The Nuclear debate

[peetoo]

What are Labor doing to turn things around? They've had a few years now and its gotten far worse under their watch.

What Labor projects can you think of where it didnt end up massively over budget and massively over time?

Its all governments. Its what they do now. Hand over fistloads of money to everyone because it makes everyone happy - except taxpayers who have to pay for it. But we dont count.



Yeah, and Im sure the unions get nothing out of it... with lollypop holders earning $120k a year...

Everyone sucks at the government teat. Its not just consultants or unions. They are all stealing from us.

Australia the European version was started as a government project. It always was

 

[QuietB]

What are Labor doing to turn things around? They've had a few years now and its gotten far worse under their watch.

What Labor projects can you think of where it didnt end up massively over budget and massively over time?

Its all governments. Its what they do now. Hand over fistloads of money to everyone because it makes everyone happy - except taxpayers who have to pay for it. But we dont count.



Yeah, and Im sure the unions get nothing out of it... with lollypop holders earning $120k a year...

Everyone sucks at the government teat. Its not just consultants or unions. They are all stealing from us.

Now we have a bit more to unpack.

All of a sudden you are worried about debt and deficit again - it was the Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison Liberals that increased national debt from $200B to $1T - that is an increase of 500% if maths is not your thing. And what the hell did we get for that? Anything?

Labor has run 2 budget surpluses since your incompetent Liberals left office. How is that not turning things around?

Lollypop holders getting $120k a year is just another grand failure of neoliberal economics. Lollypop holders getting $120k (or more) has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with total market failures.

All you are capable of is spewing Liberal talking points without understanding what those talking points even mean.

 

[QuietB]

This is a good read;

Nuclear circus

 

[HairyO]

Now we have a bit more to unpack.

All of a sudden you are worried about debt and deficit again - it was the Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison Liberals that increased national debt from $200B to $1T - that is an increase of 500% if maths is not your thing. And what the hell did we get for that? Anything?

Labor has run 2 budget surpluses since your incompetent Liberals left office. How is that not turning things around?

Lollypop holders getting $120k a year is just another grand failure of neoliberal economics. Lollypop holders getting $120k (or more) has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with total market failures.

All you are capable of is spewing Liberal talking points without understanding what those talking points even mean.

All of a sudden?

Governments wasting money isnt new. Its been getting steadily worse and worse over the last couple of decades to the point now where literally everything is massively more expensive and massively more delayed than claimed when announced. And even the announced costs and timing are overpriced and far too slow.

You're giving a little away about yourself here though. Im critical of both sides. I havent even voted Liberal in any election in probably 4 or 5 years now because they have lost the plot. So maybe work on some new lines.

 

[peetoo]

Now we have a bit more to unpack.

All of a sudden you are worried about debt and deficit again - it was the Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison Liberals that increased national debt from $200B to $1T - that is an increase of 500% if maths is not your thing. And what the hell did we get for that? Anything?

Labor has run 2 budget surpluses since your incompetent Liberals left office. How is that not turning things around?

Lollypop holders getting $120k a year is just another grand failure of neoliberal economics. Lollypop holders getting $120k (or more) has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with total market failures.

All you are capable of is spewing Liberal talking points without understanding what those talking points even mean.

And the lollipop holder on $120k will still struggle to afford housing

It’s insulting to say some jobs should not have a decent living wage

Also one of the taxpayers being crapped on

 

[QuietB]

And the lollipop holder on $120k will still struggle to afford housing

It’s insulting to say some jobs should not have a decent living wage

Also one of the taxpayers being crapped on

I agree - but a teacher or a nurse is dreaming of that sort of wage.

 

[MrsBlueSky]

And the lollipop holder on $120k will still struggle to afford housing

It’s insulting to say some jobs should not have a decent living wage

Also one of the taxpayers being crapped on

Where is an ad for the $120k lollipop job? Do you think it's a gov't job?
Even if you can find an ad, which I reckon you can't, that's a mere drop in the ocean compared to building a nuclear power plant.

 

[dewcefault]

I agree - but a teacher or a nurse is dreaming of that sort of wage.

Teacher salaries - Department of Education

www.education.wa.edu.au

I was actually surprised at how relatively high teachers salaries can be that's not to say I think they are well paid for the important work that they do.
For those that don't want to click on the link a senior teacher in WA can make around $120k. I don't know what it takes to become a senior teacher.

 

[QuietB]

Teacher salaries - Department of Education

www.education.wa.edu.au

I was actually surprised at how relatively high teachers salaries can be that's not to say I think they are well paid for the important work that they do.
For those that don't want to click on the link a senior teacher in WA can make around $120k. I don't know what it takes to become a senior teacher.

More than it takes to become a senior lollypop holder

 

[nut]

NSW getting a massive 8 battery

 

[dewcefault]

More than it takes to become a senior lollypop holder

very true

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Lollypop holders getting $120k a year is just another grand failure of neoliberal economics. Lollypop holders getting $120k (or more) has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with total market failures.

It's got everything to do with unions because the non-union traffic controllers under non-union EBAs aren't getting $120k. Nobody on a union construction site is earning less than that, except the engineers and accountants who aren't unionised.

 

[Shane Sheridan]

Teacher salaries - Department of Education

www.education.wa.edu.au

I was actually surprised at how relatively high teachers salaries can be that's not to say I think they are well paid for the important work that they do.
For those that don't want to click on the link a senior teacher in WA can make around $120k. I don't know what it takes to become a senior teacher.

10 years service then either 48 hours of so of Professional Development (the case bout 10 years ago when i did it), or holding and presenting a TAFE Certificate Course qualification. Then you have an added role to justify having the Senior Teacher pay scale each year.

 

[Sphynx]

Now we have a bit more to unpack.

All of a sudden you are worried about debt and deficit again - it was the Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison Liberals that increased national debt from $200B to $1T - that is an increase of 500% if maths is not your thing. And what the hell did we get for that? Anything?

Labor has run 2 budget surpluses since your incompetent Liberals left office. How is that not turning things around?

Lollypop holders getting $120k a year is just another grand failure of neoliberal economics. Lollypop holders getting $120k (or more) has nothing to do with unions and everything to do with total market failures.

All you are capable of is spewing Liberal talking points without understanding what those talking points even mean.

Clearly written by someone with absolutely 0 real world experience.

 

[Sphynx]

Nuclear is not a viable solution.

1 - It is too expensive.

Liberals claim they can build one for $15B. The first problem with that is they can't. The second problem is you need to build two of them (shutdowns, maintenance, etc. - and this ignores that WA is not even connected to the East Coast) So even if they can build them for $15B each it is minimum $30B + WA (where nuclear makes less than zero sense).

2 - You have to add the cost of building a nuclear industry. Give the the anti-intellectual commitment of the Liberals I have no idea how they would even achieve this. But given the anti-intellectual commitment of the Liberals and their general incompetence they would probably just build it anyway.

3 - You have to add the cost of dealing with the waste. Australia cannot even manage basic recycling. Politically this is almost impossible.

4 - You have to deal with the politics. States decide and the Feds and the States do not get on at the best of times. Currently we have 5 Labor state governments and one Liberal government (Taz) who already has energy security from renewables. It is close to politically impossible. The LNP in Queensland have already said they will not support it. It is difficult to see a state like Victoria ever supporting it.

5 - Given the cost of the above nuclear can never be price competitive unless it is hugely subsidised - ie. more public debt.

5 - There is the small issue of time. There is no way to achieve all of the above (it will take way over a decade just to resolve the politics) before the coal fired power stations shit themselves forever.

It is simply not a viable option. It cannot be done.

1- You act as if a federal project of that scale is unachievable or unprecedented. It's not. Victoria was about to embark on the most expensive health infrastructure project (state project....) on the planet that would have rivaled a small nuclear power station (if it wasn't canned a few weeks ago because Andrews bankrupted the state).

2 - They are already investing heavily in building a sovereign nuclear industry and they need to do it quickly. It's required for the Nuclear Subs, so would make sense in terms of cross investment.

3 - Well we've never had to deal with Nuclear waste, so it's jumping at shadows.

5 - Of course it's going to be public debt, like any other major infrastructure project of this scale in this country.

6 - The same issue applies to every other scenario, including renewables. A major failure of the sitting state governments, particularly the ALP in Victoria that have been out of government for what 9 years of the last 40 in Victoria?

 

[QuietB]

1- You act as if a federal project of that scale is unachievable or unprecedented. It's not. Victoria was about to embark on the most expensive health infrastructure project (state project....) on the planet that would have rivaled a small nuclear power station (if it wasn't canned a few weeks ago because Andrews bankrupted the state).

2 - They are already investing heavily in building a sovereign nuclear industry and they need to do it quickly. It's required for the Nuclear Subs, so would make sense in terms of cross investment.

3 - Well we've never had to deal with Nuclear waste, so it's jumping at shadows.

5 - Of course it's going to be public debt, like any other major infrastructure project of this scale in this country.

6 - The same issue applies to every other scenario, including renewables. A major failure of the sitting state governments, particularly the ALP in Victoria that have been out of government for what 9 years of the last 40 in Victoria?

Where did I say it was unachievable? I said it was too expensive. Which it is.

You have not addressed the issue of cost - “of course it is going to be public debt” - awesome. In one point you complain about “Andrew’s bankrupting the state” and without a hint of irony a few points later you just want the cost of the whole thing added to public debt - I assume you are ok with bankrupting the country

And you did not address the issue of the politics. It is illegal in Australia and Australia votes no on everything.

Clearly written by someone with absolutely 0 real world experience.

No I was never in the Young Liberals

 

[Sphynx]

Where did I say it was unachievable? I said it was too expensive. Which it is.

You have not addressed the issue of cost - “of course it is going to be public debt” - awesome. In one point you complain about “Andrew’s bankrupting the state” and without a hint of irony a few points later you just want the cost of the whole thing added to public debt - I assume you are ok with bankrupting the country

And you did not address the issue of the politics. It is illegal in Australia and Australia votes no on everything.


No I was never in the Young Liberals

1. Why is it too expensive? Relative to what are you basing this view?

2. The Federal Government is not Victoria last time I checked. I treat them differently, particularly for investment of this scale.

3. Nuclear Power Plants are illegal. Not a sovereign nuclear industry, a lot of water could go under the bridge before having to deal with the wording contained in the EPBCA Act. Especially considering the perfectly legal investment that will be made for new nuclear reactors required for the subs.

4. Unsure what you are referring to here and no idea what it has to do with your comment about the Unions influence on the cost of construction in the country.

 

[QuietB]

1. Why is it too expensive? Relative to what are you basing this view?

2. The Federal Government is not Victoria last time I checked. I treat them differently, particularly for investment of this scale.

3. Nuclear Power Plants are illegal. Not a sovereign nuclear industry, a lot of water could go under the bridge before having to deal with the wording contained in the EPBCA Act. Especially considering the perfectly legal investment that will be made for new nuclear reactors required for the subs.

4. Unsure what you are referring to here and no idea what it has to do with your comment about the Unions influence on the cost of construction in the country.

CSIRO releases 2023-24 GenCost report

Significant industry participation drives key insights on future electricity generation technologies while renewables remain lowest cost

www.csiro.au

Nuclear circus

 

[QuietB]

1. Why is it too expensive? Relative to what are you basing this view?

2. The Federal Government is not Victoria last time I checked. I treat them differently, particularly for investment of this scale.

3. Nuclear Power Plants are illegal. Not a sovereign nuclear industry, a lot of water could go under the bridge before having to deal with the wording contained in the EPBCA Act. Especially considering the perfectly legal investment that will be made for new nuclear reactors required for the subs.

4. Unsure what you are referring to here and no idea what it has to do with your comment about the Unions influence on the cost of construction in the country.

 

[Sphynx]

Of course electricity costs will be cheaper to produce via renewables than Nuclear and Gas, Black/Brown Coal.

It's not the only factor to consider though.

Now tell me how renewables is going to service industry and manufacturing, currently at an all time low in this country, but an industry the government wants to supercharge investment in, in the near future? Without completely cooking these facilities?

Secondly, how are you currently servicing industrial renewable projects? There's no infrastructure for it, the relatively small industrial scale renewable projects are piggy backed off exisiting infrastructure, which has ****ed it.

Nothing exists in the country for it and these are not single site production facilities like a Coal Fire Power Station or Nuclear Power Station.

A lot of the same environmental and local government issues are interchangeable between renewables and Nuclear.

You know what local communities don't want? Wind Farms.

You know what local environmental groups also don't want? Thousands of kilometers of new high voltage power lines everywhere (which will be required for to meet demand if moving fully renewable).

Not everywhere is a 3 bedroom house, like everyone just assumes is the problem and is solved with some solar panels plonked on a roof.

There are some facilities that require high demand constant power supply, alternatives are not an option as it completely destroys the facilities and manufacturing lines if power even stops for a few hours.

 

[peetoo]

Of course electricity costs will be cheaper to produce via renewables than Nuclear and Gas, Black/Brown Coal.

It's not the only factor to consider though.

Now tell me how renewables is going to service industry and manufacturing, currently at an all time low in this country, but an industry the government wants to supercharge investment in, in the near future? Without completely cooking these facilities?

Secondly, how are you currently servicing industrial renewable projects? There's no infrastructure for it, the relatively small industrial scale renewable projects are piggy backed off exisiting infrastructure, which has ****ed it.

Nothing exists in the country for it and these are not single site production facilities like a Coal Fire Power Station or Nuclear Power Station.

A lot of the same environmental and local government issues are interchangeable between renewables and Nuclear.

You know what local communities don't want? Wind Farms.

You know what local environmental groups also don't want? Thousands of kilometers of new high voltage power lines everywhere (which will be required for to meet demand if moving fully renewable).

Not everywhere is a 3 bedroom house, like everyone just assumes is the problem and is solved with some solar panels plonked on a roof.

There are some facilities that require high demand constant power supply, alternatives are not an option as it completely destroys the facilities and manufacturing lines if power even stops for a few hours.

There’s plenty of roofs with no solar. Particularly daytime occupied. Offices schools etc

 

[Sphynx]

There’s plenty of roofs with no solar. Particularly daytime occupied. Offices schools etc

Whats your point?

 

[peetoo]

Whats your point?

I think you were a bit dismissive of rooftop. Not much transmission needed there

 

[QuietB]

One day someone somewhere is going to nail one of these solutions and gas, coal and nuclear will be dead overnight.

 

[Seeds]

One day someone somewhere is going to nail one of these solutions and gas, coal and nuclear will be dead overnight.

They already have nailed the solution. Renewables with batteries is now a cheaper option then fossil files. The technology is already commercial.

It just takes time to turn over the existing capital stock because sunk capital is free.