The Inevitable War - Keating goes bang

[Rob R]

Isn't it weird that many posters, who in most things are relatively progressive, want to push us into a war that will ultimate end in our total demise.

FFS it right there in the name of the class of the Virginia's....They are an ATTACK class
They will sit off the coast of China, they won't be patrolling Australia waters, they are an Offensive weapon

Isn't it strange that some progressive posters are so determined to ignore and by extension enable the actions of one of the most aggressive and regressive governments on the planet. suggesting that we should spend the billions elsewhere is fine and a great topic to debate but some are acting as if Xi is the victim and not the instigator of crimes against humanity and genocide (Amnestys words) etc

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[Gough]

Isn't it strange that some progressive posters are so determined to ignore and by extension enable the actions of one of the most aggressive and regressive governments on the planet. suggesting that we should spend the billions elsewhere is fine and a great topic to debate but some are acting as if Xi is the victim and not the instigator of crimes against humanity and genocide (Amnestys words) etc

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Replace Xi with Sadaam Hussein and you could be forgiven for thinking we've been here before.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Isn't it strange that some progressive posters are so determined to ignore and by extension enable the actions of one of the most aggressive and regressive governments on the planet. suggesting that we should spend the billions elsewhere is fine and a great topic to debate but some are acting as if Xi is the victim and not the instigator of crimes against humanity and genocide (Amnestys words) etc

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Like I said, you will get the war you are so desperate to get

Its just that you won't be around to see the result

 

[Gough]

When little Greggy Sheridan is talking about potential Chinese attacks on Pine Gap by way of justifying this you know the plot has been lost

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Even that dumb arse Sheridan on Insiders said as soon as the war starts we get hit with several ICBM's that will wipe out Pine Gap and other secret US bases in Aust

But he said it from the point of cheer-leading

 

[Sqotty from office works]

Submarines Hahahahaha.
Protecting sealanes Hahahahaha.
And the press fell for it Hahahahaha
If China wanted Australia they would just cancel all imports and we would be dead within a minute or so.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

It’s absolutely staggering the more you think of it. Here US here’s at the very least $400b to use us as a base and effectively give up our sovereignty. If US says it’s war in Asia then so be it. Even if that decision is made by a flaky Trump or De Santis govt or worse in the future.

Anglo countries once again trying to dominate Asia as they did in the past.

We should tailor defence spending on what we can afford not tailor to a specific threat. Look at the difference to China from 30s to 60s to 90s to now …and here we are strapping ourselves in for 2060 and beyond.

We don’t even know if we will be able to build these boats even in the timeframe given.

Absolutely ridiculous

 

[Demons09]

Yeah righto mr fantasy war monger. Go back to England if you're not happy with the truth here.

Lol I’m vey happy you’re the one crying bizarre comment.

 

[Rob R]

Replace Xi with Sadaam Hussein and you could be forgiven for thinking we've been here before.

I don't think Biden and Albo are Bush and Howard.

We also need to avoid repeating the horrible mistake from the 30s where because of the awful decisions that led to WW1, we allowed evil to flourish and did not start getting ready (note not saying we should have initiated conflict in the 30s amd certainly not saying that now - just saying need to call out bad behaviour and make it clear if they start something it won't be easy)

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[Rob R]

It’s absolutely staggering the more you think of it. Here US here’s at the very least $400b to use us as a base and effectively give up our sovereignty. If US says it’s war in Asia then so be it. Even if that decision is made by a flaky Trump or De Santis govt or worse in the future.

Anglo countries once again trying to dominate Asia as they did in the past.

We should tailor defence spending on what we can afford not tailor to a specific threat. Look at the difference to China from 30s to 60s to 90s to now …and here we are strapping ourselves in for 2060 and beyond.

We don’t even know if we will be able to build these boats even in the timeframe given.

Absolutely ridiculous

Why keep saying Anglo countries and ignore India, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Philippines who share the concerns?

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[Baltimore Jack]

Why keep saying Anglo countries and ignore India, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Philippines who share the concerns?

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Just relax ol' mate, you'll get your war soon enough

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Why keep saying Anglo countries and ignore India, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Philippines who share the concerns?

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Thought that was obvious…this deal will further strengthen US in the region in which UK and us are now intrinsically tied in with this deal.

 

[Festerz]

Why keep saying Anglo countries and ignore India, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Philippines who share the concerns?

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Perhaps because every one of those countries actually share a border with China and so have a legitimate reason to want to curb any potential aggression - economic and military - from their far more powerful neighbour. And any help they get from the UK and US (with financial backing of the Australia taxpayer) suits them just fine. And Taiwan is of course- a part of China.


I mean you would have to be a bit of an idiot to compare the strategic defence interests of those countries with the interests of the UK and the US who sit on the other side of the world.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Marles thinks we are stupid.
He says we need the Subs to protect our trading sea lanes, (just incase China decides it wants to sink its own trade ships coming and going to Australia)

 

[Festerz]

Going back to the early days of this thread - on 10 November 2021 when Keating first fronted the National Press Club to express his concerns with Morrison's AUKUS announcement - is an interesting read.

My post from that day is still relevant, some 16 moths later....





Although one major flaw in Morrison's proposal that has been partially addressed in the Albanese announcement is the advance positioning of 3 US subs to help fill the massive defence hole until the full complement of AUKUS subs come on board.

But having just one nuclear sub on station out of Perth from 2027 (out of the 3-4 that will be allocated for SRF-West) until the mid 2030s is hardly the strategic deterrent that it is being made out to be. (noting that US/UK experience is that only 1 out of 3 subs is at sea at any particular point in time)

 

[nut]

 

[Baltimore Jack]

 

[Not Important]

the right wing media aren’t behind the door in handing out personal abuse, but have glass jaws when it comes to some return fire. including selective reporting.

 

[nut]

My point cannot be clearer, now you're just being deliberately obtuse

Saying "China has elections" is like saying Crimea democratically annexed themselves from Ukraine



I was born there, what's your credentials, big man? Put your medals on the table if you're gonna shill so openly

Democracy in the US is failing its people … richest economy in the world?? Who gives a flying f…k if you care little for your own people.. 20 million kids live in poverty .. more people entering a life of poverty every day, millions with out healthcare and people dying because they can’t afford… failing cities, failing infrastructure … corrupt politics system owned by corporations.. a corrupt justice system… not even a signature to human rights for children.
On every social measurement they are going back wards…

I’ve lived in Hong Kong .. owned a property in Hong Kong.. and have plenty of friends in HK… not sure what that has to do with the agreed Hand over when the UKs lease ran out?????

Everyone voted ms for someone to represent them inside CCCP party.. do you not know this ? Pretty ignorant for someone born HK…

 

[nut]

Marles thinks we are stupid.
He says we need the Subs to protect our trading sea lanes, (just incase China decides it wants to sink its own trade ships coming and going to Australia)

 

[kranky al]

Why keep saying Anglo countries and ignore India, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Philippines who share the concerns?

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Because it doesnt suit tankie narrative

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

Not an inevitable war.

"Simon Crean disputes the 'inevitability of there being a war' with China
Simon Crean does believe that Paul Keating raised some important questions though, which he says was lost in the “personality attacks”.

I think that people want to be ensured that our security is in the best possible hands, and that there’s openness about the basis upon which we go forward.

I think that there is concern about the China under the leadership of President Xi [Jinping], but that doesn’t mean the inevitability of a war. And I find that surprising, that too often those concerns are then extrapolated to the inevitability of there being a war. When I think history in terms of China’s track record suggests otherwise.

… I think that China as a growing power is obviously extending. It’s not just economic strength, its military strength, it sees itself as an important power in the region.

But to suggest that it’s going to invade anyone, I think, is just a ridiculous step forward. And yet … that seems to be the premise on which subsequent questions are posed."

 

[Baltimore Jack]

The United States struck a deal with the Philippines earlier this month to expand its military presence in its former colony to four additional bases, part of a years-long Pentagon buildup in the Asia-Pacific region meant to counter Chinese influence.

The U.S. has about 750 overseas military bases in more than 80 countries, and Washington elites are pushing the country ever closer to conflict with China, says researcher David Vine

I think this helps underline the fact that China is not a conventional military threat to the United States. And that can’t be emphasized enough in this moment of ballooning China fearmongering, a kind of really racist fearmongering that’s both fueled by anti-Asian racism and fueling anti-Asian racism in this moment. We need to remind people that China is not the threat that the Soviet Union was at the height of the Cold War.

 

[Saint]

Not an inevitable war.

"Simon Crean disputes the 'inevitability of there being a war' with China
Simon Crean does believe that Paul Keating raised some important questions though, which he says was lost in the “personality attacks”.

I think that people want to be ensured that our security is in the best possible hands, and that there’s openness about the basis upon which we go forward.

I think that there is concern about the China under the leadership of President Xi [Jinping], but that doesn’t mean the inevitability of a war. And I find that surprising, that too often those concerns are then extrapolated to the inevitability of there being a war. When I think history in terms of China’s track record suggests otherwise.

… I think that China as a growing power is obviously extending. It’s not just economic strength, its military strength, it sees itself as an important power in the region.

But to suggest that it’s going to invade anyone, I think, is just a ridiculous step forward. And yet … that seems to be the premise on which subsequent questions are posed."

I think it's pretty clear from the timelines of this project that the Australian Govt is not preparing for an imminent Chinese invasion of Australia or even of our nearby allies.

I'm also completely unclear as to how, given China's history of invading neighbours (Tibet, Vietnam, SCS, South Korea) and promise to invade Taiwan, that suggesting China is going to invade anyone is a "ridiculous step forward". It's an entirely foreseeable occurrence and we should be prepared for it to happen, without getting carried away.

If I made you bet your house and Super on China invading another country or not in the next 30 years, how certain would you be? Who will be the next 2-3 leaders after Xi and how will they maintain/sustain their hold on power?

The list of countries worried about China is practically a list of all of our trading partners and amount to a greater amount of trade than China (hence why it's not actually that stupid to want to protect our shipping lanes from China). If China and Vietnam have another war, we'd want to protect our trade routes to our other trading partners in the area, including Vietnam (who I'm assuming wouldn't be the aggressor).

 

[Saint]

The United States struck a deal with the Philippines earlier this month to expand its military presence in its former colony to four additional bases, part of a years-long Pentagon buildup in the Asia-Pacific region meant to counter Chinese influence.

The U.S. has about 750 overseas military bases in more than 80 countries, and Washington elites are pushing the country ever closer to conflict with China, says researcher David Vine

I think this helps underline the fact that China is not a conventional military threat to the United States. And that can’t be emphasized enough in this moment of ballooning China fearmongering, a kind of really racist fearmongering that’s both fueled by anti-Asian racism and fueling anti-Asian racism in this moment. We need to remind people that China is not the threat that the Soviet Union was at the height of the Cold War.

The Phillippines invited them because China just stole a bunch of islands and territory that the Phillippines had claim to.

What should the US have done with the Phillippines request for support/defence in response to recent Chinese projection of power in the SCS? Just said, "suck it up"?