Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[The Warlord]

Oh for **** sake enough. He wrote that he’s known sovereign citizens and they were harmless, as have I btw.

What you’re doing now is text book straw manning to try and discredit Ferbs for some reason I don’t understand.

Are a small portion of sovereign citizens dangerous? Yes. Most are not.

By your logic, all Jews are genocidal lunatics because a small portion of them are because of their ties to Israel.

Chad believes he is responsible for "challenging" points people make on here for some imagined audience who view him as a hero for standing up to the deranged mob.

Its exactly what Tef did btw, except Tef also understood footy.

 

[Chadwiko]

Chad believes he is responsible for "challenging" points people make on here for some imagined audience who view him as a hero for standing up to the deranged mob.

Could be worse; I could believe I'm an expert on every topic and smugly position myself as an unimpeachable authority who has massive tantrums and resorts to personal attacks whenever someone dares to point out that I'm wrong.

Its exactly what Tef did btw, except Tef also understood footy.

Oh, the irony...

 

[Val Keating]

Novak talking about being a boy during the war.

 

[DesertRoo]

There are no facts in that document that support the contention that sovcits are an actual movement and have a higher propensity for violence than any other members of the general public.

In fact they have a lower propensity for sticking assault riffles in children's faces than the AFP do.

Meanwhile here in reality you continue to gaslight posters you disagree with because you have no facts or data to back up your contention.

Lol the closest counter culture movement the sovcits would be the hippies of the sixties. who’ve headed off to communes rather then be part of the current shitshow.
it’s no wonder people feel threatened by them for simply checking out.

 

[Sphynx]

There are no facts in that document that support the contention that sovcits are an actual movement and have a higher propensity for violence than any other members of the general public.

In fact they have a lower propensity for sticking assault riffles in children's faces than the AFP do.

Meanwhile here in reality you continue to gaslight posters you disagree with because you have no facts or data to back up your contention.

It ticks most of the boxes of a movement outside of a formal organizational structure etc

Ideological consistency, tactics and methods, public recognition, impact and influence (it’s caused changes to policing policies and practice) etc

Agree that they aren’t violent in general.

 

[The Warlord]

Hey just curious ferball and Val Keating - are you going to direct any of your lashing out in defense of sov-cits towards The Warlord as well?

Or is it not actually about the issue for you, and instead is just another excuse for you to attempt a pile-on directed at me?

Let me know!

You really do have terminal Main Character Syndrome don't you? The only person who directs pile-ins on you is YOU, when you pick dumb fights. You do it elsewhere on social media, pick fights over politics with other fans of a team you support.

On the subject of sovcits, cookers etc.

One of my best friends, someone I've known for over 30 years, is also in that milieu - very anti establishment, very anti "the law", not quite a cooker in that he gets his kids vaxxed etc, but very very much a crypto and anarchism kind of guy.

You know who the driving force in establishing that kind of personality was?

Your good mates in VicPol kicking the shit out of him relentlessly for the crime of being poor, living in a poor suburb with a bad reputation and growing up with mates who had surnames well known down the local jack shop.

He's also one of the smartest people I'll ever met, just because I don't agree with all his politics doesn't mean I don't find his POV interesting on stuff.

And we have fun, smoke weed, watch footy, talk about his kids. And no, just having him as friend doesn't mean I support everything he does lol, he's a ****ing Essendon who trained his kids to taunt me about North being shit as soon as they could talk.

SovCits/cookers are a very broad spectrum, with huge crossover between "strands". It used to be that conspiracy theorists were very siloed and often diametrically opposed, sometimes even violently.

But the internet/wider globalisation has meant there's heaps of cross pollination/fertilisation. ferball is correct when he says the Queensland cops identified the Wiembilla types as being heavily on the religious side, but they were also part of that wider cookerdom

This is to say that rather than believing in a single conspiracy theory, he appears to have subscribed to a multitude of conspiracy theories and to have interpreted almost everything in the context of these theories. Conspiracy theories referenced in his comments include anti-vaccine and anti-lockdown narratives, climate engineering and Sovereign Citizen conspiracies, conspiracies about microchips, the New World Order and Great Reset, the Illuminati, antisemitic conspiracy theories and more. Gun control conspiracy theories appear to feature heavily, as will be discussed further below.

This is a really interesting subject, and one I like discussing, but I think I'll do it with ferbs and Val Keating as discussing anything this nuances is impossible with you.

 

[Sphynx]

This is how international law works.

We have Israel the occupier and Palestine the occupied.

Palestinians are allowed to take up arms. It’s their legal right to do so.

So when civilians end up fighting back and get powerful (build a resistance) the west decides to label them as terrorists to take them out.

And so the cycle continues. Rinse and repeat.

Correct.

They have a right to use all available means in armed struggle in achieving self determination from a foreign occupier under the same international law.

With one key caveat, they don’t violate international humanitarian law and they don’t engage in terrorism. Which pretty much revolves around deliberate targeting of civilians and non combatants.

Which Hamas do on a regular basis.

Which Israel’s military and leadership do on a regular basis.

They should both be declared terrorist organizations by all of western society.

 

[Chadwiko]

You do it elsewhere on social media, pick fights over politics with other fans of a team you support.

Awww babe, you've been stalking my twitter again. Cute.

You're right though; I am happy to voice my political opinions on my personal twitter account.

And I didn't have to delete my main twitter account and setup a private burner out of embarrassment for getting exposed. Crazy!

And we have fun, smoke weed, watch footy, talk about his kids.

This is like the fifth time in the last two days you've mentioned smoking weed. It comes across as big divorced dad energy who just got offered a blunt for the first time in 30 years and you're excited because you think you're finally cool.

No one cares if you smoke weed dude lol.

SovCits/cookers are a very broad spectrum, with huge crossover between "strands". It used to be that conspiracy theorists were very siloed and often diametrically opposed, sometimes even violently.

Agreed.

And the simple fact is that sovcits are becoming increasingly radicalised and violent. It's an empirical fact, and one that law enforcement in this country (and others) are treating seriously.

As a reminder for what started this whole topic, ferball stated that sovcits were harmless and law enforcement didn't care about them. I simply pointed out that was incorrect, and you agreed with me.

But the internet/wider globalisation has meant there's heaps of cross pollination/fertilisation. ferball is correct when he says the Queensland cops identified the Wiembilla types as being heavily on the religious side, but they were also part of that wider cookerdom

Again, agreed. The Train brothers in QLD are a solid example of cookers who embraced multiple 'movements' and got radicalised. Were they "only" sovcits? No. Just like they weren't "only" religious fanatics.

This is a really interesting subject, and one I like discussing, but I think I'll do it with ferbs and Val Keating as discussing anything this nuances is impossible with you.

Sure go for it. Nothing stopping you folks from setting up your own little WhatsApp group chat and discussing these things as much as you want in private! Fully encourage it.

But if you discuss them in a public discussion forum, don't complain when other people participate.

 

[Sphynx]

Fighting back against this is terrorism though bro

No it’s not, they’d be perfectly justified in putting a bomb under that soldiers bed.

It’s when they murder children in their beds, shoot teenagers at music festivals and then snatch a few hundred civilian hostages that it crosses the line and reaches terrorism.

It’s pretty much the UN’s very definition of it.

You clearly consider that a proportionate response to their treatment over decades. I don’t.

Just like WW2 era Jews wouldn’t have been justified if they walked into a German primary school and killed everyone in it because of their horrific oppression.

“An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” has never been more sad and relevant than this conflict. Ironically one of the first times published in the Torah in the Tanakh (or not so ironic depending on your perspective and the Israeli’s conduct at the moment)

 

[travelli]

That means any of them that have served in the IDF to maintain the apartheid state.

It is mandatory military service.

Every israeli backpacker is pretty much a young person who has finished their service and travels the world, spending their cash, trying to shake out their miserable time in the military.

They often dive right into the alternative scene. Go to rainbow serpent and there are scores of israelis there. They love psy trance.

 

[giantroo]

100+ massacre


Graphic:

Spoiler

 

[ferball]

Could be worse; I could believe I'm an expert on every topic and smugly position myself as an unimpeachable authority who has massive tantrums and resorts to personal attacks whenever someone dares to point out that I'm wrong.



Oh, the irony...

Oh the irony....

 

[Sphynx]

100+ massacre


Graphic:

Spoiler

Hopefully Netanyahu has a meeting with the end of a rope at the end of all this.

 

[Chadwiko]

At least since they got accurate firearms.

Probably a tactic used since men started to war against each other

Just today, we've seen Russian propaganda talking about how they delay second/third drone strikes on targets to allow time for Ukrainian paramedics and firefighters to arrive, then that's when they conduct their follow up strikes.




It's abhorrent and I'm absolutely not excusing any side that acts in such a way, but the sad reality is basically every 'side' in any conflict ever has utilised similar tactics.

 

[ferball]

Lol the closest counter culture movement the sovcits would be the hippies of the sixties. who’ve headed off to communes rather then be part of the current shitshow.
it’s no wonder people feel threatened by them for simply checking out.

Yes Hippies are evil. Ask Chad.

Tune in. Turn on. Drop Out.

The removal of economic units from the machine is a direct threat AM's economic agenda!!!

 

[Chadwiko]

Hopefully Netanyahu has a meeting with the end of a rope at the end of all this.

Yeah, looking at the whole chess board and trying to imagine how this all 'ends', there's no scenario where Netanyahu and a bunch of top IDF generals get to enjoy a quiet retirement in Tel Aviv.

I don't know what will happen - I suspect they go into permanent hiding. But my preference would be that he rots in a jail cell for the rest of his days.

 

[Chadwiko]

Yes Hippies are evil. Ask Chad.

Tune in. Turn on. Drop Out.

The removal of economic units from the machine is a direct threat AM's economic agenda!!!

Classic strawman.

Sovcits =/= hippies, by the way.

 

[Val Keating]

It is mandatory military service.

Every israeli backpacker is pretty much a young person who has finished their service and travels the world, spending their cash, trying to shake out their miserable time in the military.

They often dive right into the alternative scene. Go to rainbow serpent and there are scores of israelis there. They love psy trance.

Jeez I didn’t know rainbow serpent was still going. It was a trip back in the 90’s. I think I was 16 when I went.

 

[Sphynx]

Yeah, looking at the whole chess board and trying to imagine how this all 'ends', there's no scenario where Netanyahu and a bunch of top IDF generals get to enjoy a quiet retirement in Tel Aviv.

I don't know what will happen - I suspect they go into permanent hiding. But my preference would be that he rots in a jail cell for the rest of his days.

Yeah, I think that unlikely.

He’s probably destined for a face to face meeting with an Iranian suicide drone at some point.

 

[travelli]

What is a secular Jewish nation? Are you talking about jewish ethnicity as opposed to religion? In what way would that state have a Jewish ethnic character if it's a state that upholds the rights of all people? Would such a state give Palestinians full citizenship, the right of return, and the restoration of their stolen property? How can a state have an ethnic character if it isn't in some way attempting to influence the demographics of its population through the restriction of rights to some at the expense of others?

What I'm talking about isn't a hypothetical, it's how Israel works now. They deny Palestinians those rights because if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to maintain a Jewish majority. In the totality of Israel and the land that it occupies, Jews are not the majority, even now after so many decades of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and other actions taken to limit the life and flourishing of Palestinian society. They're only able to maintain a majority hold on their "democracy" by depriving the people whose land they occupy and those they've ethnically cleansed (and their descendants) full citizenship and democratic rights, which I believe is clearly why they don't; because to the majority of Israelis, and undeniably those in charge, that majority jewish status, and the privileging of jews above other groups is what makes Israel "the jewish state".

Inevitably, if that state began to apply those rights evenly to Palestinians, it would lose that Jewish majority status. In your eyes, would that be maintaining Israel's status as a secular Jewish nation?

that is past now. Israeli leadership has screwed it up so badly that even the moderate israelis know that one state will never work and the only way israel can ensure its safety is by claiming all of gaza.

Which of course was the plan all along

 

[Chadwiko]

Relevant by the way (this just hit Twitter);

a) One of the few times I believe Trump
b) Pretty much confirms other reporting that says the similar; that because Biden has been trying (in vain) to get Israel to agree to a ceasefire and Netanyahu is refusing, the relationship between the US and Israel is rapidly deteriorating.

 

[ferball]

It ticks most of the boxes of a movement outside of a formal organizational structure etc

So does AA.

Ideological consistency, tactics and methods, public recognition, impact and influence (it’s caused changes to policing policies and practice) etc

What changes are they?

Agree that they aren’t violent in general.

Okay this is one example. I used to pick this guy up when he was hitching to Nimbin but got to know him over the years. Has dreads down to his back, carries on like an expert in these matters. He is a gentle person, doesn't fight, donates his time, effort and money to local causes in the town just don't get him started on this stuff cos he will go on and on about it for hours.

Talks about how he got off some minor drug thing because of it. I'm thinking the magistrate thought "This guy is mental and he'll barely get a fine, we have enough real shit to deal with as it is," and chucked the whole thing out. I can think of about 10 or 20 people with similar attitudes. Most of them are harmless. The one or two that aren't usually get into fights over the same sort of stuff people get into fights about everywhere.

None of them want to start a revolution, most just want to be left alone in the bush.

 

[ferball]

Correct.

They have a right to use all available means in armed struggle in achieving self determination from a foreign occupier under the same international law.

With one key caveat, they don’t violate international humanitarian law and they don’t engage in terrorism. Which pretty much revolves around deliberate targeting of civilians and non combatants.

Which Hamas do on a regular basis.

Which Israel’s military and leadership do on a regular basis.

They should both be declared terrorist organizations by all of western society.

Only one of them has been.

 

[Val Keating]

Relevant by the way (this just hit Twitter);

a) One of the few times I believe Trump
b) Pretty much confirms other reporting that says the similar; that because Biden has been trying (in vain) to get Israel to agree to a ceasefire and Netanyahu is refusing, the relationship between the US and Israel is rapidly deteriorating.

I’d be surprised if Biden is talking to anyone in earnest anymore. It would be Harris.

 

[Sphynx]

What is a secular Jewish nation? Are you talking about jewish ethnicity as opposed to religion? In what way would that state have a Jewish ethnic character if it's a state that upholds the rights of all people? Would such a state give Palestinians full citizenship, the right of return, and the restoration of their stolen property? How can a state have an ethnic character if it isn't in some way attempting to influence the demographics of its population through the restriction of rights to some at the expense of others?

What I'm talking about isn't a hypothetical, it's how Israel works now. They deny Palestinians those rights because if they didn't, they wouldn't be able to maintain a Jewish majority. In the totality of Israel and the land that it occupies, Jews are not the majority, even now after so many decades of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and other actions taken to limit the life and flourishing of Palestinian society. They're only able to maintain a majority hold on their "democracy" by depriving the people whose land they occupy and those they've ethnically cleansed (and their descendants) full citizenship and democratic rights, which I believe is clearly why they don't; because to the majority of Israelis, and undeniably those in charge, that majority jewish status, and the privileging of jews above other groups is what makes Israel "the jewish state".

Inevitably, if that state began to apply those rights evenly to Palestinians, it would lose that Jewish majority status. In your eyes, would that be maintaining Israel's status as a secular Jewish nation?

Unfortunately probably the only real secular state in the Middle East is the one Israel is intent on bombing the shit out of and invading.

This also depends on your position of whether non-secular states are right or wrong and your position on freedom and right to self governance.

They aren’t really a possibility in the region for the most part because of Sharia law.

Most of what you have described regarding Israel would be true of Palestine if you turned the tables on the occupation. Dhimmi’s (non muslims) have most of the restrictions on them you have described under Sharia law. Second class citizens, different tax structures, no right of true ownership, no right to a defence against a Muslim if non-Muslim under classical Sharia law etc etc

80% of Irans Christian population didn’t flee after the 1979 Islamic Republic and constitutional adoption of Sharia law because they were being treated well….. With big numbers of those Assyrian Christians immigrating to Australia.