The war against renewable energy
- Thread starter Upton Sinclair
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When they start getting too cheap, but you still want more in reserve, how do you get people to invest?
Why would you build a solar farm if you could never pay for it?
We always get these reports after a windy period, but then it changes, just like the weather.
( Britain getting 15GW of wind electricity atm ).
- Mar 16, 2002
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Not all of its free … it’s the excess that’s free… storage will create a demand for the excess.
So it won't be free, thank you.
Of course some of it will be, because we need to have enough solar/wind on a cloudy , not very windy day, and even on those days we need to make a heap to be stored to get through a windless night.
That means on Sunny , Windy days we need to have an absolute glut of the stuff.
- Mar 16, 2002
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I’ve said in the future USAGE will be free… provided you dont exceed peak demand during peak demand periods… ie … you will pay for a peak demand plans. , like NBN spreads with unlimited data.
PiCkLeJuiCe
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The UK landmass is too small to rely on renewables. The whole of the UK can be cloudy or have little wind simultaneously meaning gas backup is always going to be needed.
If you get a still misty / foggy day, then you won't produce enough electricity to power the country, How embarrassing would it be for a 1st world country to run out of power.
- Mar 16, 2002
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Does water still run out of your tap when it’s not raining?
PiCkLeJuiCe
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Enough water is stored. Enough electricity isn't.
You know full well solar generation can drop to 10 - 15% of max production when it's foggy.
The benefit of Australia is that the land mass is big enough that if weather is cloudy in one state, it can be sunny in another. England is just over half the size of Victoria.
- Mar 16, 2002
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Battery storage has been around for about 5 minutes.., first large one was in SA.
Storage is the key.
That’s why you build excess solar and because it’s dirt cheap. I’m sure there are enough rooftops and space in the UK. I was able to put 5 times the amount I need on my roof.
Well the UK is extreme lucky because it’s got wind and is connected to Europe, that’s the great thing about being on a grid .. it’s sunny or windy somewhere.
and yes we are also lucky that we can basically build 300-400% more solar generation than we need… it’s like being able to make rain!!!
PiCkLeJuiCe
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I don't think you understand the sheer amount of batteries you'd need to provide 60% of a country's power for just 1 day.
The UK is shifting to renewables but as the chart below shows, they are increasingly reliant upon imports. It's hit 20% for the first time. So the UK's closure of its own power plants and shifting to renewables is seeing it more dependant on other countries for power
So if war ever breaks out, the UK will be rationing power.
- Nov 10, 2022
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Yeah, if there’s a major European war, it’s going to undo a lot of the environmental action efforts anyway
War is the last thing the environment needs
War is the last thing the environment needs
There was talk about them building a DC link to Morocco to address the issue.
Xlinks Morocco–UK Power Project - Wikipedia
Costed at 22 Billion Euro, they would hope to recoup that at times when there is simply not enough electricity available in the UK .
The French will be exporting their nuclear electricity for 70Eur/Mwh. The average wholesale price of Electricity in the UK is 45EU /Mwh. So the Solar cable will look to be somewhere in between when they have Solar and UK doesn't.
Australia goes up and down a lot but i think the current average is only $65/Mwh, so $39 Euro.
But Nut and his Viking buddy say its getting cheaper , so i'll look forward to that.
Maybe we should look at a cable across the bight, it could supply the eastern states with electricity during that critical dusk period.
( the sun-link looks like being an overhyped solar farm for Darwin ).
- Mar 16, 2002
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No I do… we will need about 50GWh by 2050.
We have over 3GWh now… and the plan is for 30GWh by 2030.
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You are forgetting 45GWH of wind
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Luckily the plan isn’t relying on 5GWh …
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On those 3-4 days of the year when the weather ain’t right.. turn the gas on.
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The Australian Energy Market Operator, in its Integrated System Plan, identifies the need for 15 GW of fast response gas capacity in the grid in its “step change” scenario, up from around 11 GW now. It makes clear that these generators will be used rarely, and overall gas generation will fall considerably, but will be essential to fill in gaps, particularly in periods of wind and solar droughts, called “Dunkelflaute” that often appear in late autumn or early winter.
AEMO recognises the important need for a system that can generate electricity on demand. However, who in their right mind is going to build and maintain gas plants if they are rarely used?
Imagine 3 to 4 days a year in Australia where we don't have sufficient power....especially in late Autumn and early winter.
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So the decision is to have 95% renewables… the cost of the gas compared to going 100% renewables is what needs to be worked out.
In order to cover that 5% we might need an extra 50% renewables.
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For perspective on how many GWh are required for energy storage, Germany needs two weeks of energy to make renewables reliable
2 weeks NOT 2 hours
We have some advantages over Germany but we will need a number of days (4 to 8 days)
Then consider our energy requirements will be higher in 2050 than as per today with a larger population PLUS add all the petrol and diesel used by our cars will be electric or hydrogen by then AND to think 50% of our diesel is consumed off grid 20MW or less which will make a lot of sense for batteries
That’s why 50GWh is way off based on energy storage rather than grid management and bespoke arbitrage
2 weeks NOT 2 hours
We have some advantages over Germany but we will need a number of days (4 to 8 days)
Then consider our energy requirements will be higher in 2050 than as per today with a larger population PLUS add all the petrol and diesel used by our cars will be electric or hydrogen by then AND to think 50% of our diesel is consumed off grid 20MW or less which will make a lot of sense for batteries
That’s why 50GWh is way off based on energy storage rather than grid management and bespoke arbitrage
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