Streaming The Last of Us (HBO)

[bourbons]

In the end it's not very deep at all.

Just not in the area you were hoping for I'd say, different focus. Have heard it described as the first game is about love, the 2nd is about hate which I think is pretty apt.

Without giving too much away season 2 should provide more in the way of morally grey villains/antagonists and their decisions, but yeah the story never goes anywhere near being some kind of allegory for fascism/military/government and never tried to.

Actually, I'll also be interested in your take re: a character's actions, morality and justification after the finale next week if they keep it the same as the game.

 

[Father Jack]

Well in the first two episodes we had all this build up about the fascist government that was seen as the 'big bad' and then we've not really had any mention of them since.

There's been constant mention of various QZs collapsing, which is what's left of the government. Whether it's due to the fireflies, other insurrection (like KC) or the infected they haven't said, but they've made it sound like Fedra has been losing their grip rather than tightening it. Also Fedra is a city thing and the show has spent a lot of time out in the boondocks, where there has been no government control for 20 years. We saw in ep 3 how quick they were to retreat from the countryside.

 

[SM]

Thats just in keeping with the game, they were never a big part of it after the initial stages in the Boston QZ.

With the Kansas City revolution stuff, we've actually gotten more of FEDRA in the show than we did in the game.

Pretty disappointing then, as Bluelegs said, you end up with pretty two-dimensional villains of the week.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I'm more confused why they weren't eating the ear? I find it's perhaps the tastiest part of the human body.

When I had a cat it used to regularly catch and eat rabbits. The ears were the first things to go.

 

[Bluelegs]

Just not in the area you were hoping for I'd say, different focus. Have heard it described as the first game is about love, the 2nd is about hate which I think is pretty apt.

Without giving too much away season 2 should provide more in the way of morally grey villains/antagonists and their decisions, but yeah the story never goes anywhere near being some kind of allegory for fascism/military/government and never tried to.

Actually, I'll also be interested in your take re: a character's actions, morality and justification after the finale next week if they keep it the same as the game.

I think the show did tease those ideas, there have been moments the show has quite explicitly brought up American idiosyncrasies. From its political slogans like Bill's 'Don't Tread on Me' flag, to the Kansas City Resistance painting 'We The People' on the front of stolen Fedra trucks. The war on terror and US involvement in the Middle East is brought up in the first episode, but the show hasn't done much with it. I just wonder why they even bothered.

Craig Mazin made Chernobyl which was surgical in it's political themes and the way they were mirrored in the modern political landscape. But yeah this is a different show with different priorities. I just wish the show hadn't flirted with those topics if it didn't want to engage with them in a meaningful way.

I do like the show just wanted a little more, It's a better version of The Walking Dead. Great genre entertainment but certainly not the 'greatest story ever told in video games' that it was billed as. Looking forward to the final episode.

 

[Father Jack]

The whole point of the early episodes is that all that political stuff very quickly became irrelevant and everyone was basically on their own. When Joel explained to Bill how the Raiders would attack his compound, you knew it was from experience, and not the experience of a compound-holder. What was left of the government was as much a predator as a protector, and had to be treated as such. Politics is pretty much reduced to doing what you have to do to protect you and yours.

 

[vast]

I think the show did tease those ideas, there have been moments the show has quite explicitly brought up American idiosyncrasies. From its political slogans like Bill's 'Don't Tread on Me' flag, to the Kansas City Resistance painting 'We The People' on the front of stolen Fedra trucks. The war on terror and US involvement in the Middle East is brought up in the first episode, but the show hasn't done much with it. I just wonder why they even bothered.

Craig Mazin made Chernobyl which was surgical in it's political themes and the way they were mirrored in the modern political landscape. But yeah this is a different show with different priorities. I just wish the show hadn't flirted with those topics if it didn't want to engage with them in a meaningful way.

I do like the show just wanted a little more, It's a better version of The Walking Dead. Great genre entertainment but certainly not the 'greatest story ever told in video games' that it was billed as. Looking forward to the final episode.

The games focus is mainly on the characters. Yes Fedra, the fireflies etc exist but they are just there to show the environment and circumstances the characters exist in.

In the game you dont get the discussions about the facists, communism etc that have existed in the show.

In the game the outbreak happens in 2013 so there are no references to 9/11 either.

I think they wanted to expand the story but ultimately had to come back to what the story was actually about.

 

[bourbons]

Pretty disappointing then, as Bluelegs said, you end up with pretty two-dimensional villains of the week.

2 different arguments there I think?

ie. just coz FDRA isn't a focus that doesn't mean you can't have morally grey villains, and that isn't the reason there haven't been any in your estimation (I'd argue Kathleen from the KC stuff was but whatever).

I think its more to do with structure if anything, they're always on the move and aren't typically doing more than 1 ep in the same location with the same faction of people (again the one time they kinda did we got the KC revolution with Kathleen) - probably need a bit more screen time to build a morally grey villain and do it properly.

 

[bourbons]

I do like the show just wanted a little more, It's a better version of The Walking Dead. Great genre entertainment but certainly not the 'greatest story ever told in video games' that it was billed as. Looking forward to the final episode.

Just on the bolded, I'd say its easily that actually. Certainly far deeper and richer in terms of its storytelling than the vast majority of other games, although that probably has more to do with it being a low bar - lets face it, I love video games, but some of the worst movies you've ever seen probably have better a 'story' and dialogue than 90% of video games. Whereas with Last of Us you've got entire scenes and dialogue lifted word for word from the game.

What would you have as better from video games just out of interest? Bioshock maybe, thematically speaking.

 

[SM]

When I had a cat it used to regularly catch and eat rabbits. The ears were the first things to go.

Aren't you meant to put a bell on a cat's collar?

 

[SM]

Just on the bolded, I'd say its easily that actually. Certainly far deeper and richer in terms of its storytelling than the vast majority of other games, although that probably has more to do with it being a low bar - lets face it, I love video games, but some of the worst movies you've ever seen probably have better a 'story' and dialogue than 90% of video games. Whereas with Last of Us you've got entire scenes and dialogue lifted word for word from the game.

What would you have as better from video games just out of interest? Bioshock maybe, thematically speaking.

I'd say the Halo games have a pretty rich, deep story layered through the first three games at least.

 

[SM]

2 different arguments there I think?

ie. just coz FDRA isn't a focus that doesn't mean you can't have morally grey villains, and that isn't the reason there haven't been any in your estimation (I'd argue Kathleen from the KC stuff was but whatever).

I think its more to do with structure if anything, they're always on the move and aren't typically doing more than 1 ep in the same location with the same faction of people (again the one time they kinda did we got the KC revolution with Kathleen) - probably need a bit more screen time to build a morally grey villain and do it properly.

Sure, but as suggested, why linger on those overarching elements in the early episodes if not to explore them more richly? People say the show can only sustain as long as the game's plot allowed it, so basically three seasons (to cover the two existing and one forthcoming game), but there's a lot of ideas and themes that could have been explored more effectively than just a 1:1 reflection of the game's plot.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I understand the local chapters of FEDRA etc - but I find the lack of government control odd. Either returning to a Stateist model or Federally - I would have expected after 20 years that a return to (some) normality might have occurred.

It seems that only a small % of humanity has survived. So we are looking at a near total breakdown of government and infrastructure. That's the set up for pretty much all post-apocalypse shows, and the writers can slide the parameters for dramatic effect.

One of the reasons the genre is so compelling is because in a dark corner of our minds we fear it could really happen. In times of natural disasters like hurricanes or floods society breaks down a little so that looting can happen. What would happen if there were no police at all? During Covid people lost their minds when there was no meat (or toilet rolls) on the supermarket shelves for a couple of days. What would happen if people were genuinely starving to death?

 

[mighty_sainters]

Credit to you guys, even if i played the game a decade ago I would have skipped every cut scene. I don’t think there’s a game where I’ve actually taken much notice of the story line.

But…. I just bought a PS5 and ordered the last of us part 1 so I’m going to give it a crack.

 

[Bluelegs]

Just on the bolded, I'd say its easily that actually. Certainly far deeper and richer in terms of its storytelling than the vast majority of other games, although that probably has more to do with it being a low bar - lets face it, I love video games, but some of the worst movies you've ever seen probably have better a 'story' and dialogue than 90% of video games. Whereas with Last of Us you've got entire scenes and dialogue lifted word for word from the game.

What would you have as better from video games just out of interest? Bioshock maybe, thematically speaking.

I never finished TLOU game but it sounds like the show is a near beat for beat retelling, so I can only compare it based on what I've seen. I've played the Uncharted games and it certainly feels like Naughty Dog liked to tell stories using the language of cinema and TV more than gameplay.

Games are a different medium and there are many games that have understated stories that use the medium of gameplay to their advantage. Bioshock is a good example of that and I don't really think it would work as a movie/tv show without some massive changes. The same goes for Silent Hill 2, the Portal games or Fallout New Vegas.

Considering more 'cinematic' games, I would say games like Mass Effect (the first one), Red Dead Redemption (A bit of a rip off of The Wild Bunch in fairness), Firewatch, God of War (2018) all have very strong stories with deep characters and thoughtful themes.

 

[bourbons]

I'd say the Halo games have a pretty rich, deep story layered through the first three games at least.

Ah ok, not an Xbox guy so can't say I've played it.

Interesting though, I'd heard the Halo TV show was pretty bad. Did they not stick to the story or bollocks it up some other way?

 

[SM]

Ah ok, not an Xbox guy so can't say I've played it.

Interesting though, I'd heard the Halo TV show was pretty bad. Did they not stick to the story or bollocks it up some other way?

Just taken a different approach to the origins which I'm fine with, will be interesting to see how they build on it though.

 

[bourbons]

Sure, but as suggested, why linger on those overarching elements in the early episodes if not to explore them more richly?

Again, coz that was how it was laid out in the game. If it had been removed from the show, guaranteed that would be been received more poorly than a few scattered critiques about not enough focus on FEDRA.

People say the show can only sustain as long as the game's plot allowed it, so basically three seasons (to cover the two existing and one forthcoming game)

I actually reckon they could get 2 seasons out of just the 2nd game with the way its structured if they had to. No chance any potential 3rd mainline game comes out in time for the show to leverage, 4-5 years off at the earliest if they're doing one at all (unless there is a whole lot more than we've been led to believe story-wise in the live service/multiplayer/factions game expected late this year/early next).

but there's a lot of ideas and themes that could have been explored more effectively than just a 1:1 reflection of the game's plot.

In 9 (or even 10?) episodes? Yeah not so sure about that myself. I think it would require a re-working of the story beats and sequence which I'm thankful they didn't do.

 

[bok_party]

There’s no way that Halo has as good a story as Last of Us in my opinion. I found Halo so boring and I like those kind of games.

 

[SM]

Again, coz that was how it was laid out in the game. If it had been removed from the show, guaranteed that would be been received more poorly than a few scattered critiques about not enough focus on FEDRA.


I actually reckon they could get 2 seasons out of just the 2nd game with the way its structured if they had to. No chance any potential 3rd mainline game comes out in time for the show to leverage, 4-5 years off at the earliest if they're doing one at all (unless there is a whole lot more than we've been led to believe story-wise in the live service/multiplayer/factions game expected late this year/early next).


In 9 (or even 10?) episodes? Yeah not so sure about that myself. I think it would require a re-working of the story beats and sequence which I'm thankful they didn't do.

Surely 'that's what was in the game' is a pretty thin excuse for a television show not expanding on the lore and themes? It's not as if the other eps have been overflowing with plot..

 

[bourbons]

I never finished TLOU game but it sounds like the show is a near beat for beat retelling, so I can only compare it based on what I've seen. I've played the Uncharted games and it certainly feels like Naughty Dog liked to tell stories using the language of cinema and TV more than gameplay.

Games are a different medium and there are many games that have understated stories that use the medium of gameplay to their advantage. Bioshock is a good example of that and I don't really think it would work as a movie/tv show without some massive changes. The same goes for Silent Hill 2, the Portal games or Fallout New Vegas.

Considering more 'cinematic' games, I would say games like Mass Effect (the first one), Red Dead Redemption (A bit of a rip off of The Wild Bunch in fairness), Firewatch, God of War (2018) all have very strong stories with deep characters and thoughtful themes.

Thats fair, I guess its all subjective in the end. You've listed some good examples, played them all and loved them but personally I wouldn't have any of them ahead of TLoU in terms of storytelling.

 

[bourbons]

Surely 'that's what was in the game' is a pretty thin excuse for a television show not expanding on the lore and themes? It's not as if the other eps have been overflowing with plot..

Thats kinda what I mean - "expanding", sure I'm on board with that, and I think they've done that well within the confines they're working with (the Bill & Frank ep, the KC revolution).

Just not sure how where an extended arc about FEDRA and themes of fascism (for example) would fit. Personally I wouldn't wanna see them venture too far from the themes that made the games what they are, seems like a risky move in that it might alienate the established fan base a bit. The Bill & Frank stuff in particular was quite different and expansive compared to the game, but still very much in-line with the game's central themes.

 

[SM]

Thats kinda what I mean - "expanding", sure I'm on board with that, and I think they've done that well within the confines they're working with (the Bill & Frank ep, the KC revolution).

Just not sure how where an extended arc about FEDRA and themes of fascism (for example) would fit. Personally I wouldn't wanna see them venture too far from the themes that made the games what they are, seems like a risky move in that it might alienate the established fan base a bit.

Suppose that's where I find it a bit tough for video game adaptations because the fan bases are so rabid and unwilling to venture away from a 1:1 remake of the games. Case in point the Halo first season.

 

[Bluelegs]

Suppose that's where I find it a bit tough for video game adaptations because the fan bases are so rabid and unwilling to venture away from a 1:1 remake of the games. Case in point the Halo first season.

This happens with books too, really any franchise with a massive fanbase.

 

[bourbons]

I mean.. people tend to love whatever original IP for a reason, pretty understandable they get a bit grumpy when there's some kind of re-imagining going away from the core story/themes/whatever by those adapting it (see the current Witcher mess).

There's a little bit of wriggle room to change and expand some stuff (as TLoU has done really well imo) but its a really fine balance, by and large I think yeah, you kinda do have to stay pretty true to the original work. Thats if not pissing off the original fan base is even a goal - some stuff clearly gets re-worked for the express purpose of catering to a new fan base.