There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawthorn

[Hodgepodge]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Meh...the fact that people have been waiting for Rioli to improve for 2 years just proves my point.

He was a better player in 2009 than in 2008. Particularly before his hamstring injury where he was averageing 17 disposals and 1.5 goals. To put into perspective those were better stats than Chris Judd in his second year.

He is no further advanced than he was in 2008.

Hasn't done any training for a month after serious groin concerns. That would have a lot to do with his performance in Rd 2.

Still ran round Enright like he was a witches hat.

We don't accept mediocrity, no matter how exciting you "might" be.

Sure you do. That would be why Hawkins made your forward line ahead of Lonergan. Lonergan was producing more, but Hawkins had the 'potential'. Hence you persist with Hawkins.

Plus I don't use diversions. I don't need to.
I simply put my case. You fall over yourself misunderstanding it, then I have to explain it to you like to a 7 yo.

Nah you just spit teamspeak in order to avoid making an honest assessment of your players. Your rather open guesstimate of 35-50 goals just highlights your reticence towards rating Tom Hawkins.

Seriously, what are you expecting of him this year? Are you one of those who said he'd kick 60 in 2010?

Discuss.

 

[witsend]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Yeah, great team, ordinary forward line

If you had a decent forward line, you would be close to unbeatable.
Instead you have to rely on lairy types like Steve Johnson who kick a genius goal, then spray their next five kicks. What a champion!!

Imagine if Stevie J played for Richmond. He'd be a laughing stock. He'd be no better than Mitch Morton!

Funny how Buddy Franklin did exactly that in the 2008 Grand Final and was considered to have played badly, supposedly beaten by Matty Scarlett. Buddy played on the All Australian full back, got 12 possessions to Scarlett's 11, kicked two goals, set up three more, took Scarlett out of the play, preventing him from providing any rebound, creating space for teammates like Dew and Williams to kick the match-winning goals, all while carrying thumb and shoulder injuries... And people said he was beaten on the day. Go figure!

But you reckon Tom Hawkins played well in the 2009 GF when he took just two marks and got just eight possessions (half as many as his opponent)

It just goes to show, you can look at a game of football from all kinds of perspectives...

Buddy did what his coach asked him to do very well. Well played. You'll get no argument from there. How is that relevant to this discussion?
Likewise,Hawkins did his job in the GF on a day where few tall forwards found space or time, yet when he did, under pressure, he performed. No-one's putting up for NS. He simply did his role well. Yet it was an important step for a 21yo KPP.
Nothing wrong with our forward line now. Definitely our Achilles Heel in 2008, which Clarkson exploited to perfection. That's why you were the 2008 Premiers.
SJ is an AA gun who was NS in 2007. His credentials are not in question. When fit he would be along with Chapman the first worry for opposition coaches.
Also because of the salary cap and draft, no team can have a "complete" team, although Geelong is close to it atm.
You guys drafted Tall forwards and built a team around them.
WE had greta key defenders and MFs and built around them. Oor Forwrad line has been a work in progress for a long time. Only now is it starting to peak and find it's correct structure. Mooney only became a permanent CHF in 2007. You saw first hand on unday how good he is. Hawkins was/is a boy and is coming into his own as we speak. SJ was a ******** until 2007 (some say he still is) but he is an elite player. Chapman is just an out and out champion. We also rely heavily on goal kicking mids.
Again, how is any of that relevant to this discussion?
Oh I get it...whenever you're losing an argument it's "We won the GF in 2008".
Congratulations...again....

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

You're kidding yourself if you think Varcoe is better than Rioli. It's not that you're overrating Varcoe. It's just a typical Rioli undersell that he's just your average forward pocket.

Rioli is not quite up to your average forward pocket yet. The kid can tackle, but his kicks are either helicopter punts to space, or dribbles along the ground. 10 touches and no goals is below average for a forward pocket.

 

[witsend]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

He was a better player in 2009 than in 2008. Particularly before his hamstring injury where he was averageing 17 disposals and 1.5 goals. To put into perspective those were better stats than Chris Judd in his second year.



Hasn't done any training for a month after serious groin concerns. That would have a lot to do with his performance in Rd 2.

Still ran round Enright like he was a witches hat.



Sure you do. That would be why Hawkins made your forward line ahead of Lonergan. Lonergan was producing more, but Hawkins had the 'potential'. Hence you persist with Hawkins.



Nah you just spit teamspeak in order to avoid making an honest assessment of your players. Your rather open guesstimate of 35-50 goals just highlights your reticence towards rating Tom Hawkins.

Seriously, what are you expecting of him this year? Are you one of those who said he'd kick 60 in 2010?

Discuss.

Nope. I think thats unrealistic. I expect 2 per game with the odd break out of 4-5. He hasn't developed the "arrogance" required yet to dominate a la Franklin. (That's a compliment btw, not a criticism)
But I don't think Hawkins kicking 60 goals is a requirement.
You will likely see a lot of Cats kicking 40 odd goals+ this year.
SJ, Chapman, Mooney, Hawkins, Byrnes. Along with a combo of Varcoe/Duncan/Stokes and add our MFs in the 20s-30s and we'll be fine.
Thanks for your concern.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Rioli is not quite up to your average forward pocket yet. The kid can tackle, but his kicks are either helicopter punts to space, or dribbles along the ground. 10 touches and no goals is below average for a forward pocket.

Rioli kicked a goal.

I didn't expect much from him on the weekend. Really hasn't trained much at all in the past month after experiencing groin soreness.

Just glad he still has his pace after seeing how groin injuries affected Ball and Judd.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Nope. I think thats unrealistic. I expect 2 per game with the odd break out of 4-5. He hasn't developed the "arrogance" required yet to dominate a la Franklin. (That's a compliment btw, not a criticism)
But I don't think Hawkins kicking 60 goals is a requirement.
You will likely see a lot of Cats kicking 40 odd goals+ this year.
SJ, Chapman, Mooney, Hawkins, Byrnes. Along with a combo of Varcoe/Duncan/Stokes and add our MFs in the 20s-30s and we'll be fine.
Thanks for your concern.

Good to finally get an honest assessment. Wasn't that hard, surely.

So far Hawkins is below your expectations with 1 goal a game.

Needs 4 against Fremantle to par.

 

[Chewy]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Look, I understand what you're saying, Witsend. I just think it's wishful thinking on your part. If Geelong had a decent forward line, they would regularly kick more than 20 goals. But they don't.

Johnson is not an elite player. Ablett is an elite player. Stevie J is fun to watch, he has a few tricks, he is capable of miraculous play (such his one-handed mark against Hawthorn) and he can snap a goal from boundary line, but at the end of the day, he is vastly overrated. He benefits from playing with a midfield that gives him ample supply, same as all the other duds in Geelong's forward line.

Don't give me that crock of shit about his "credentials". So he won a Norm Smith Medal for kicking 4 goals on a team that won by 20 goals! Woo HOO!!

Seriously. If Steve Johnson played for Richmond, he would be rated as highly as Mitch Morton. He is a lair who mostly stuffs things up. People don't notice because the Cats usually win. But believe me: if he played for shit side, received half as many opportunities in a game and stuffed things up like he does, he would be ridiculed.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Stevie J is fun to watch, he has a few tricks, he is capable of miraculous play (such his one-handed mark against Hawthorn)

Which replays show was dropped.

 

[theCATSfromHELL]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Look, I understandwhat you're saying, Witsend. I just think it's wishful thinking on your part. If Geelong had a decent forward line, they would regularly kick more than 20 goals. But they don't.

Johnson is not an elite player. Ablett is an elite player. Stevie J is fun to watch, he has a few tricks, he is capable of miraculous play (such his one-handed mark against Hawthorn) and he can snap a goal from boundary line, but at the end of the day, he is vastly overrated. He benefits from playing with a midfield that gives him ample supply, same as all the other duds in Geelong's forward line.

Don't give me that crock of shit about his "credentials". So he won a Norm Smith Medal for kicking 4 goals on a team that won by 20 goals! Woo HOO!!

Seriously. If Steve Johnson played for Richmond, he would be rated as highly as Mitch Morton. He is a lair who mostly stuffs things up. People don't notice because the Cats usually win. But believe me: if he played for shit side, received half as many opportunities in a game and stuffed things up like he does, he would be ridiculed.

I suggest you watch the first half of his season from last year before his hip injury. He was close to being brownlow favourite, and for good reason.

Would have been an automatic AA selection had he not missed so many games.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

I suggest you watch the first half of his season from last year before his hip injury. He was close to being brownlow favourite, and for good reason.

Would have been an automatic AA selection had he not missed so many games.

I actually agree with this. He was arguably the best player in the comp for the first 11 rounds.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

I believe this dump that you talk of HP is actually the Hawthorn Football Club

 

[Hodgepodge]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

I believe this dump that you talk of HP is actually the Hawthorn Football Club

I didn't start the thread, genius.

 

[theCATSfromHELL]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

I didn't start the thread, genius.

Haha that actually made me laugh.

Silly Carlton supporters.

 

[witsend]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Look, I understand what you're saying, Witsend. I just think it's wishful thinking on your part. If Geelong had a decent forward line, they would regularly kick more than 20 goals. But they don't.

Johnson is not an elite player. Ablett is an elite player. Stevie J is fun to watch, he has a few tricks, he is capable of miraculous play (such his one-handed mark against Hawthorn) and he can snap a goal from boundary line, but at the end of the day, he is vastly overrated. He benefits from playing with a midfield that gives him ample supply, same as all the other duds in Geelong's forward line.

Don't give me that crock of shit about his "credentials". So he won a Norm Smith Medal for kicking 4 goals on a team that won by 20 goals! Woo HOO!!

Seriously. If Steve Johnson played for Richmond, he would be rated as highly as Mitch Morton. He is a lair who mostly stuffs things up. People don't notice because the Cats usually win. But believe me: if he played for shit side, received half as many opportunities in a game and stuffed things up like he does, he would be ridiculed.

He's a polarising player.
We rate him highly. Also prior to his hip injury in 2009 he was close to leading our B & F. He gets a LOT of possessions for his role. He can certainly frustrate with his errors. They are usually a result of trying to do the "lair" thing. But that's what he's paid to do.
Chapman provides grunt, SJ provides the unexpected.We'll keep him thanks!

Mooney is an 8-10 mark a week lead up forward, Hawkins is a tall marking target who is getting his 2nd efforts and tackling up to AFL standard.
SJ and Chapman would walk into any side in the AFL.
Byrnes has turned himself into a very valuable player and is putting pressure on the other small forwards to perform, which is great.
Rooke is our F50 enforcer who also kicks goals. Varcoe is our run down tackle specialist. Pretty balanced.
Also bear in mind that pretty much all teams playing us put significant numbers behind the ball, so our KP players rarely have space to work in.
Not complaining...just saying. Our guys are rarely one out.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Look, I understand what you're saying, Witsend. I just think it's wishful thinking on your part. If Geelong had a decent forward line, they would regularly kick more than 20 goals. But they don't.

I guess Hawthorn don't have a decent forwardline either? Both clubs kicked 20 goals once last year.

Geelong kicked 95 more goals though.

Johnson is not an elite player. Ablett is an elite player. Stevie J is fun to watch, he has a few tricks, he is capable of miraculous play (such his one-handed mark against Hawthorn) and he can snap a goal from boundary line, but at the end of the day, he is vastly overrated. He benefits from playing with a midfield that gives him ample supply, same as all the other duds in Geelong's forward line.

Don't give me that crock of shit about his "credentials". So he won a Norm Smith Medal for kicking 4 goals on a team that won by 20 goals! Woo HOO!!

Seriously. If Steve Johnson played for Richmond, he would be rated as highly as Mitch Morton. He is a lair who mostly stuffs things up. People don't notice because the Cats usually win. But believe me: if he played for shit side, received half as many opportunities in a game and stuffed things up like he does, he would be ridiculed.

Pretty easy to fall into the trap of rating players on their last match. Not very accurate though.

 

[witsend]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Look, I understand what you're saying, Witsend. I just think it's wishful thinking on your part. If Geelong had a decent forward line, they would regularly kick more than 20 goals. But they don't.

Johnson is not an elite player. Ablett is an elite player. Stevie J is fun to watch, he has a few tricks, he is capable of miraculous play (such his one-handed mark against Hawthorn) and he can snap a goal from boundary line, but at the end of the day, he is vastly overrated. He benefits from playing with a midfield that gives him ample supply, same as all the other duds in Geelong's forward line.

Don't give me that crock of shit about his "credentials". So he won a Norm Smith Medal for kicking 4 goals on a team that won by 20 goals! Woo HOO!!

Seriously. If Steve Johnson played for Richmond, he would be rated as highly as Mitch Morton. He is a lair who mostly stuffs things up. People don't notice because the Cats usually win. But believe me: if he played for shit side, received half as many opportunities in a game and stuffed things up like he does, he would be ridiculed.

You're wrong there, mate. SJ finds his own footy. He's not generally our lead up target at all.
Also everyone rabbits on about our MF spoon feeding our Forwards, but they are usually kicking to a forward line flooded by opposition defenders, giving them little or no space, so it evens out for mine.

 

[shotta]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Handbaggers will always win the games that DONT matter.

Thats why Hawthorn is the superior club, they bring home the bacon!

Geez this 2008 GF dvd is worn and torn in need of replacing, 2010 will do the trick, 2 out of three just like the handbaggers with half the hype.

Cant imagine the rubbish being spruked if the cream puffs had an era like Hawthorn, at present though they are 5 glorious years away.

 

[theCATSfromHELL]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Handbaggers will always win the games that DONT matter.

Thats why Hawthorn is the superior club, they bring home the bacon!

Geez this 2008 GF dvd is worn and torn in need of replacing, 2010 will do the trick, 2 out of three just like the handbaggers with half the hype.

Cant imagine the rubbish being spruked if the cream puffs had an era like Hawthorn, at present though they are 5 glorious years away.

Probably because they don't make DVDs for teams that finish ninth.

 

[witsend]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

What's that stench in the room?

 

[Greg Brady]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

What went wrong with your preseason?...how come you're so underdone?

Played late due to being in a GF, and sustained injuries to Taylor and Chapman in it.
Senior players told to take extra weeks off because of playing in three consecutive GFs.
Ottens injures hand a few weeks before practice matches; considering he has missed approx. 40 games in the last 3 seasons, a solid preseason would have been really handy for him.
Corey injures knee in NAB Cup rd 1, and just makes it back in time for rd 1 of ther H&A.
Injuries to youngsters such as Hogan and Gillies means that any injuries to our 1st 22 (see: Milburn, Rooke, Varcoe) will have to be covered by the likes of Duncan (1st year player), and Lonergan (had written him off until he tore Buddy a new arseh*le (see below))

And as I'm sure you're not intelligent enough to realise, when I said we had a poor preseason, I meant form wise. Losses to Kangas and Richmond were not inspiring results, yet somehow we come out and beat "Premisership contenders" Hawthorn.

And you clearly missed Chapman's comments in the HS about the team always being primed for the Hawks - mentioned something about taking something from them once

Typical cliche response just to give the media something to write up, what do you expect him to say: "We don't care whether we win or lose"?

Yes you took our '08 flag, but no amount of H&A wins will do anything about that, so the weekend's match was irrelevant in that respect

And tell me - wHich players are going to be omitted for Milburn, Varcoe, Rooke and Stokes?

Duncan (as impressive as he looked for a 2nd gamer, I know!).
Motlop (was a depressing state of affairs that we were in such a bad way with injuries that we had to select him in the first place).
I would have said Lonergan, as Gillies has a lot more promising future than him, but I dunno, after comprehensively smashing Buddy I'd say he deserves a few more weeks. You could easily argue Wojo will make way for one of the returns, but personally I like him in the side.

Anything else?

 

[dymmot]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Hey guys, there's no point blowing your wads. September is still five months away. Neither side was close to playing at full strength last Monday. Franklin and Ablett were out of form. Players were lacking match fitness. The only thing to come out of that game is that there is still nothing between Geelong and Hawthorn when they meet each other.

2010 Geelong by 9 points
2009 Geelong by 1 point
2009 Geelong by 8 points
2008 Hawthorn by 26 points
2008 Geelong by 11 points
2007 Hawthorn by 4 points

Hey talking about us blowing our wads early is a bit rich, I mean look at 2009 for an example of that. Hawthorn were up by 5 goals early in the final after even kicking the first. Thought thwey won and made September and instead choked and lost the supposedly unloseable game. Not to mention the opposition hasd 1 man on the bench.

Then there was the final round repeat.

I believe this dump that you talk of HP is actually the Hawthorn Football Club

LOL

Haha that actually made me laugh.

Silly Carlton supporters.

Same

What's that stench in the room?

Probably someone left the toilet Hawthorn coloured.

 

[TAITA]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

What's that stench in the room?

Refer to Op and thread title.

 

[Chewy]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

I guess Hawthorn don't have a decent forwardline either? Both clubs kicked 20 goals once last year.

Geelong kicked 95 more goals though.

For the past few years, Geelong have had the best midfield in the comp and the best attacking backline in the comp. Easy. If the Cats had a decent forward line, they would've kicked cricket scores, even allowing for today's flooded defenses and zones (which all 16 teams must face, Witsend)

Last season, Hawthorn fell apart with injuries. We had NO run through the midfield. Zilch. Our backline was also undermanned and badly exposed in many games. Our forward line was the only reason we won any games at all (nine) and got close in several others. This despite Franklin's poor form after a limited pre-season and injuries to Roughead, Rioli, Osborne, Dew and Williams.


Here's my simplistic take on things:

Hawthorn: they can be attacking, but their gameplan emphasises defense
Average backline, very good midfield and great forwards

Geelong: they can be defensive, but their gameplan emphasises attack
Very good backline, great midfield, average forward line

Sometimes, Hawthorn's midfield can be bad, but generally, it is very good.

Good teams can kick goals against the Cat defense, but for the most part, they have a very good backline. Sometimes their forward line will play okay, but for the most part, they are fairly mediocre. If you had Collingwood's smalls or Hawthorn's talls, you would blow sides away by even bigger margins.

I agree with Witsend that the Geelong forward line has improved slightly, especially if Ottens takes marks at full forward. But this is counter-balanced by their backline which has probably declined slightly, with Scarlett and Milburn getting on in years and Tom Harley no longer around.

Pretty easy to fall into the trap of rating players on their last match. Not very accurate though.

I've always thought that about Steve Johnson. I'm not basing my opinion on one match. Don't get me wrong, he can be good to watch (when he's not staging or ducking his dead into tackles) but his good play is evened out by his bad play. Just my opinion. Gerard Healy and Robert Walls have a different opinion to me.

 

[dymmot]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

I've always thought that about Steve Johnson. I'm not basing my opinion on one match. Don't get me wrong, he can be good to watch (when he's not staging or ducking his dead into tackles) but his good play is evened out by his bad play. Just my opinion. Gerard Healy and Robert Walls have a different opinion to me.

I thought this was a fairly balanced post until I read this bit you sniping flog. Go have a cry sooky la la session on the team board.

 

[Lurkalot]

Re: There is a DUMP the size of a small car in the pants of all Cats supporters thinking about Hawth

Played late due to being in a GF, and sustained injuries to Taylor and Chapman in it.
Senior players told to take extra weeks off because of playing in three consecutive GFs.

That's what's known as individual player management. Some would have an intense preseason programm to work on their fitness base while others (eg 30+'s) would have an extended break to rest their bodies. It's a science & it's all about having them ready to go for H&A. As witsend said fitness concerns are not an issue. I'd imagine Thompson would look at replicating last year - Wrap up a top 4 position asap and where needed "rest" players coming into the finals. A winning start (like '08 & '09) would be part of the boring one's plan

Ottens injures hand a few weeks before practice matches; considering he has missed approx. 40 games in the last 3 seasons, a solid preseason would have been really handy for him.
Corey injures knee in NAB Cup rd 1, and just makes it back in time for rd 1 of ther H&A.
Injuries to youngsters such as Hogan and Gillies means that any injuries to our 1st 22 (see: Milburn, Rooke, Varcoe) will have to be covered by the likes of Duncan (1st year player), and Lonergan (had written him off until he tore Buddy a new arseh*le (see below))

A standard preseason really...a few injuries here and there. Majority of clubs were in the same boat or worse. Crucial players - a hand injury to Ottens wouldn't hinder his fitness levels & Corey had a preseason behind him b4 a minor knee complaint.

LOL at "depressing state of affairs that we were in such a bad way with injuries that we had to select (Motlop) in the first place" (see below)

And as I'm sure you're not intelligent enough to realise, when I said we had a poor preseason, I meant form wise. Losses to Kangas and Richmond were not inspiring results, yet somehow we come out and beat "Premisership contenders" Hawthorn.

I wouldn't be having a crack at my intelligence if you're of the belief that results of NAB Cup & Challenge games translate to Premiership season form.

Typical cliche response just to give the media something to write up, what do you expect him to say: "We don't care whether we win or lose"?

Yes you took our '08 flag, but no amount of H&A wins will do anything about that, so the weekend's match was irrelevant in that respect.

BS - Marked lift in intensity from round 1, 4 players cited, Mooneys over the top antics after each goal, your celebrations after the H&A win.

You've got your head up your arse if you think the Cats don't lift when they play Hawthorn (& vice versa).

Duncan (as impressive as he looked for a 2nd gamer, I know!).
Motlop (was a depressing state of affairs that we were in such a bad way with injuries that we had to select him in the first place).
I would have said Lonergan, as Gillies has a lot more promising future than him, but I dunno, after comprehensively smashing Buddy I'd say he deserves a few more weeks. You could easily argue Wojo will make way for one of the returns, but personally I like him in the side.

You originally stated four players were missing from your best 22 - Milburn, Varcoe, Rooke and Stokes. Yet you can only find two omissions for them

Anything else?

Next time sign off your post with "Refer all questions to witsend".