Secondary Thinking about becoming a teacher

[raskolnikov]

ask someone who has done both...

I've done both. I would say primary requires more work outside the class. Secondary can be more stressful behaviour-management wise.

I've been teaching Special Ed the last 7 years and love it. I wouldn't want to teach at a special school for students with extreme disabilities. But teaching in a Special Ed block within a mainstream setting is great.

 

[raskolnikov]

Mortgages bro

Plus no pay for holidays and limited work at the start and end of the year.

 

[Tassieboy]

Plus no pay for holidays and limited work at the start and end of the year.

My wife and I are both thinking about doing our masters to become Primary teachers. We get a wide range of reactions, especially me being male. We are only 23 and our first child is due in May so we are debating when will be the ideal time etc.

From what I can gather, the biggest impediment for graduates is getting full-time work. We have almost paid off our mortgage, so we are really only looking work on average 2-3 days a week (80-120 days a year). Subsequently, I feel relief teaching would fit quite well. Obviously, work will be a little bit random and be more frequent during winter, but according to those in the industry in Launceston there's enough work around so long as you're half competent.

Is going down the relief teaching route in this circumstance foolish?

 

[Jack Richards]

What about relief teaching...

no meetings
no planning
no preparation
hardly any marking if any
no parents
no bullshit to deal with

350/400 a day

No pay over school holidays.

 

[Breustiful]

Is going down the relief teaching route in this circumstance foolish?

In terms of getting work, I really don't think so for primary school teachers. You're wanted all year round - Year 5s and 6s don't have exams like 11s and 12s!

In terms of getting paid during the holidays is a concern, some CRTs just say they are extremely tight with their savings.

 

[Jack Richards]

My wife and I are both thinking about doing our masters to become Primary teachers. We get a wide range of reactions, especially me being male. We are only 23 and our first child is due in May so we are debating when will be the ideal time etc.

From what I can gather, the biggest impediment for graduates is getting full-time work. We have almost paid off our mortgage, so we are really only looking work on average 2-3 days a week (80-120 days a year). Subsequently, I feel relief teaching would fit quite well. Obviously, work will be a little bit random and be more frequent during winter, but according to those in the industry in Launceston there's enough work around so long as you're half competent.

Is going down the relief teaching route in this circumstance foolish?

I enjoyed it as I lived at home in my first year but had to budget like no tomorrow and even then I just scraped by. The pros of not taking work home was fantastic, but the waiting for a call up between 6:30-8:30 was a PITA especially if you dont end up getting a call.

As a CRT you also have to make sure you dont leave a bad taste in the schools mouth or the fellow teachers. At mine, we are asked to give feedback so they can ensure they request NOT to have some back.

I only did that once because she was yelling at the Students, spelling words wrong and then didnt help mark work for the 3 days she was in the room).

 

[Jack Richards]

Im home and taking the dog for a walk and the local primary school staff carpark is still full. Im sure its a 75/25 lesson prep and gossip split but staying back 1 to 2 hours most days, **** that. Guess thats the trade off as they dont get told to get ****** as much as high school teachers!

The amount of planning and preparing for the week is nuts. My average day/week at the moment

8:00am arrive, have Breakfast, gather resources
8:30am meeting Mon, Wed, Thurs
8:50 kids enter
900am-3:15 work recess/lunch

3:30pm mark books, plan, photocopy and collect resources.
4:30pm say 'F*ck this' and head home

Our APT is now 2hrs as they took 1hour to look at year level data only. No planning allowed in this hour.

Each planner has to be at least 8-10pages and identify Curriculum statements covered, student differentiation at each progression point, learning intentions and be detailed enough that a CRT or Prin can come in and take the lesson. These need to be uploaded onto the school server by Friday afternoon (leadership do check as I have been caught out).

Thats just if you dont have a student on the PSD program. You have to make a whole new planner for them and have weekly minuted meetings with the Aide in a time negotiated with them.

 

[footy75]

pretty opened ended question but

how easy is it to get a teaching job in Melbourne grades primary/middle primary

with lots of experience

 

[Jack Richards]

pretty opened ended question but

how easy is it to get a teaching job in Melbourne grades primary/middle primary

with lots of experience

Depends on where you are looking and how far out of the city you are prepared to travel. East Melbourne (Boronia, Ringwood, Ferntree Gully area) forget it. One school in Boronia I applied for had 1 position up and over 100 applicants.

Even the growth corridors (Cranbourne, Pakenham) are getting competitive. I've been teaching for 8 years now and can't get an interview at new schools that have been built. When asking for feedback they just say it's not my resume, there was just that many applicants.

West Melb (Broadmeadows) you have a better chance.

I have seen many jobs come up around the remote areas that are about 2hrs+ out of melb.

I'm limited to distance with our home and kids going to the school around the corner. But yea other teachers get the same idea and Uni's pumping Grads out like no tomorrow make it harder to get a job and transfer schools.

Why pay a range 2 teacher $X over a range 1 who can do the same role but cheaper? Or pay a grad even less and train them to utilise the same programs as the range 1 or 2 teacher.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

The amount of planning and preparing for the week is nuts. My average day/week at the moment

8:00am arrive, have Breakfast, gather resources
8:30am meeting Mon, Wed, Thurs
8:50 kids enter
900am-3:15 work recess/lunch

3:30pm mark books, plan, photocopy and collect resources.
4:30pm say 'F*ck this' and head home

Our APT is now 2hrs as they took 1hour to look at year level data only. No planning allowed in this hour.

Each planner has to be at least 8-10pages and identify Curriculum statements covered, student differentiation at each progression point, learning intentions and be detailed enough that a CRT or Prin can come in and take the lesson. These need to be uploaded onto the school server by Friday afternoon (leadership do check as I have been caught out).

Thats just if you dont have a student on the PSD program. You have to make a whole new planner for them and have weekly minuted meetings with the Aide in a time negotiated with them.

I'm...
Arrive 7.30 organise the day, emails and odd jobs.
8.50 kids arrive
Work through lunch and recess while eating unless I had yard duty. Then I do that and then eat.
3.30 kids leave.
Have meetings on Tuesday and Wednesday on the other days do all the work for the follow week or jobs for my other roles.
5.15-5.30 go home to the wife and kids

Usually do an hour or so some weekends too.

 

[raskolnikov]

My wife and I are both thinking about doing our masters to become Primary teachers. We get a wide range of reactions, especially me being male. We are only 23 and our first child is due in May so we are debating when will be the ideal time etc.

From what I can gather, the biggest impediment for graduates is getting full-time work. We have almost paid off our mortgage, so we are really only looking work on average 2-3 days a week (80-120 days a year). Subsequently, I feel relief teaching would fit quite well. Obviously, work will be a little bit random and be more frequent during winter, but according to those in the industry in Launceston there's enough work around so long as you're half competent.

Is going down the relief teaching route in this circumstance foolish?

Sorry. I didn't get past "23 and almost paid off our mortgage". Lucky bastard.

Seriously though. It sounds like money isn't a huge concern so go for it.

And people with that attitude towards male teachers piss me off. Education needs good male teachers.

 

[footy75]

Depends on where you are looking and how far out of the city you are prepared to travel. East Melbourne (Boronia, Ringwood, Ferntree Gully area) forget it. One school in Boronia I applied for had 1 position up and over 100 applicants.

Even the growth corridors (Cranbourne, Pakenham) are getting competitive. I've been teaching for 8 years now and can't get an interview at new schools that have been built. When asking for feedback they just say it's not my resume, there was just that many applicants.

West Melb (Broadmeadows) you have a better chance.

I have seen many jobs come up around the remote areas that are about 2hrs+ out of melb.

I'm limited to distance with our home and kids going to the school around the corner. But yea other teachers get the same idea and Uni's pumping Grads out like no tomorrow make it harder to get a job and transfer schools.

Why pay a range 2 teacher $X over a range 1 who can do the same role but cheaper? Or pay a grad even less and train them to utilise the same programs as the range 1 or 2 teacher.

Doesn't sound that easy Jack.

i have been teaching in international schools IB.

thinking about heading home one of these days... but the thought of moving back to Deadlaide after living in amazing cities frightens me.

 

[superfraser]

Doesn't sound that easy Jack.

i have been teaching in international schools IB.

thinking about heading home one of these days... but the thought of moving back to Deadlaide after living in amazing cities frightens me.

You'll get a job, but you'll need to be good.

If teachers are unable to clearly illustrate that their performance is better than average, they won't get hired over graduates who are significantly cheaper.

The AEU has put schools in a difficult position because under performing 'expert teachers' are filling so many roles in schools that schools have their hands tied.

If you are a better than average teacher, you'll probably have more luck if you're applying for leadership positions as these tend to have a very small number of applicants, and often have no one suitable apply.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

You'll get a job, but you'll need to be good.

If teachers are unable to clearly illustrate that their performance is better than average, they won't get hired over graduates who are significantly cheaper.

The AEU has put schools in a difficult position because under performing 'expert teachers' are filling so many roles in schools that schools have their hands tied.

If you are a better than average teacher, you'll probably have more luck if you're applying for leadership positions as these tend to have a very small number of applicants, and often have no one suitable apply.

The unfortunate way the system is, many good teachers miss out because positions are occupied by average teachers, and the schools can't get rid of them.

 

[superfraser]

The unfortunate way the system is, many good teachers miss out because positions are occupied by average teachers, and the schools can't get rid of them.

Yep, but get in front of a room of 100 teachers, and ask them to raise their hand if they're better than average and you'll see 95 hands go up.

Teachers don't allow for accountability measures to take place, and for anything that resembles accountability (e.g. NAPLAN), they talk it down to nothing.

You only need to read through this thread to see the problem.

Consensus view is; leadership is rubbish, rubbish teachers clog up positions, promotions are not giving to those most deserving, testing is flawed, the workload is extreme, we (the teachers of Bigfooty) are among the best but are unable to get jobs or promotions.

Ask a teacher how you could measure their success and most would request that you ask them personally how well they're doing, without looking into their classroom, their data or talking to their peers or students.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Yep, but get in front of a room of 100 teachers, and ask them to raise their hand if they're better than average and you'll see 95 hands go up.

Teachers don't allow for accountability measures to take place, and for anything that resembles accountability (e.g. NAPLAN), they talk it down to nothing.

You only need to read through this thread to see the problem.

Consensus view is; leadership is rubbish, rubbish teachers clog up positions, promotions are not giving to those most deserving, testing is flawed, the workload is extreme, we (the teachers of Bigfooty) are among the best but are unable to get jobs or promotions.

Ask a teacher how you could measure their success and most would request that you ask them personally how well they're doing, without looking into their classroom, their data or talking to their peers or students.

Fair generalisation there. Things like classroom observations and data analysis would be indicators. NAPLAN is not a good indicator though, that's a fact.

 

[superfraser]

Fair generalisation there. Things like classroom observations and data analysis would be indicators. NAPLAN is not a good indicator though, that's a fact.

NAPLAN definitely isn't the ideal tool to assess an individual teacher, but they're a good tool to determine the strength of a school, which includes a range of factors; teachers, leadership, curriculum, structures and organisation, etc.

Using data generated by internal assessments to assess teacher quality enables and encourages teachers to fudge data. Classroom observations are not practical, as they're time consuming and would need to be carried our frequently to get any real insight.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

NAPLAN definitely isn't the ideal tool to assess an individual teacher, but they're a good tool to determine the strength of a school, which includes a range of factors; teachers, leadership, curriculum, structures and organisation, etc.

Using data generated by internal assessments to assess teacher quality enables and encourages teachers to fudge data. Classroom observations are not practical, as they're time consuming and would need to be carried our frequently to get any real insight.

Classroom obs are common place and of they're not at a particular school, they should be.

NAPLAN data is fudged even more so.
Schools teach to the test - which is just plain atrocious teaching and parents of low students are asked to opt out of testing.

 

[Jack Richards]

Yep, but get in front of a room of 100 teachers, and ask them to raise their hand if they're better than average and you'll see 95 hands go up.

Teachers don't allow for accountability measures to take place, and for anything that resembles accountability (e.g. NAPLAN), they talk it down to nothing.

Bullocks. Not all students make 12 months growth in 12 months of schooling and not all students learn at the same speed. What about saying kinders fail because kids are entering Prep/Foundation without the skills or knowledge needed more than ever before in the South East? I taught Prep for 3 years and was shocked the gap widened year to year.

What about the parents who dont read to their children at night 'because it's the schools job' or fail to attend any parent teacher interview but happy to lay blame on the teacher? Last year out of a class of 25 students I had 11 attend parent teacher interviews both semesters.

What about the socio-economic factor? A school in Moe might not do as well as a school in Toorak.

I wouldn't base performance on NAPLAN which is one test done on one day. Especially when the country who designed it arent even using it anymore.

 

[Jack Richards]

Classroom obs are common place and of they're not at a particular school, they should be.

NAPLAN data is fudged even more so.
Schools teach to the test - which is just plain atrocious teaching and parents of low students are asked to opt out of testing.

Or discourage certain students to sit it altogether who will drop their scores.

 

[superfraser]

Classroom obs are common place and of they're not at a particular school, they should be.

NAPLAN data is fudged even more so.
Schools teach to the test - which is just plain atrocious teaching and parents of low students are asked to opt out of testing.

Classroom obs are moving away from being about assessing the teaching in the room, and towards collegiality and supportive. The teacher setting a goal to work on, and getting feedback on how to improve.

However, I agree, they are, and should be common place. What I was suggesting is that they're not actually common enough to be used as an accountability measure, nor are they practical to be used as an accountability measure as this would require more frequent observations, ie; twice weekly.

Jack Richards , How do you suggest measuring teacher performance? You're able to identify under performing teachers, how do you do it? And could you do it in such a way that those teachers could be identified more quickly and have the necessary supports given to them to bring up their performance?

With regards to your comparisons on Moe vs Toorak, sure, but NAPLAN use the Growth measure which compares students against similar students. Where 'similar' means a student with the same score from the test two years earlier.

I agree that the system isn't perfect. But I want to hear an alternative suggestion that is practical, rather than complaints against the current system.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Classroom obs are moving away from being about assessing the teaching in the room, and towards collegiality and supportive. The teacher setting a goal to work on, and getting feedback on how to improve.

However, I agree, they are, and should be common place. What I was suggesting is that they're not actually common enough to be used as an accountability measure, nor are they practical to be used as an accountability measure as this would require more frequent observations, ie; twice weekly.

Jack Richards , How do you suggest measuring teacher performance? You're able to identify under performing teachers, how do you do it? And could you do it in such a way that those teachers could be identified more quickly and have the necessary supports given to them to bring up their performance?

With regards to your comparisons on Moe vs Toorak, sure, but NAPLAN use the Growth measure which compares students against similar students. Where 'similar' means a student with the same score from

I agree that the system isn't perfect. But I want to hear an alternative suggestion that is practical, rather than complaints against the current system.

But it isn't a system for measuring individual teacher performance. If there was a test administered at the start if the year and then again at the end of he year, perhaps. I don't believe it's an effective measure of school performance, but concede it is a measure. It in no way measures an individuals perfrmance.

It's like saying a player had a good year because the club played well that year.

 

[superfraser]

But it isn't a system for measuring individual teacher performance. If there was a test administered at the start if the year and then again at the end of he year, perhaps. I don't believe it's an effective measure of school performance, but concede it is a measure. It in no way measures an individuals perfrmance.

It's like saying a player had a good year because the club played well that year.

Yep, that's fair. That's a sentiment I shared in my post numbered 818.

Although, I haven't suggested that NAPLAN be used for direct teacher accountability, but I'm comfortable with it being used for school accountability - despite being imperfect.

 

[Jack Richards]

Classroom obs are moving away from being about assessing the teaching in the room, and towards collegiality and supportive. The teacher setting a goal to work on, and getting feedback on how to improve.

However, I agree, they are, and should be common place. What I was suggesting is that they're not actually common enough to be used as an accountability measure, nor are they practical to be used as an accountability measure as this would require more frequent observations, ie; twice weekly.

Jack Richards , How do you suggest measuring teacher performance? You're able to identify under performing teachers, how do you do it? And could you do it in such a way that those teachers could be identified more quickly and have the necessary supports given to them to bring up their performance?

With regards to your comparisons on Moe vs Toorak, sure, but NAPLAN use the Growth measure which compares students against similar students. Where 'similar' means a student with the same score from the test two years earlier.

I agree that the system isn't perfect. But I want to hear an alternative suggestion that is practical, rather than complaints against the current system.

I don't think there is a one test approach that will work with many variables that will impact it.

Do you blame the teacher who had the students the year of the NAPLAN test or the years before?

One year 80% of my students were around the expected year. Our overall year data was great. The following year my kids data was not so great, but the year level itself going into that was not as flash. Do I get penalised?

What about catering for students coming and going year to year?

Our school looks at data which forms our P&D goals for that year. We only get one goal that is not set by the school.

 

[superfraser]

I don't think there is a one test approach that will work with many variables that will impact it.

Do you blame the teacher who had the students the year of the NAPLAN test or the years before?

One year 80% of my students were around the expected year. Our overall year data was great. The following year my kids data was not so great, but the year level itself going into that was not as flash. Do I get penalised?

What about catering for students coming and going year to year?

Our school looks at data which forms our P&D goals for that year. We only get one goal that is not set by the school.

You're Primary right? I actually think the Grade 3, and particularly the Grade 4 teacher are more responsible for the Grade 5 NAPLAN result than the Grade 5 teacher. This is due to those two teachers spending a larger amount of time with the students between the Grade 3 / Grade 5 tests than the Grade 5 teachers.

Again, my original statement is that NAPLAN is a great accountability tool (although, still imperfect) for assessing schools, leaders, curriculum and structures.

It's not a great too for the individual classroom teacher.

But that doesn't give us a solution to a good system for assessing teacher effectiveness. What system can be used?