Secondary Thinking about becoming a teacher

[The_Eagles]

Being smart doesn’t mean very good teacher
Ya gotta be a good actor and pretend to be mad
He dodged a bullet anyway unless he wants a bit more money for whatever reason

 

[Kram]

One of my best mates has his teaching degree, also has a Criminology degree, so obviously not a moron, the smartest bloke I know. Poor bloke applied for countless roles, had interviews, progressed to the next stage. Nothing. No job.


A girl I worked with at a pub couple of years ago, finished uni, got a temp job covering for maternity leave 6 months after she graduated. After the temp job finished, they offered her a full time job teaching grade 2.

Either she is ******* incredibly lucky or her gender played a part. I just felt so sorry for the guy, now he is driving forklifts at Harvey Norman on $24 an hour because he has simply given up.

Has he tried applying for positions away from the city?

 

[Jack Richards]

One of my best mates has his teaching degree, also has a Criminology degree, so obviously not a moron, the smartest bloke I know. Poor bloke applied for countless roles, had interviews, progressed to the next stage. Nothing. No job.

Teaching is hard to get into here in Victoria. Don't believe the hysteria of a teacher shortage.

If you live in the Eastern Suburbs of Victoria good luck getting a job. Unless your are prepared to move to regional and go fixed contract by fixed contract (year by year) then it's hard as regional schools would fluctuate in enrolments. I was told because I was in the eastern suburbs, it was luck that I got given interviews as you would have up to 60 applicants apply for 1 position.

I ended up travelling up to 40minutes for work before moving closer to where I was employed. Once I wanted to move schools it was difficult as I was so far up the pay scale, schools had to weigh up experience with cost (grad vs 8th year teacher).


With the Tutor Learning Initiative, CRTs (casuals) are becoming scarce, so that's one avenue, but then you will see an influx there once the government funding of it dries up and schools won't be able to fund their own full time.

 

[Jack Richards]

Either she is ******* incredibly lucky or her gender played a part. I just felt so sorry for the guy, now he is driving forklifts at Harvey Norman on $24 an hour because he has simply given up.

Gender plays no part in getting contracts. How far was he prepared to travel? Which suburbs he living and looking in? Has he looked at crt work?

 

[Kwality]

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Australia used to sit alongside Singapore in the top performing nations in education outcomes, but in the past 20 years Singapore has improved its standards while Australia has gone backwards.

Singapore recruits its teachers exclusively from the top 10 per cent of applicants and trains them at a single, highly regarded institution with a sole focus on making them ready to teach.

 

[Suspense]

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Australia used to sit alongside Singapore in the top performing nations in education outcomes, but in the past 20 years Singapore has improved its standards while Australia has gone backwards.

Singapore recruits its teachers exclusively from the top 10 per cent of applicants and trains them at a single, highly regarded institution with a sole focus on making them ready to teach.

"Accountability is election day"

 

[Kwality]

"Accountability is election day"

Npt sure that influences job decisions straight out of school though it should.

 

[Suspense]

The average ATAR of aspiring teachers has risen from 62.7 to 76.2 over the past three years, and the number of students applying for education courses has declined. The top 10% of students move into fields that have higher pay and higher status. If you limit teachers to top 10% of students, you won't have enough teachers.

Education, as a field, as a career path, and as a public and private good, is not as highly valued or respected in Australia as it in Singapore.

Npt sure that influences job decisions straight out of school though it should.

Education is a Government responsibility and accountability is election day.

If we are falling behind other countries because Govt and lobby groups prefer to engage in petty class warfare, rather than ensure all students (including low SES) get a quality education (as they do in Singapore), then that sounds like Govt mismanagement to me.

 

[Deliverance]

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Australia used to sit alongside Singapore in the top performing nations in education outcomes, but in the past 20 years Singapore has improved its standards while Australia has gone backwards.

Singapore recruits its teachers exclusively from the top 10 per cent of applicants and trains them at a single, highly regarded institution with a sole focus on making them ready to teach.

Schools also shove kids on to computers most of the day, where kids covertly play fortnite & peruse social media. As long as schools have "bring your own device" programs, massive distraction will occur and education standards will slip.

 

[Kwality]

The average ATAR of aspiring teachers has risen from 62.7 to 76.2 over the past three years, and the number of students applying for education courses has declined. The top 10% of students move into fields that have higher pay and higher status. If you limit teachers to top 10% of students, you won't have enough teachers.

Education, as a field, as a career path, and as a public and private good, is not as highly valued or respected in Australia as it in Singapore.


Education is a Government responsibility and accountability is election day.

If we are falling behind other countries because Govt and lobby groups prefer to engage in petty class warfare, rather than ensure all students (including low SES) get a quality education (as they do in Singapore), then that sounds like Govt mismanagement to me.

It has been a long time since education attracted the brightest minds, perhaps that is our problem in a nutshell. It has not happened overnight & those using education as a tool to push their own barrow, will never contribute to the solution.

Governments are indeed guilty of mismanagement & as usual, both sides of politics are to blame, furiously passing the parcel.

 

[wadistance]

If you’re a male, want to teach and have an European passport then Germany is the place for you. They’re literally advertising for teaching positions by encouraging males to apply first such is the shortage of male staff here.

My roller coaster ride has just gotten to the top - taught HSC in Australia, was a primary school subject teacher here last year for sport and English… as of august I’ll be a year 3 class teacher. What a ride.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jack Richards]

The average ATAR of aspiring teachers has risen from 62.7 to 76.2 over the past three years, and the number of students applying for education courses has declined. The top 10% of students move into fields that have higher pay and higher status. If you limit teachers to top 10% of students, you won't have enough teachers.

Education, as a field, as a career path, and as a public and private good, is not as highly valued or respected in Australia as it in Singapore.

It's too easy to bash teachers and overlook the biggest difference in the two countries: Culture and attitudes towards education.

In many asian countries education and teachers are held in such high regards. The pay as well is amazing.

I did my rounds in Box Hill which has a high multicultural status. The attitudes towards education was massive. More asian parents wanting extra work sent home compared to where I am currently teaching which is a low socio economic area where a lot of Caucasian families have been not wanting work being sent home and refuse to even do nightly reading let alone home work.

Less overcrowding of the curriculum and smaller class sizes would do wonders.

I know Hattie's study shows student feedback and explicit instruction are two of the biggest impacts in student growth, I just think if we had class sizes of no more than 18 it would help provide more time to give student feedback and if we had a less crowded curriculum it could focus on the essentials.

 

[Jack Richards]

Schools also shove kids on to computers most of the day, where kids covertly play fortnite & peruse social media. As long as schools have "bring your own device" programs, massive distraction will occur and education standards will slip.

No they dont unless they use their internet dongle as Edustar (dept internet) blocks all social media, Blogs and gaming sites (apart from Cool Maths).

 

[Jack Richards]

It has been a long time since education attracted the brightest minds, perhaps that is our problem in a nutshell. It has not happened overnight & those using education as a tool to push their own barrow, will never contribute to the solution.

Governments are indeed guilty of mismanagement & as usual, both sides of politics are to blame, furiously passing the parcel.

Honestly though if you had the choice of being a doctor, lawyer, scientist who can earn big $$$$ and have set days off

Or

Earn a maximum of $3400 a fortnight (or thereabouts) as a leading teacher (which could take years to get) and work 40+ hrs a week but only get paid for 38hrs to teach 25-30 students all day while also have the hat of doctor, councillor, behavioural manager.

You get holidays every 10 weeks but there is an expectation that you do work on some of those days and any planning you don't get done in your non-face to face teaching time (2.5hrs) needs to be done before or after school when you dont have meetings

There is a reason why it's still not an attractive profession

 

[Jack Richards]

My roller coaster ride has just gotten to the top - taught HSC in Australia, was a primary school subject teacher here last year for sport and English… as of august I’ll be a year 3 class teacher. What a ride.

I was in a mainstream school 2 years ago. Now in leadership at a special school. It is very rewarding working with students with additional needs. Highly recommend for anyone keen on focusing on life skills.

 

[Deliverance]

No they dont unless they use their internet dongle as Edustar (dept internet) blocks all social media, Blogs and gaming sites (apart from Cool Maths).

Lol, edustar. Kids have VPNs, dongles and hotspots. BYOD programs are a shambles. If you're a teacher and you're not constantly walking the room, your kids are off task on their tablets and laptops.

 

[Kwality]

Honestly though if you had the choice of being a doctor, lawyer, scientist who can earn big $$$$ and have set days off

Or

Earn a maximum of $3400 a fortnight (or thereabouts) as a leading teacher (which could take years to get) and work 40+ hrs a week but only get paid for 38hrs to teach 25-30 students all day while also have the hat of doctor, councillor, behavioural manager.

You get holidays every 10 weeks but there is an expectation that you do work on some of those days and any planning you don't get done in your non-face to face teaching time (2.5hrs) needs to be done before or after school when you dont have meetings

There is a reason why it's still not an attractive profession

A dud Doctor is harder to hide, as the saying goes, they bury their mistakes.

It is not rocket science that the best rise to the top in all fields. Take an AFL squad, the best get well remunerated, lots get drafted but dont make the grade. Is the teachers union part of the problem by representing the lowest common denominator.

Teaching should be a profession that involves constant renewal as is the law or accounting, basically 40 hrs/week 46 weeks a year, say 1800 + hours plus personal development.

There can be no doubt teachers are more involved in childrens life than they ever have been, & there is more on their plate than readin', writin' & 'rithmetic & sooner or later we need to get dinkum.

 

[Suspense]

Lol, edustar. Kids have VPNs, dongles and hotspots. BYOD programs are a shambles. If you're a teacher and you're not constantly walking the room, your kids are off task on their tablets and laptops.

VPNs are popular and I confiscated a Wi-Fi modem dongle just this week during an extra - student tried to tell me it was just a USB stick which must have worked on his other teachers.

A dud Doctor is harder to hide, as the saying goes, they bury their mistakes.

It is not rocket science that the best rise to the top in all fields. Take an AFL squad, the best get well remunerated, lots get drafted but dont make the grade. Is the teachers union part of the problem by representing the lowest common denominator.

Teaching should be a profession that involves constant renewal as is the law or accounting, basically 40 hrs/week 46 weeks a year, say 1800 + hours plus personal development.

It's not about professionalism or workload - I've worked in both accounting and teaching and teaching has higher standards for professionalism and hourly workload.

You are correct in that unionisation makes it harder for schools to get rid of ongoing staff who are clearly ineffectual teachers. However, the other aspect is in the metrics by which you can of measure a good accountant vs a good teacher.

It's relatively easy measure the quality of an accountant as there are few variables - efficiency is measured in billable hours, minimal errors, client feedback etc.

In teaching there are a lot more variables - variances in student cohort (innate intelligence, work ethic, socioeconomic status, wellbeing, parental support), variations in measurability of student growth, variations in level of student rapport, variations in the notion of what 'good teaching' is (ie. is 'good teaching' when the student is able to regurgitate content in a test? or is 'good teaching' giving students the necessary skills to find, use and apply knowledge it in the real world - outside of a test environment).

 

[Kwality]

VPNs are popular and I confiscated a Wi-Fi modem dongle just this week during an extra - student tried to tell me it was just a USB stick which must have worked on his other teachers.


It's not about professionalism or workload - I've worked in both accounting and teaching and teaching has higher standards for professionalism and hourly workload.

You are correct in that unionisation makes it harder for schools to get rid of ongoing staff who are clearly ineffectual teachers. However, the other aspect is in the metrics by which you can of measure a good accountant vs a good teacher.

It's relatively easy measure the quality of an accountant as there are few variables - efficiency is measured in billable hours, minimal errors, client feedback etc.

In teaching there are a lot more variables - variances in student cohort (innate intelligence, work ethic, socioeconomic status, wellbeing, parental support), variations in measurability of student growth, variations in level of student rapport, variations in the notion of what 'good teaching' is (ie. is 'good teaching' when the student is able to regurgitate content in a test? or is 'good teaching' giving students the necessary skills to find, use and apply knowledge it in the real world - outside of a test environment).

Dont deny your comparison with the accounting profession, although recovered hours (the $s) was the measure back then. Obviously what is expected increases as both experience & proficiency (& the $s) develops. Some never develop beyond book keeping (nothing wrong with that) & that the profession can accomodate them, others go on to be very well remunerated where their skills are recognised.
Dont believe one size fits all when dealing with the many demands of a family business finances is any less stressful than the kids education.

I certainly agree with whether teaching is, or can be measured by passing a test, as its not that simple after that test is long forgotten. The profession should be drivings education standards not the Unions.

 

[Suspense]

Dont deny your comparison with the accounting profession, although recovered hours (the $s) was the measure back then. Obviously what is expected increases as both experience & proficiency (& the $s) develops. Some never develop beyond book keeping (nothing wrong with that) & that the profession can accomodate them, others go on to be very well remunerated where their skills are recognised.

Sure - but then you would be comparing experienced senior accountants to year level coordinators or principal class teachers - where the metrics are inherently less measurable (leadership qualities, strategic direction, developing and implementing new systems, resolving disputes, maintaining relationships with external stakeholders).

My point is that, at the coalface, it is much easier to measure the effectiveness of a worker bee accountant than it is to measure the effectiveness of a classroom teacher.

 

[Kwality]

Sure - but then you would be comparing experienced senior accountants to year level coordinators or principal class teachers - where the metrics are inherently less measurable (leadership qualities, strategic direction, developing and implementing new systems, resolving disputes, maintaining relationships with external stakeholders).

My point is that, at the coalface, it is much easier to measure the effectiveness of a worker bee accountant than it is to measure the effectiveness of a classroom teacher.

I take your point & my contact with education has been positive. I know its not a simple fix.

 

[CliffMcTainshaw]

The average ATAR of aspiring teachers has risen from 62.7 to 76.2 over the past three years, and the number of students applying for education courses has declined. The top 10% of students move into fields that have higher pay and higher status. If you limit teachers to top 10% of students, you won't have enough teachers.

Education, as a field, as a career path, and as a public and private good, is not as highly valued or respected in Australia as it in Singapore.


Education is a Government responsibility and accountability is election day.

If we are falling behind other countries because Govt and lobby groups prefer to engage in petty class warfare, rather than ensure all students (including low SES) get a quality education (as they do in Singapore), then that sounds like Govt mismanagement to me.

When I did teacher training in the early 70's we were shown the percentage of the GDP that was spent on education in the 60's. It was 27%. It had dropped to a bit below 25% when I went through. Teachers wages really went backwards from the 60's. In 2015 the percentage of the GDP spent on education had dropped to 5.9%. It's no wonder that the standard required for teaching went backwards for so long when the starting wage for a first year teacher was about 35K. People voted with their feet and moved to jobs that paid a lot more.

Teacher wages have increased over recent years but compare the a top of the classroom teachers salary of about $108K in Victoria to that of a Traffic Controller with a Stop/Go sign who is also paid $108K, but with a little overtime can earn $140K. Or compare a electrician who completes a 4 year apprenticeship and becomes an electrician who starts on just under $89K. After 10 years they will be on just over $139K. With a little overtime that can easily jump to more than $170K. Similarly a teacher who after completing their 4 year degree begins teaching on $72K and after 11 years as a classroom teacher can earn $108K. Those 4 years will have cost around $23K (depending on the subjects you choose) in HECS fees. During the same length of time the apprentice electrician will have earnt over $233K. If you add in HECS then he would be $256K better off over those 4 years.

An accountant friend has asked me about how his two sons should go about getting apprenticed as electricians. When I asked why he told me that every self employed electrician he did the books for earned far more than he did. He told me that every one of them earned from $300K to $580K. A lot more than any Principal would earn.

I loved my time in teaching, but if I were to advise my younger self on whether I should go to Uni or get a job, I know what I'd be recommending.

Edit: I should have added the $23K to $233K not subtracted it.

 

[Kwality]

When I did teacher training in the early 70's we were shown the percentage of the GDP that was spent on education in the 60's. It was 27%. It had dropped to a bit below 25% when I went through. Teachers wages really went backwards from the 60's. In 2015 the percentage of the GDP spent on education had dropped to 5.9%. It's no wonder that the standard required for teaching went backwards for so long when the starting wage for a first year teacher was about 35K. People voted with their feet and moved to jobs that paid a lot more.

Teacher wages have increased over recent years but compare the a top of the classroom teachers salary of about $108K in Victoria to that of a Traffic Controller with a Stop/Go sign who is also paid $108K, but with a little overtime can earn $140K. Or compare a electrician who completes a 4 year apprenticeship and becomes an electrician who starts on just under $89K. After 10 years they will be on just over $139K. With a little overtime that can easily jump to more than $170K. Similarly a teacher who after completing their 4 year degree begins teaching on $72K and after 11 years as a classroom teacher can earn $108K. Those 4 years will have cost around $23K (depending on the subjects you choose) in HECS fees. During the same length of time the apprentice electrician will have earnt over $233K. He would already be $210K better off over those 4 years.

An accountant friend has asked me about how his two sons should go about getting apprenticed as electricians. When I asked why he told me that every self employed electrician he did the books for earned far more than he did. He told me that every one of them earned from $300K to $580K. A lot more than any Principal would earn.

I loved my time in teaching, but if I were to advise my younger self on whether I should go to Uni or get a job, I know what I'd be recommending.

Did you research the Traffic Controllers $108k claim? If so why omit the detail?

 

[CliffMcTainshaw]

Did you research the Traffic Controllers $108k claim? If so why omit the detail?

Yes, I heard someone on a radio interview describing the job. I researched it after hearing the interview as I couldn't believe it. It's true. I was really pissed off at having a degree and 45 years experience and ending up with the same pay packet. Mind you it would be a mind numbingly boring job.

Not sure what you mean by omitting the detail as I never mentioned research for any of the other things I described.

But I researched them, except for the education GDP figure from the 60's. I remember that because our lecturer was complaining about the drop in education funding. He got us to try and guess the figure before he showed it to us. Not a soul in the lecture theatre was anywhere near close.

I will tell you something else as well. In the 11 years that a teacher takes to get to the top of the classroom scale, an electrician from the end of their apprenticeship over the same length of time will have earned $277,253 more. From the time the electrician began work as an apprentice and the time a teacher began their Uni course and both getting to the top of their pay scales, the electrician will have earnt a little over $533K more than the teacher (if you take into account HECS fees).
Oh, and electricians work a 36 hour week. Theoretically so do teachers, but usually another 15 hours on top of the 36. You don't get paid overtime, you just get overtime.

To be honest I can’t understand why so many careers teachers continually recommend students to continue on to Uni when you can earn a hell of a lot more doing a trade. It can only be that their narrow view of education and careers is because that’s all they have experienced. School, school, school and school.

Holidays are good but there will be times when all you will do is sleep and rest or get sick and recover. All bookings for planes, accommodation, tours etc. increase during school holidays, even petrol goes up. So your holidays will always be more expensive than for non teachers.

Until teachers are paid a hell of a lot more you won't get the top 10% applying.

 

[CrowInFiji]

Yes, I heard someone on a radio interview describing the job. I researched it after hearing the interview as I couldn't believe it. It's true. I was really pissed off at having a degree and 45 years experience and ending up with the same pay packet. Mind you it would be a mind numbingly boring job.

Not sure what you mean by omitting the detail as I never mentioned research for any of the other things I described.

But I researched them, except for the education GDP figure from the 60's. I remember that because our lecturer was complaining about the drop in education funding. He got us to try and guess the figure before he showed it to us. Not a soul in the lecture theatre was anywhere near close.

I will tell you something else as well. In the 11 years that a teacher takes to get to the top of the classroom scale, an electrician from the end of their apprenticeship over the same length of time will have earned $277,253 more. From the time the electrician began work as an apprentice and the time a teacher began their Uni course and both getting to the top of their pay scales, the electrician will have earnt a little over $533K more than the teacher (if you take into account HECS fees).
Oh, and electricians work a 36 hour week. Theoretically so do teachers, but usually another 15 hours on top of the 36. You don't get paid overtime, you just get overtime.

To be honest I can’t understand why so many careers teachers continually recommend students to continue on to Uni when you can earn a hell of a lot more doing a trade. It can only be that their narrow view of education and careers is because that’s all they have experienced. School, school, school and school.

Holidays are good but there will be times when all you will do is sleep and rest or get sick and recover. All bookings for planes, accommodation, tours etc. increase during school holidays, even petrol goes up. So your holidays will always be more expensive than for non teachers.

Until teachers are paid a hell of a lot more you won't get the top 10% applying.

Yeah, gonna stop you right there. Teachers aren't paid great - but the overwhelming majority of sparkies are on sub-110k and don't even get me started on the traffic controllers.

You've listened to someone who has experienced a job offering $× p/h and extrapolated for FTE.

As with any job there are those who extract the maximum $ but the majority kick as much shit as the rest of us in the middle classes.

Also just on teaching, it would be a lot easier, rather than trying to attract the top 10% or whatever is being discussed in here, to just introduce a moderately difficult spelling test. Half the teachers would fail.