The Nuclear debate

[Johnny Bananas]

Also I haven't seen any costing for proper and permanent nuclear waste disposal from the libs.
Is this included in the proposal?
This doesn't seem to figure in the discussion in the press at all.
Usually nuclear proponents forget to cost this. It always is vastly more expensive than expectations. In fact it's so difficult and expensive almost no nuclear waste has been stored properly anywhere in the world. The US has tens of thousand of tons of waste in temporary 'intermediate storage' awaiting a solution.

As nuclear waste piles up, scientists seek the best long-term storage solutions

Chemical & Engineering News (C&EN): Keeping you up to date with the chemistry news that matters most. Published by the American Chemical Society.

cen.acs.org

“It’s a societal problem that has been handed down to us from our parents’ generation,” says Frankel, who is a materials scientist at the Ohio State University. “And we are—more or less—handing it to our children.”

And speaking of waste, Dutton is blatantly lying about how much his reactors will produce.

Dutton said a reactor’s waste would fill a Coke can. Try 27,000 of them

Australia would face a big nuclear waste task under the opposition’s energy policy, which would generate hundreds of barrels of spent nuclear fuel a year.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

 

[CD Xbow]

And speaking of waste, Dutton is blatantly lying about how much his reactors will produce.

Dutton said a reactor’s waste would fill a Coke can. Try 27,000 of them

Australia would face a big nuclear waste task under the opposition’s energy policy, which would generate hundreds of barrels of spent nuclear fuel a year.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

No surprise. Gets away with it because large parts of the media are Lib fan bois. These guys got away with the Sports Rorts, Robodebt, the minister for the multiverse, climate change denial and all the sexual misconduct episodes in parliament house. If Labour had been invoved in anything like that they would be crucified.

PS - I'm still having trouble cleaning the mess up in the chapel.

 

[Festerz]

No surprise. Gets away with it because large parts of the media are Lib fan bois.

Yep. But all credit to Nine Media for chasing down Dutton's nuclear BS relentlessly. That article linked by Johnny Bananas is as thorough a factual debunking of a major pre-election policy announcement as I can remember. And this is a media organisation which up until just a few months ago had Liberal stalwart Peter Costello as its Chair.

Take this paragraph for example:

A typical large-scale nuclear reactor, with a 1-gigawatt capacity, usually generates 30 tonnes of spent fuel a year, according to the World Nuclear Association. This nuclear waste would fill 10 cubic metres, or 10,000 litres.

The opposition claims it would have its first nuclear reactor up and running by 2037, and the entire fleet – on up to seven sites with multiple reactors on each – built before 2050.

When all reactors are operating, the 14 gigawatts of nuclear capacity would produce 140 cubic metres, or 140,000 litres, of waste a year.
The opposition has stated their reactors have an 80-year lifespan, which means they will generate 70,400 barrels over their lifetime.

No wonder the Queensland LNP are backing away from Dutton's nuclear plans at break neck speed. They see that this is a political nightmare and Queensland’s Deputy Premier has yet again ruled out support for the nuclear plan. Speaking to reporters on Tuesday, Jarrod Bleijie said the federal Opposition Leader’s $331bn promise to build seven nuclear reactors by 2050 was a “Canberra battle” that was not supported by the Queensland LNP.

“We’ve said we weren’t going to be part of that battle, and we didn’t support that plan,” he said.

“Our plan is what’s going to drive down prices for Queenslanders sooner rather than later.

“We have our plan, Peter Dutton (and) the Opposition can have their plan, but that’s not our plan.”

Grilled as to what would happen in the event of a Coalition win, Mr Bleijie said: “It’s hypothetical who’s going to win the election”.



And then there's the mounting anger in Western Australia:



Both WA and Queensland are critical to Dutton's hopes of winning the 2025 Federal election of course.

 

[QuietB]

And speaking of waste, Dutton is blatantly lying about how much his reactors will produce.

Dutton said a reactor’s waste would fill a Coke can. Try 27,000 of them

Australia would face a big nuclear waste task under the opposition’s energy policy, which would generate hundreds of barrels of spent nuclear fuel a year.

www.brisbanetimes.com.au

Dutton will say he only talking about the atoms - and the media will lap it up

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Well the world is on track to install 30% more solar this year than 2023…. China doubled production in 2023.
I do agree that we can’t compete with china on price, but having a solar manufacturing industry will be as strategic as having an oil refinery…
We are about to start producing sodium battery cells, which is exciting.

This is an interesting article on Solar growth in other countries, including China...

Fossil fuels are being 'eaten alive' by the solar rush

Satellite imagery reveals the staggering rise of solar farms around the world in recent years. Can Australia get on board?

www.abc.net.au

 

[nut]

This is an interesting article on Solar growth on other countries, including China...

Fossil fuels are being 'eaten alive' by the solar rush

Satellite imagery reveals the staggering rise of solar farms around the world in recent years. Can Australia get on board?

www.abc.net.au

China deserves more credit than what they get … there’s a weird narrative that they are subsidising everything to control the world… lol.


Now we have the US, Canada and most of Europe imposing tariffs on solar, Batteries and EVs… at a time when we are in a climate crisis… taxing your citizens and preventing them from getting cheaper and better options.
Anytime soon we will see Dutton come out and propose Tariffs too… anything to help the fossil fuel industry survive longer…

 

[sdfc]

China deserves more credit than what they get … there’s a weird narrative that they are subsidising everything to control the world… lol.

Now we have the US, Canada and most of Europe imposing tariffs on solar, Batteries and EVs… at a time when we are in a climate crisis… taxing your citizens and preventing them from getting cheaper and better options.
Anytime soon we will see Dutton come out and propose Tariffs too… anything to help the fossil fuel industry survive longer…

No one is serious about net zero 2050. There's a stack of solar and wind capacity in Europe and the US not connected to the grid because investing in transmission wasn't a priority. It's a shit show.

 

[nut]

“These contributions demonstrate how renewables are increasingly supporting grid stability even during peak summer evening demand periods.“

Wind and solar smash output records as grid demand hits new highs in midst of heatwave

Updated: South Australia smashes demand record, but prices remain negative because wind and solar supplied nearly all its power needs, as main grid also hits new peaks in heatwave.

reneweconomy.com.au

 

[SaintsSeptember]

“These contributions demonstrate how renewables are increasingly supporting grid stability even during peak summer evening demand periods.“

Wind and solar smash output records as grid demand hits new highs in midst of heatwave

Updated: South Australia smashes demand record, but prices remain negative because wind and solar supplied nearly all its power needs, as main grid also hits new peaks in heatwave.

reneweconomy.com.au

Article says they often have that much energy available, but not as much demand.
With the batteries supplying as much as 217mwh at the peak time, the 1.1-1.3GWh of wind was enough to get them through without turning up the gas . ( Don't know why but there was 80mwh of gas used pretty much 24 hours ).
The battery use peaked at 7:30-8:00om and ramped down until it wasn't used after 10pm ( Depleted )?
2:30 in the afternoon prices started going up. Strangely there was a price spike at 3am last night, where it was $380/mwh for a short time.

If you were buying wholesale price yesterday you easily paid less than those who bought at the average price.

 

[Gough]

Feels like our energy market has ended up like our housing market and has lost sight of providing an essential service in pursuit of profit

 

[SaintsSeptember]

In Victoria they produced more wind electricity than S.A, but of course its a much bigger market.
They had the Coal turned down a fair bit, and used hydro as a buffer when the spike came and they needed to bring more coal online.

( 128MW battery and 5 hundred and something MW of hydro Battery still in use at 11pm ).

 

[Sttew]

ALP now resorting to a misleading and irresponsible anti-nuclear scare campaign.

30 countries around the world including our allies and major trading partners are using 400 reactors around the world.

Sign of desperation by the ALP?

 

[Gavin Excell]

ALP now resorting to a misleading and irresponsible anti-nuclear scare campaign.

Sign of desperation?

Strategically I'm not sure it's the best approach. There's a million holes in the policy already to be going the three eye fish route

 

[nut]

ALP now resorting to a misleading and irresponsible anti-nuclear scare campaign.

30 countries around the world including our allies and major trading partners are using 400 reactors around the world.

Sign of desperation by the ALP?

Yep … poor Dutton … the victim again

 

[nut]

In Victoria they produced more wind electricity than S.A, but of course its a much bigger market.
They had the Coal turned down a fair bit, and used hydro as a buffer when the spike came and they needed to bring more coal online.

( 128MW battery and 5 hundred and something MW of hydro Battery still in use at 11pm ).

Tomorrow VIC is going to experience low demands again

 

[SaintsSeptember]

ALP now resorting to a misleading and irresponsible anti-nuclear scare campaign.

30 countries around the world including our allies and major trading partners are using 400 reactors around the world.

Sign of desperation by the ALP?

Bullshit flying thick and fast from both sides. Then there are the facts.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Tomorrow VIC is going to experience low demands again

Today ( 10am ) they are on 49% renewable , not counting rooftop. ( AEMO don't include rooftop in their figures ).

 

[swingdog]

ALP now resorting to a misleading and irresponsible anti-nuclear scare campaign.

30 countries around the world including our allies and major trading partners are using 400 reactors around the world.

Sign of desperation by the ALP?

My guess is they think, well Dutton has just made shit up and is hardly getting called on it by the media, so why not?

Playing by the 'rules' only works when both sides do it and the umpire is willing to call bullshit. That doesn't happen in politics much these days.

 

[swingdog]

Today ( 10am ) they are on 49% renewable , not counting rooftop. ( AEMO don't include rooftop in their figures ).

That seems weird given Australia's particular renewables profile - any idea why?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Feels like our energy market has ended up like our housing market and has lost sight of providing an essential service in pursuit of profit

In Victoria this happened sometime during the 1980s. Privatisation.
Power Generators - Sell at a profit.
Private transmission company - make a profit.
Retailers - don't do much more than send you a bill and make money.
AEMO - cover their costs.

Imagine if the whole setup was only recouping costs.

A lot of the old SEC staff were employed by the new owners, but those who were experts at stuff like preventive maintenance ( and SEC were cutting edge at that ) went by the wayside.
Cheaper to wait for things to break , then consider whether to fix it or not.
Some people point out that Coal power stations aren't reliable, but management is a lot to do with that.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That seems weird given Australia's particular renewables profile - any idea why?

If you have solar on your roof , ( home or business ) its not going through the meter , so they don't know how much self generated electricity you are using.

 

[nut]

That seems weird given Australia's particular renewables profile - any idea why?

This is NSW this morning 80% renewables ..
so are going to turn off renewables to add in nuclear?

Feed in tariff is -1c to try and limit more rooftop solar… luckily I’m charging my home battery so I’m still taking advantage of my solar… but that will fill in an hour. So my inverter will curtail my excess solar … which is why we need more storage …which is coming.

 

[Festerz]

Got a bit excited in the supermarket when I quickly glanced a copy of the local Murdoch tabloid with the headline 'Nuclear Fiction!'.

How bad must it be if even the Murdoch rags are attacking Dutton's discredited nuclear energy plan I thought. Has Rupert died in his sleep overnight and Elisabeth, his sane child with a conscience, taken control of his media empire?

No such luck. Turns out the 'Nuclear Fiction' and 'opinion over science' headlines on the front and third pages of his capital city tabloids and The Australian newspaper and dominating this morning's Sky News reports were actually an attack on Bowen for referencing an admittedly weird video posted to the Australian Labor Party’s Instagram account featuring Medical Association for Prevention of War vice president Dr Margaret Beavis who said there was a “very clear” risk to health from nuclear power plants.

 

[Sttew]

Got a bit excited in the supermarket when I quickly glanced a copy of the local Murdoch tabloid with the headline 'Nuclear Fiction!'.

How bad must it be if even the Murdoch rags are attacking Dutton's discredited nuclear energy plan I thought. Has Rupert died in his sleep overnight and Elisabeth, his sane child with a conscience, taken control of his media empire?

No such luck. Turns out the 'Nuclear Fiction' and 'opinion over science' headlines on the front and third pages of his capital city tabloids and The Australian newspaper and dominating this morning's Sky News reports were actually an attack on Bowen for referencing an admittedly weird video posted to the Australian Labor Party’s Instagram account featuring Medical Association for Prevention of War vice president Dr Margaret Beavis who said there was a “very clear” risk to health from nuclear power plants.


View attachment 2190861

The scare campaign by former Greens candidate and anti-nuclear zealot Dr Margaret Beavis a GP, who just happens to be Co Chair of ICAN Australia · International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons (ICAN), has been completely discredited by former ANSTO CEO, Dr Adi Paterson, which is no surprise, and by Mark Schneider (an industry veteran who has worked at 8 nuclear reactors over 20 years), and by epidemiologist, Amy Berrington who is from the Institute of Cancer Research.

Would you not think Berrington may have some genuine insight? Maybe not on this board LOL

Beavis claims the cancers people contract living near reactors are not like typical cancers, as "they blend in with other cancers that happen". Could the link be any more spurious? As Dr Paterson said, "we have all grown up... in low level radiation that is all around us all the time. We have a large community of nuclear medicine specialists who use radiation everyday to diagnose cancers."

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The scare campaign by anti-nuclear zealot Dr Margaret Beavis a GP who just happens to be Co Chair of ICAN Australia · International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons (ICAN), has been completely discredited by former ANSTO CEO, Dr Adi Paterson, which is no surprise, and by Mark Schneider (an industry veteran who has worked at 8 nuclear reactors over 20 years), and by epidemiologist, Amy Berrington who is from the Institute of Cancer Research.

Would you not think Berrington may have some genuine insight? Maybe not on this board LOL

Beavis claims the cancers people contract living near reactors are not like typical cancers, as "they blend in with other cancers that happen". Could the link be any more spurious? As Dr Paterson said, "we have all grown up... in low level radiation that is all around us all the time. We have a large community of nuclear medicine specialists who use radiation everyday to diagnose cancers."

I want her to debate it with Dutton, just so we can have "Butthead and Beavis" debate.