The Mystique of the AFL Flag - Dead?

[PhatBoy]

Starting to feel that way a bit with the NRL. Obviously 4 in a row is nowhere near 10, but without a draft it's anyones guess as to how Penrith fall off the pace, players can be going there all day for unders for a flag for their career.

The MLB feels like a bit of a joke at times when some teams like Athletics, Twins etc can't afford even 50% of the salary roll the Dodgers, Mets & Yankees are putting up. I don't & can't take it, or Soccer for that matter except the world cup, seriously.

The panthers keep winning because they have an incredible coach, a playmaker arguably on track to be the greatest player of all time, and a system that simply demands excellence from every single player that joins their ranks. It might be boring I will grant you that, but the way it’s happening is totally different from the SPL

 

[Philth]

The NRL don’t have a draft?
How does recruiting work for them?

 

[Toump Ass]

WOW, you're such a maverick!!!
Don't support a team, don't care about premierships! (what are the chances?!?!)

We are all beneath you Lavender. Thank you so much for gracing us with your thoughts.

 

[PhatBoy]

The NRL don’t have a draft?
How does recruiting work for them?

Every team is different.

The best current team - the Panthers - have a junior system that is the biggest on the planet (not a huge thing realistically as only three major nations play the sport) but yeah they have over 20 clubs in their junior catchment area as well as having a talent development program west of the blue mountains so the best junior players from all those clubs feed straight into their Harold Matthews Cup and SG Ball sides (under 17s/19s) and they sign them from there and hold onto them. Clubs like Souths and North Queensland have big junior bases as well, the Dogs, Newcastle, Wests etc.

Others don’t - the Roosters are famous for copping shit for stealing other clubs’ juniors (I’m a roosters fan). We had junior clubs in more abundance until the 70s but now only have 3 so went through a period of just throwing the cheque book at players from all over the place.

Now we have an academy based on the central coast. A lot of teams do scouting in Brisbane given that Brisbane itself only has two NRL clubs but still has a strong Queensland Cup with clubs to draw junior players from.

The island nations and New Zealand provide a lot of talent and so does schoolboy football

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

The mystique is still with me now, once you experience one you never let it go.

Still mystiquing 90 and 10 as well.

2010 would have been unusual as a Collingwood fan. How did you feel about the drawn Grand Final? As a neutral I didn't know what to think at the time.

I didn't expect the Saints to cop a flogging the next week though!

 

[Carringbush2010]

2010 would have been unusual as a Collingwood fan. How did you feel about the drawn Grand Final? As a neutral I didn't know what to think at the time.

I didn't expect the Saints to cop a flogging the next week though!

Yeah the drawn game, well clearly we got the ascendancy early. Then true colliwobble style of course we give up the lead. Was thinking here we go again, another gf loss to lament.

Then next week was, got the ascendancy early, then went on with it. Saints wilted, though the Pies were 4-5 goal better side, not 9 goals

 

[Gavin Excell]

It's harder than ever to win a premiership

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

WOW, you're such a maverick!!!
Don't support a team, don't care about premierships! (what are the chances?!?!)

We are all beneath you Lavender. Thank you so much for gracing us with your thoughts.

I think you've misinterpreted my thoughts.

 

[Freomaniac]

It's harder than ever to win a premiership

I agree.... yeah my beloved dockers has never won a flag in the AFL or AFLW, but I see your point....

Lookiing at what the cats have been through. They played in 4 grand finals from 1989 to 1995.

1989 they only lost by 6 points.

1992 they had a semi decent lead in the 2nd quarter vs the eagles before Tony Evans kicked 2 goals before half time. Cats lost by 28 points.

1994, cats were down by 36 points at 3 quarter time but lost by 80.

1995, cats lost to the blues by 60 points.

2007: Cats beat Port by 119 points. To be honest I wasnt suprised with the back 6 had in that grand final.

2008: cats were overconfident but half of those behinds cats got were either rushed or sprayed shots. Hence the 11.23.89 scorelne.

2009: Close game all day. Cats were one of the rare sides to win a flag trailing the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters but lead at the end of the 4th. Some close moments too.

2011: A good grand final as a neutral for 3 and a half quarters before Cats won 18.11.119 to magpies 12.9.81.

2020: It was a close game for 3 quarters until the heroics of Dustin Martin got the cats through.

2022: Geelong had a scare vs Collingwood in the qualifying final, had an easy win in the prelim final and an easy win vs the swans in the AFL grand final.


It does get harder each year, not just trying to win the grand final or even making it, its hard just to make finals.

 

[MisterMarcus]

It possibly hasn't helped that there have been a few one-sided boring GFs recently, plus I feel there was a bit of a 'disconnect' and artificial-feeling during the COVID years.

So since the awesome 2018 game, we've had:

2019 - Obvious blowout against a massive underdog. Literally nobody except die-hard Richmond fans or sadists will ever watch this again.

2020/21 - COVID seasons. These two years seem to get dismissed or even asterisked in people's minds.

2022 - Another blowout. Who's going to want to come back to this one except Cats fans?

2023 - Fantastic game.....but Collingwood won and plenty of people probably hate seeing the Pies win a flag.

2024 - Yet another blowout. Great to see the Lions finally win won, and there is a bit of an underdog story there....but for anyone who wanted a close interesting game, they'll be disappointed once again.

So for a lot of neutrals who just want to see a good game at the end of a hard-fought season, it's kind of like 1/6 or even 0/6 if they don't like to see Collingwood win.

 

[Obeanie1]

Granted, I'm pushing 50. So I obviously see the world differently to how I saw it 30-40 years ago, but....

Does anyone care that much about winning the flag these days?

I mean in the lead up - yes.

On the day - yes.

In the immediate aftermath - yes.


But beyond that, do supporters give a shit? Do they care like they used to?

It seems that the world moves on very quickly after the AFL Grand Final these days.

The NRL comes on the week after. Cup Week kicks off. The NBA starts. The World Series is on. The NBL starts. Then the cricket is on.

The AFL seems like a distant memory about 2 days after the final siren!

Not that long ago, winning the flag seemed like a glorious and momentous achievement in which the glory was basked in for months, even years afterwards.

Doesn't seem like that now.


Or maybe it's just me?

It depends who wins.

If its one of the AFL pet clubs that it has thrown mountains of assistance at to keep them competitive and playing finals. Then nah, no-one other then their supporters care and even then it must be a hollow win.

If you are a long term struggling club who hasn't been gifted a leg up by the AFL and hasn't won a flag for a very long time, then the win means a lot more. The Richmond recent first flag was a big deal. Bulldogs in 2016 was big. Melbourne winning in Perth, big.

 

[Pistol Night]

I’m still semi erect from 2023

 

[Freomaniac]

Its all i think about when it comes to footy... i am hanging out and so desperate for the day to see the crows win the flag again. i was 15 in 1998.. that is a long time ago. 2017 shattered me.. i haven't been the same supporter since that GF loss. it is the pinnacle of footy.. its why they play the game. winning the flag is everything IMO.

Well it gets harder to win a flag every season. Amount of sides, draft picks, recruitment and development of players, free agency and salary cap all play a part.

Crows were good enough to win flags in 1997-8.

Fell just short in the 2002, 2005, 2006 and 2012 prelims.

Grand final in 2017 proved how hard it is for a non Vic side to win.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

For diehard tragics, your team winning presumably is as significant and memorable than ever.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the rest of the world not caring as much as it used to.

I'm of the belief that majority of footy fans these days are largely 'theatre goers'.

The diehard tragics fans still exist, but they're a minority.

'Back in the day' pretty much the whole crowd at a game was diehard. Duffle coat wearing lunatics. The 'theatre goer' was a tiny minority.

I think it's almost the complete opposite these days.

And I think it's clear that the AFL knows this. The modern game is 100% catered for the 'theatre goer'.

And I think that's why a day or two after the GF, no one cares about the footy anymore and has moved their eyeballs to a different screen.

I think this is why the AFL flag no longer has that aura, mystique and ultimate glory attached to it.

 

[PhatBoy]

For diehard tragics, your team winning presumably is as significant and memorable than ever.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the rest of the world not caring as much as it used to.

I'm of the belief that majority of footy fans these days are largely 'theatre goers'.

The diehard tragics fans still exist, but they're a minority.

'Back in the day' pretty much the whole crowd at a game was diehard. Duffle coat wearing lunatics. The 'theatre goer' was a tiny minority.

I think it's almost the complete opposite these days.

And I think it's clear that the AFL knows this. The modern game is 100% catered for the 'theatre goer'.

And I think that's why a day or two after the GF, no one cares about the footy anymore and has moved their eyeballs to a different screen.

I think this is why the AFL flag no longer has that aura, mystique and ultimate glory attached to it.

The reason non die hard tragics don’t care as much is because a lot of them spend their days trying to discredit the achievements of any club that isn’t their own.
We see it on this forum day by day.

Fans of my own club do it:

Going back to let’s say, the Cats first flag in 2007:
07: ‘well your opposition didn’t even show up/Stephen Dank was working at your club (lol)’
08: ‘your opposition choked, they had to change the rules because you kept rushing behinds.’
09: ‘you played the least successful team in history.’
10: ‘you didn’t even win it, you drew it and came back a week later.’
11: ‘Collingwood are notorious chokers. Scott doesn’t deserve any credit for it.’
12: ‘Hawthorn choked.’
13: ‘Beat and interstate side.’
14: ‘Beat an interstate side.’
15: ‘Beat an interstate side.’
16: ‘Free kick Bulldogs.’
17: ‘Adelaide shit the bed, got to play on your home ground against an interstate side.’
18: ‘best team all year choked the prelim and had a worse case of dysentery than anything ever seen at sea during the maritime era of exploration.’
19: ‘GWS didn’t even leave Kingsford-Smith airport.’
20: Covid flag boring side
21: Not at the MCG
22: Interstate side who didn’t show up
23: Interstate side
24: neutral game but you beat a team of perennial GF chokers who never bothered attending.

It is seemingly impossible to get a mature collective response from what is by and large an adult posting population that just acknowledges that the winning team was the best on the day and deserved the premiership because people are so determined to poke holes in it. I’ve noticed it’s starting to seep into NRL fandom with critics of the Panthers now too

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

The reason non die hard tragics don’t care as much is because a lot of them spend their days trying to discredit the achievements of any club that isn’t their own.
We see it on this forum day by day.

Fans of my own club do it:

Going back to let’s say, the Cats first flag in 2007:
07: ‘well your opposition didn’t even show up/Stephen Dank was working at your club (lol)’
08: ‘your opposition choked, they had to change the rules because you kept rushing behinds.’
09: ‘you played the least successful team in history.’
10: ‘you didn’t even win it, you drew it and came back a week later.’
11: ‘Collingwood are notorious chokers. Scott doesn’t deserve any credit for it.’
12: ‘Hawthorn choked.’
13: ‘Beat and interstate side.’
14: ‘Beat an interstate side.’
15: ‘Beat an interstate side.’
16: ‘Free kick Bulldogs.’
17: ‘Adelaide shit the bed, got to play on your home ground against an interstate side.’
18: ‘best team all year choked the prelim and had a worse case of dysentery than anything ever seen at sea during the maritime era of exploration.’
19: ‘GWS didn’t even leave Kingsford-Smith airport.’
20: Covid flag boring side
21: Not at the MCG
22: Interstate side who didn’t show up
23: Interstate side
24: neutral game but you beat a team of perennial GF chokers who never bothered attending.

It is seemingly impossible to get a mature collective response from what is by and large an adult posting population that just acknowledges that the winning team was the best on the day and deserved the premiership because people are so determined to poke holes in it. I’ve noticed it’s starting to seep into NRL fandom with critics of the Panthers now too

I don't think many 'theatre goer' fans post on BigFooty. Particularly post-GF.

I'd be a relatively rare exception - but I'm odd because I follow pretty much any mainstream sport you can think of. So whilst I'm definitely in the 'theatre goer' category, I lean towards 'tragic theatre goer'.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Granted, I'm pushing 50. So I obviously see the world differently to how I saw it 30-40 years ago, but....

Does anyone care that much about winning the flag these days?

I mean in the lead up - yes.

On the day - yes.

In the immediate aftermath - yes.


But beyond that, do supporters give a shit? Do they care like they used to?

It seems that the world moves on very quickly after the AFL Grand Final these days.

The NRL comes on the week after. Cup Week kicks off. The NBA starts. The World Series is on. The NBL starts. Then the cricket is on.

The AFL seems like a distant memory about 2 days after the final siren!

Not that long ago, winning the flag seemed like a glorious and momentous achievement in which the glory was basked in for months, even years afterwards.

Doesn't seem like that now.


Or maybe it's just me?

Don’t think mystique is the right word but there is now no aftermath or basking in it.

The biggest event of the AFL season (media wise etc) is now trade period and that starts immediately after it, so everything moves on very quickly.

 

[Not a mere cat]

The reason non die hard tragics don’t care as much is because a lot of them spend their days trying to discredit the achievements of any club that isn’t their own.
We see it on this forum day by day.

Fans of my own club do it:

Going back to let’s say, the Cats first flag in 2007:
07: ‘well your opposition didn’t even show up/Stephen Dank was working at your club (lol)’
08: ‘your opposition choked, they had to change the rules because you kept rushing behinds.’
09: ‘you played the least successful team in history.’
10: ‘you didn’t even win it, you drew it and came back a week later.’
11: ‘Collingwood are notorious chokers. Scott doesn’t deserve any credit for it.’
12: ‘Hawthorn choked.’
13: ‘Beat and interstate side.’
14: ‘Beat an interstate side.’
15: ‘Beat an interstate side.’
16: ‘Free kick Bulldogs.’
17: ‘Adelaide shit the bed, got to play on your home ground against an interstate side.’
18: ‘best team all year choked the prelim and had a worse case of dysentery than anything ever seen at sea during the maritime era of exploration.’
19: ‘GWS didn’t even leave Kingsford-Smith airport.’
20: Covid flag boring side
21: Not at the MCG
22: Interstate side who didn’t show up
23: Interstate side
24: neutral game but you beat a team of perennial GF chokers who never bothered attending.

It is seemingly impossible to get a mature collective response from what is by and large an adult posting population that just acknowledges that the winning team was the best on the day and deserved the premiership because people are so determined to poke holes in it. I’ve noticed it’s starting to seep into NRL fandom with critics of the Panthers now too

Seen all of those. The mental gymnastics nuffies tie themselves into to discredit another teams win, usually just because it wasn’t their team. It’s pathetic and laughable

 

[Randall Stevens]

For diehard tragics, your team winning presumably is as significant and memorable than ever.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the rest of the world not caring as much as it used to.

I'm of the belief that majority of footy fans these days are largely 'theatre goers'.

The diehard tragics fans still exist, but they're a minority.

'Back in the day' pretty much the whole crowd at a game was diehard. Duffle coat wearing lunatics. The 'theatre goer' was a tiny minority.

I think it's almost the complete opposite these days.

And I think it's clear that the AFL knows this. The modern game is 100% catered for the 'theatre goer'.

And I think that's why a day or two after the GF, no one cares about the footy anymore and has moved their eyeballs to a different screen.

I think this is why the AFL flag no longer has that aura, mystique and ultimate glory attached to it.

What do you remember or think used to happen to suggest that 'the rest of the world' cared about the AFL flag more in the past?
I am just over 50, and to my mind nothing has really changed in that other than the fans of the teams which compete in the Grand Final the rest of us move on pretty quickly now, and did in the past too.

My memory is that in the 80's by the Tuesday after the GF there was very little if any reference to the GF in the papers or on TV. And really, once the game is won and analysed and the immediate celebrations are covered, what else is there to warrant extended media coverage or discussion by neutrals?

I have no doubt that footy lovers still reminisce about great teams and great Grand Finals of the recent or distant past as much as ever, but don't think we have ever 'basked' in a GF our teams weren't involved in for long periods in the immediate aftermath.

I do think that society in general has a shorter attention span than in the past, but that is true of anything. You mentioned the spring racing carnival in your OP, and right now that is huge. But by Monday next week, plenty of people who are right into the racing this week will struggle to tell you what won the Melbourne Cup.

I really don't think anything has changed insofar as how soon after the GF the footy world moves on, and I don't think the flag has lost any prestige or mystique at all.

 

[Randall Stevens]

Seen all of those. The mental gymnastics nuffies tie themselves into to discredit another teams win, usually just because it wasn’t their team. It’s pathetic and laughable

And when / if their team wins a flag it immediately becomes unquestionably the greatest achievement in the history of the sport!

My favourite is "You weren't the best team all year" (eg Hawks 2008, Dogs 2016), to which the easy and obvious answer is "you don't have to be".

 

[PhatBoy]

And when / if their team wins a flag it immediately becomes unquestionably the greatest achievement in the history of the sport!

My favourite is "You weren't the best team all year" (eg Hawks 2008, Dogs 2016), to which the easy and obvious answer is "you don't have to be".

100 per cent. You play all year to get yourself into the finals. You play the finals to get yourself into the grand final. What you do all year is designed to give yourself the best possible shot at winning on that last day of the season and sometimes it doesn’t work out that the ‘best’ in people’s minds, team, doesn’t get it done on that day. That doesn’t mean the team who did, worked any less towards it or deserved it any less. We cop it for not winning in 08 and many of our less intelligent fans also like to give it out to the Hawks by saying ‘you weren’t the best that year.’

Well who cares.

We weren’t the best for most of 2009.

We were an exceptional team in 2011 and its a nice little factoid that we actually went 3-0 against the Pies but it’s equally impressive that they didn’t drop a game against a single other team that year and for all intents and purposes were the best side that season. They just happened to not be on grand final day.

 

[Partridge]

We were an exceptional team in 2011 and its a nice little factoid that we actually went 3-0 against the Pies but it’s equally impressive that they didn’t drop a game against a single other team that year and for all intents and purposes were the best side that season. They just happened to not be on grand final day.

You also have the not infrequent phenomenon where there is a clear standout team for most if not all of the premiership season, but they get slowly overtaken at some point in September and on Grand final day it's pretty clear another team actually is better. Off the top of my head this would apply to:

• Brisbane in 2001
• Geelong in 2009
• Geelong in 2011
• Richmond in 2017 (people forget how good Adelaide were for most of that season)
• Richmond in 2019
• Brisbane in 2024

I'm sure there are plenty more.

 

[Partridge]

For diehard tragics, your team winning presumably is as significant and memorable than ever.

But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the rest of the world not caring as much as it used to.

I'm of the belief that majority of footy fans these days are largely 'theatre goers'.

The diehard tragics fans still exist, but they're a minority.

'Back in the day' pretty much the whole crowd at a game was diehard. Duffle coat wearing lunatics. The 'theatre goer' was a tiny minority.

I think it's almost the complete opposite these days.

And I think it's clear that the AFL knows this. The modern game is 100% catered for the 'theatre goer'.

And I think that's why a day or two after the GF, no one cares about the footy anymore and has moved their eyeballs to a different screen.

I think this is why the AFL flag no longer has that aura, mystique and ultimate glory attached to it.

I think it's also the oversaturation that never used to exist.

Once the Grand final was over, you really did have months without any footy. Cricket season. So by February/March you were really excited to see footy again. Now it feels like there's no break, combined with endless TV content, all saying the same thing, and really, for the most part now, we've seen it all before.

You add the constant hammering away at the historic culture of the game and replacing it with bland corporate nothingness, personally I've never felt less interested in the game. Worked overseas for months at a time twice in the last few years and did not miss footy one little bit. That would have been unthinkable to me when I was younger.

 

[Freomaniac]

And when / if their team wins a flag it immediately becomes unquestionably the greatest achievement in the history of the sport!

My favourite is "You weren't the best team all year" (eg Hawks 2008, Dogs 2016), to which the easy and obvious answer is "you don't have to be".

Well I will probably never know that...

 

[Mr Meeseeks]

I don't support any one team.

There's your answer. For a 50 year old, you dont seem to be too self aware.

I've been alive for 9 and can remember 7. Never gets old.

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