), and if it is too difficult to deal with, let's take a '0' off. State the multiples of 5-figures of children that are missing that you're comfortable with. Hell, let's just call it 10,000 children missing at the hands of drug cartel controlled border crossing operations. We cool with that?

Be specific.

Then there is the rust belt, the Democrat firewall until Trump started to talk free trade, tariffs and manufacturing. I suppose they're all just racists, too. Never mind that Trump speaks the language of labour as a movement, before it was co-opted by elitist w***ers (mainly labour lawyers who despise the working class and see them as little more than a no-win no-fee cash cow) and neocons.

4 year under Trump and not 1 new global conflict vs at least 2 new major conflicts under Biden to go with what was it, 7 middle eastern disasters under Obama, and all of the evil of Bush. RFK Jr, the only Kennedy who carries on the JFK/RFK legacy, joined Trump and will be a cabinet member charged with Making America Healthy Again. Tulsi Gabbard, former darling of the grass roots of the Democrats, is more significant bi-partisan support who will be in Trumps cabinet.

And who did the Democrats turn to for their bipartisan support? ****ing Liz Cheney, who is every bit the disgusting warmonger that her father was. I assume you know that guy in those movies that lampooned Bush JR and which you thought was great...but seem to forget now that Liz supports Kamala.

I think there are many people who mistake their virtue signalling and desire to be liked as principle.

 

[DERO]

Trump is a campaigner BrunoV and if he is the best the US has to offer than the US is pretty ****ed up.

 

[Old Campaigner]

I’m sure all those tariffs on imports will do wonders for the cost of living.

I think there’s some good points there though (although I disagree with Trump’s approach to addressing them.

Globalisation has left a lot of people behind, it certainly has its benefits but worldwide those benefits have not been shared equally. It leaves the democrats and other centerist parties in a bit of a bond because they can’t redistribute the benefits more effectively (because THATS SOCIALISM) but a lot of their backers wouldn’t support tariffs either and they know that anyone they slap tariffs on will definitely retaliate.

The cynical side of me thinks the right doesn’t actually want a permanent solution to the border problem, for one illegal immigrants are an important source of cheap labor for the jobs no one else wants, and it’s something they want to keep milking each election cycle. The simplest fix would be to make it illegal to employ an illegal worker but they’ll never do that for the first reason. Case in point was the government reaching agreement with the republicans on a measure to address the border only for Trump to insist congress block it so it remained an open sore for him to pick at.

 

[Call Me Cake]

Immigration is the low hanging fruit though

Immigration, yes.

Illegal migrants, no. Arriving illegally gives no insight on who has a history of crime, or drugs, or sexual assault.

That is not healthy for any nation and certainly not for people who want to protect their families and women as much as possible.

The democrats have to walk a tightrope to avoid annoying the various minorities that contribute to their base while being strident enough to appease the white people

You're seriously toeing this line? Not all immigrants who are non-white are the result of illegal arrivals, most of them came legally. And, a lot of them came when immigration levels were at sustainable levels in terms of infrastructure and the economy.

By claiming that they would be "offended" by raising the issue of illegal arrivals or unchecked immigration, you are putting them in that box.

Believe it or not, a lot of people who are immigrants as a result of legal migration and during a time when the country could adequately support them are just as stringent on the issue of illegal arrivals as anyone - and in fact in many cases - more so, because people who come to a country that they believe is more prosperous and safer for them to raise a family want it to stay that way.

Trying to sweep the issue aside as if it's just for white people isn't just out of touch but low hanging fruit too.

 

[Call Me Cake]

I love the cognitive dissonance of claiming that a country isn't great and then in the same breath addressing the millions of people that are clamoring to get there.

 

[BrunoV]

Trump is a campaigner BrunoV and if he is the best the US has to offer than the US is pretty ****ed up.

He is the best the country has to offer. I genuinely believe that because he is a reflection of what happens when authenticity and vision replace party politics and interest lobbies. There is no doubt the superficial package could be improved but his eloquence is the least relevant part of his candidacy. JD Vance or Vivek R may be the polished product but they have had to learn a populism which for Trump has been instinctual for decades. I'd take Trump to oversee most of the vision over anyone else at this point in time.

There are so many ways in which he shows up the experts. Take foreign as an example. He replaced all of the ideological drivel with business-like transactions. His military advisors threw the kitchen sink at trying to get him to attack Iran but he wouldn't take the bait because there is was no interest in it. He also took a principled moral position when he refused to kill people over the loss of a drone. At the same time he beat up Iran diplomatically and economically (which, by the way, I do not agree with because Iran should be able to exert as much influence in its region as it wants).

The Chinese respected him because he acknowledged that they were taking advantage of American graft and corruption and did not resent them for it. He simply told them 'no more' and he was pretty successful in the trade war as a result.

But what really stands out to me is the way that the experts and experienced bureaucrats post-Trump have driven Russia into China's open arms. The combination of IP, energy and other mineral resources and manufacturing capacity dwarfs anything America is capable of. You can see how dumb and ideologically possessed economics experts are by the way Russia is discussed, as an economy smaller than Texas (or whatever big state is used), as a gas station posing as a country. Russia's economy is a real economy, not a finance economy. It grows things, builds things, takes them out of the ground and manufactures things. But because house prices are not included in GDP and the Russians do not engage in fake, finance driven economics there is no appreciation for Russia's capacity to fight a war. At a time the Russia has an endless supply of artillery shells for conventional warfare, America has a few solar panels and packs of balance sheets for the Ukrainians to load into artillery. Obviously it can't ask China to manufacture shells for it to give to Ukraine.

And the seasoned geopolitical experts didn't stop at Russia and China. They have provoked BRICS, and the 75% of the world it accounts for, into strengthened ties with the Russia/China block, ostracising the west from the rest of the world. Contrast this with the stability under Trump, his positive relationship with India, Pakistan, Brazil and what was at least mutual respect with China. Even just contrast with a time when the likes of Kissinger and Brzezinski ran foreign policy. Evil pieces of shit that they were they manoeuvred geopolitics to protect US hegemony and were at least competent.

It frustrates me to no end that the working classes in particular have been conditioned into this acceptance that university educated betters are the only ones fit to rule. It is maybe easier to see in the business world where it is entrepreneurs who create, not accountants and people with MBAs - they are the ones who run businesses created by others. It is the same with politics. We do not need technocrats and experts at the head of governments, they are advisors and implementers of ideas, they are the bureaucrats.

Paul Keating, who was one of the most pivotal figures in Australian politics, responsible for its most significant economic reforms went to a tech college for his tertiary education. We don't see figures like this because politics has become almost entirely performative.

 

[fairbump_playon]

When people say immigration is just a hot topic, which as I read the comments is dismissive of any validity the issue might have, what do people understand to be 'immigration'?

How many multiples of 7-figures of illegal border crossings do you need to get to in a 4 year period before it would be legitimate to be concerned?

How many multiples of 6 figures of missing children, pouring over the border in crossings under control of drug cartels, at the same time that DNA testing (to prove familial connections) was ceased, does there need to be before it's a problem worthy of attention? In response to the inevitably politically charged 'fact' check (brought to you by partisans), and if it is too difficult to deal with, let's take a '0' off. State the multiples of 5-figures of children that are missing that you're comfortable with. Hell, let's just call it 10,000 children missing at the hands of drug cartel controlled border crossing operations. We cool with that?

Be specific.

Then there is the rust belt, the Democrat firewall until Trump started to talk free trade, tariffs and manufacturing. I suppose they're all just racists, too. Never mind that Trump speaks the language of labour as a movement, before it was co-opted by elitist w***ers (mainly labour lawyers who despise the working class and see them as little more than a no-win no-fee cash cow) and neocons.

4 year under Trump and not 1 new global conflict vs at least 2 new major conflicts under Biden to go with what was it, 7 middle eastern disasters under Obama, and all of the evil of Bush. RFK Jr, the only Kennedy who carries on the JFK/RFK legacy, joined Trump and will be a cabinet member charged with Making America Healthy Again. Tulsi Gabbard, former darling of the grass roots of the Democrats, is more significant bi-partisan support who will be in Trumps cabinet.

And who did the Democrats turn to for their bipartisan support? ****ing Liz Cheney, who is every bit the disgusting warmonger that her father was. I assume you know that guy in those movies that lampooned Bush JR and which you thought was great...but seem to forget now that Liz supports Kamala.

I think there are many people who mistake their virtue signalling and desire to be liked as principle.

A leader can (and should) be disciplined on border control without being a racist, lying, pussy grabbing, sexually abusing, daughter ogling, criminal charlatan who can’t dance.

“They’re eating the cats”

Democrats should have performed better on border security. It’s an issue but I think it’s become bigger in the narrative than it is in reality for most people.

 

[BrunoV]

I’m sure all those tariffs on imports will do wonders for the cost of living.

I think there’s some good points there though (although I disagree with Trump’s approach to addressing them.

Globalisation has left a lot of people behind, it certainly has its benefits but worldwide those benefits have not been shared equally. It leaves the democrats and other centerist parties in a bit of a bond because they can’t redistribute the benefits more effectively (because THATS SOCIALISM) but a lot of their backers wouldn’t support tariffs either and they know that anyone they slap tariffs on will definitely retaliate.

The cynical side of me thinks the right doesn’t actually want a permanent solution to the border problem, for one illegal immigrants are an important source of cheap labor for the jobs no one else wants, and it’s something they want to keep milking each election cycle. The simplest fix would be to make it illegal to employ an illegal worker but they’ll never do that for the first reason. Case in point was the government reaching agreement with the republicans on a measure to address the border only for Trump to insist congress block it so it remained an open sore for him to pick at.

Whether tariffs are a benefit or not is something worth debating. If there was actual politics instead of political performance there would be a debate about this sort of thing. Either way I think we can agree it is entirely plausible that the rust belt, which gets its name from being the centre of America's decaying manufacturing industry, voted for Trump because of his protectionist / pro-manufacturing rhetoric, not because they are hillbilly racists.

I wouldn't worry about the left and the right. They are useless dichotomies and probably always have been. There is populism vs corporatocracy. Individual liberty vs collective security. No one argues, for example, that there should be no safety net. All of our options assume and require big government which is how you know the fix is in. It's almost certainly got to do with the prevalence of the left in universities where you are smart enough to believe there is merit in discussing why you hate someone. The only real difference between communists and fascists is that the fascists are smart enough to leave it to industry to run industry. Nationalistic slaughter committed by communist regimes particularly in the USSR has been omitted from history. They are otherwise two sides of the same disgusting coin.

 

[Call Me Cake]

sexually abusing, daughter ogling, criminal

Ironic, considering some of the individuals managing to come in unchecked/illegally could be just that and more.

“They’re eating the cats”

Democrats should have performed better on border security. It’s an issue but I think it’s become bigger in the narrative than it is in reality for most people.

People aren't idiots. Those concerned about illegal migrants/unchecked migration aren't seeing Trump say "they're eating cats" and thinking "they're gonna eat my cat". What they see is an avenue that is coming across as having a higher likelihood of achieving their desire (a tighter and more responsible border) than the status quo.

I also find it a little obnoxious for us, as an island nation that doesn't border others, to speak on how important border security is for those that do.

 

[BrunoV]

A leader can (and should) be disciplined on border control without being a racist, lying, pussy grabbing, sexually abusing, daughter ogling, criminal charlatan who can’t dance.

“They’re eating the cats”

Democrats should have performed better on border security. It’s an issue but I think it’s become bigger in the narrative than it is in reality for most people.

See these are all just tropes you run out because that is what someone, you perceive to be in a position of authority, told you to care about.

Look up whether James O'Keefe was one of multiple journalists who was raided by federal authorities because he came into contact with Ashely Biden's diary. It's important to start here because when you learn that a diary attributed to Joe Biden's daughters contains a section in which she accuses her father of molesting her, your instinct will be the normal one, certainly the one I had, that 'it cannot be real'. But then you have to ask why the feds got involved and why Ashley took legal action in relation to possession, it was not a defamation action, of a diary that wasn't hers/real.

Then ask yourself why 50-odd former intel operatives lied, claiming that Hunter Biden's laptops, detailing extensive corruption practices, were fake despite being real and why you don't know about any of it.

We can then discuss who is criminal and why despite 8 years of intensive investigation the only thing pinned on Trump, and which I believe will now collapse on appeal along with every other farcical prosecution, relates to an appraisal of a property his bank didn't take issue with. If you want to discuss the defamation suit by Carrol, E Jean I think her name was, you first have to sit through her interview with Anderson Cooper in which she says 'it wasn't sexy', referring to her rape at Trumps hands, 'I think most people think of rape as sexy, as being ravished'. The look on Anderson Cooper's face is priceless.