Secondary Thinking about becoming a teacher

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CrowInFiji said:
Yeah, gonna stop you right there. Teachers aren't paid great - but the overwhelming majority of sparkies are on sub-110k and don't even get me started on the traffic controllers.

You've listened to someone who has experienced a job offering $× p/h and extrapolated for FTE.

As with any job there are those who extract the maximum $ but the majority kick as much sh*t as the rest of us in the middle classes.

Also just on teaching, it would be a lot easier, rather than trying to attract the top 10% or whatever is being discussed in here, to just introduce a moderately difficult spelling test. Half the teachers would fail.
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No BS, Check the figures. Work it out for yourself. I am correct and that's without taking into account any allowances.
https://www.etuvic.com.au/ETUV/Your...spx?hkey=74c05a15-a0db-4a71-a9b6-6828133d0256

And just so you can compare it to a teachers pay scale.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teacher.pdf

Besides that, I'm a teacher (or was). I always do my research to make sure my facts are correct, You wouldn't want your kid's teacher doing a rabbit proof fence on them.
 
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Unless you are on the mines or unionised construction an electrician's wage isn't that crash hot.
CliffMcTainshaw said:
No BS, Check the figures. Work it out for yourself. I am correct and that's without taking into account any allowances.
https://www.etuvic.com.au/ETUV/Your...spx?hkey=74c05a15-a0db-4a71-a9b6-6828133d0256

And just so you can compare it to a teachers pay scale.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teacher.pdf
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That's being on unionised construction sites which isn't that easy to get... anyone working domestic for example would get a fraction of that without any of the BS perks. An ETU membership isn't worth dogshit to anyone in that sector.

Working in construction also bad for getting let go on the spot when a job finishes.
 
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McGowan all confirming what we already knew. We are glorified babysitters during lockdown.
 

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CliffMcTainshaw said:
No BS, Check the figures. Work it out for yourself. I am correct and that's without taking into account any allowances.
https://www.etuvic.com.au/ETUV/Your...spx?hkey=74c05a15-a0db-4a71-a9b6-6828133d0256

And just so you can compare it to a teachers pay scale.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teacher.pdf

Besides that, I'm a teacher (or was). I always do my research to make sure my facts are correct, You wouldn't want your kid's teacher doing a rabbit proof fence on them.
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Arguing the toss is going to be time wasting for you and I but suffice to say I work intimately with data around salaries across a number of professions and conduct research and prepare reports on earning potential versus reality in thise professions.

If being a sparky was the ticket to riches for just 4 years apprenticeship everyone would be doing it. There is a reason the highest paying jobs require huge amounts of study over more than a decade.

The salary steps for teachers (and most public servants) are pretty good indicators- but once you get into the private industries they can be downright misleading at worst - or open to misinterpretation at best.

I say again, if you line 100 of them up, just a handful are making a motza (usually because they work 7 days a week, 12 hours a day or else have been in the game long enough to have built a little empire).

You may think you know the exception to the rule but have you seen their final return?
 
Kram said:
Unless you are on the mines or unionised construction an electrician's wage isn't that crash hot.
That's being on unionised construction sites which isn't that easy to get... anyone working domestic for example would get a fraction of that without any of the BS perks. An ETU membership isn't worth dogshit to anyone in that sector.

Working in construction also bad for getting let go on the spot when a job finishes.
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My son hasn't had any problems in his 15 years in the industry. Lots of his friends are working for themselves doing domestic work and are making more than he is. Go and get an electrician to do some work at your place and you will find out for yourself.
 
CliffMcTainshaw said:
My son hasn't had any problems in his 15 years in the industry. Lots of his friends are working for themselves doing domestic work and are making more than he is. Go and get an electrician to do some work at your place and you will find out for yourself.
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Again, the bill you get for doing the work isn't a good indicator. It simply isn't. Yes, the amount sparkies charge for changing a powerpoint is criminal for what is essentially a 3 minute job in most cases but for all of those jobs, they also have the jobs where the margin isn't as flash. Yes, they will mark up prices for supplies to get cash but the bill still isn't a net profit.

The domestic sparky market is absolutely saturated and is quickly experiencing the same results that any field of competition experiences.

Go onto a building site and expect crapper wages and even less job security.

As for the mates making more - how would you know or have they just not bothered correcting you?

Some of the highest debt is held by tradespeople as they rush to buy shit. You should well know that a tradie can have more jobs than they can handle in March and nothing in April.

Once again, if it was easy street we'd all be doing it.

For some people, working 9-5 and some more on top is preferable to 7 days a week with a higher cash ceiling.
 
CliffMcTainshaw said:
My son hasn't had any problems in his 15 years in the industry. Lots of his friends are working for themselves doing domestic work and are making more than he is. Go and get an electrician to do some work at your place and you will find out for yourself.
Click to expand...

I also wonder how many of his mates are paying themselves super and buying shit they can't actually afford. Still very interested as to how you know how well they are going.
 
CliffMcTainshaw said:
My son hasn't had any problems in his 15 years in the industry. Lots of his friends are working for themselves doing domestic work and are making more than he is. Go and get an electrician to do some work at your place and you will find out for yourself.
Click to expand...
I do the work myself mate. I hold an A grade license.

I live in a small town and pretty much know all the contractors, nobody apart from the one bloke infamous for overcharging over 40 years seems to live anything but a fairly modest lifestyle. And unlike the city this is where they pretty much always have as much work as they want.
 
CliffMcTainshaw said:
I talk to my son, he talks to his friends.
Click to expand...

Well of course his friends aren't going to correct your son and say " nah we are shitkickers too". Natural male competitiveness aside, that flash ute they took finance for? Unaffordable when work dries up.

Super accounts with 15k in them from when they worked at maccas? Lost to fees soon.

That shiny renovation out the back of their house? Well, one undeniable bonus of being a tradie is you usually have tradie mates - cheap and or free labour for home.

If someone said to a teacher "gee 108k isn't a bad wicket" you really think they are going to say "oh no, I'm only Band 5 so on 83k?" Nope, they'll let the person believe they are on 108k. It's simply human nature to project, or allow others to project onto them, a better life. Yet minute numbers of sparkies appear on our rich lists in my research nor do the majority afford to call themselves anything above middle class (not upper middle). The only ones that do are more aptly described as businessmen rather than practising sparkies anymore.

Common sense tells you it's just another job with plusses and negatives as with any other.
 
CliffMcTainshaw said:
When I did teacher training in the early 70's we were shown the percentage of the GDP that was spent on education in the 60's. It was 27%. It had dropped to a bit below 25% when I went through. Teachers wages really went backwards from the 60's. In 2015 the percentage of the GDP spent on education had dropped to 5.9%. It's no wonder that the standard required for teaching went backwards for so long when the starting wage for a first year teacher was about 35K. People voted with their feet and moved to jobs that paid a lot more.

Teacher wages have increased over recent years but compare the a top of the classroom teachers salary of about $108K in Victoria to that of a Traffic Controller with a Stop/Go sign who is also paid $108K, but with a little overtime can earn $140K. Or compare a electrician who completes a 4 year apprenticeship and becomes an electrician who starts on just under $89K. After 10 years they will be on just over $139K. With a little overtime that can easily jump to more than $170K. Similarly a teacher who after completing their 4 year degree begins teaching on $72K and after 11 years as a classroom teacher can earn $108K. Those 4 years will have cost around $23K (depending on the subjects you choose) in HECS fees. During the same length of time the apprentice electrician will have earnt over $233K. If you add in HECS then he would be $256K better off over those 4 years.

An accountant friend has asked me about how his two sons should go about getting apprenticed as electricians. When I asked why he told me that every self employed electrician he did the books for earned far more than he did. He told me that every one of them earned from $300K to $580K. A lot more than any Principal would earn.

I loved my time in teaching, but if I were to advise my younger self on whether I should go to Uni or get a job, I know what I'd be recommending.

Edit: I should have added the $23K to $233K not subtracted it.
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Yep. I love teaching. Love working with the kids and being able to know I can make some difference to their lives, but the pay for hours worked compared to a trade is an eye opener.

Yes, you can say we are getting 12 weeks off, but many work during these, and as one Assistant Prin told me, Prins can actually call us in to work as we really are only entitled to 4 weeks off a year.

The actual unpaid overtime teachers can do as well is a big turn off. The AEU has raised figures of working up to 12-20hrs of unpaid overtime.

I know I do about 7-8 as I don't have a classroom load so I can get a lot done in my standard work day.
 
CrowInFiji said:
Also just on teaching, it would be a lot easier, rather than trying to attract the top 10% or whatever is being discussed in here, to just introduce a moderately difficult spelling test. Half the teachers would fail.
Click to expand...
Literacy and Numeracy Test for Initial Teacher Education

CrowInFiji said:
If someone said to a teacher "gee 108k isn't a bad wicket" you really think they are going to say "oh no, I'm only Band 5 so on 83k?" Nope, they'll let the person believe they are on 108k. It's simply human nature to project, or allow others to project onto them, a better life.
Click to expand...
Incorrect. Part of the professional requirements of being a teacher is to complain about one's pay - whenever the opportunity presents itself.


The comparison between classroom teaching and electricians is a bit misleading because classroom teaching has a relatively fixed career ceiling - whereas Electricians have more opportunities to advance their career financially through paid OT or by undertaking post-trade qualifications such as HV, PLC programming, Instrumentation and moving into well-paid Industrial/Commercial/Mining roles.

In Vic, the only pay jump available to a classroom teacher is to take on a LT/LS role - which equates to an extra $7,800 p.a. (after tax).
 
Suspense said:
Literacy and Numeracy Test for Initial Teacher Education


Incorrect. Part of the professional requirements of being a teacher is to complain about one's pay - whenever the opportunity presents itself.


The comparison between classroom teaching and electricians is a bit misleading because classroom teaching has a relatively fixed career ceiling - whereas Electricians have more opportunities to advance their career financially through paid OT or by undertaking post-trade qualifications such as HV, PLC programming, Instrumentation and moving into well-paid Industrial/Commercial/Mining roles.

In Vic, the only pay jump available to a classroom teacher is to take on a LT/LS role - which equates to an extra $7,800 p.a. (after tax).
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Mate, I'm not going to listen to anyone who tries to tell me that sparkies have this rich pathway available to them that is the norm and not the exception. Mining is one avenue yes but rhe work life balance is shit. Otherwise any othrr type of role to aspire to is off the tools and into supervisory or managerial roles. I have literally written government-funded reports into this shit. I have seen the data.

What you have failed to understand is that teachers also have quirky off-shoots of their traditional roles into higher paying jobs. They can become principal class where the ceiling is just under 200k, albeit most are sub-150, consulting work and then there are regional and departmental roles, ELS, SELS etc. There are also opportunities for teachers to earn extra by undertaking extra duties and such beyond the classroom (exam marking, some extra-curricular work). Again, most of these higher paying roles require teaches to down tools (not teach in the classroom) and instead take up.managerial roles.

I am not for one minute trying to compare the two, but they, like most other professions have an upper limit that very, very few reach and the bulk are in the lower-middle to middle class range.
 

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CrowInFiji said:
Mate, I'm not going to listen to anyone who tries to tell me that sparkies have this rich pathway available to them that is the norm and not the exception. Mining is one avenue yes but rhe work life balance is sh*t. Otherwise any othrr type of role to aspire to is off the tools and into supervisory or managerial roles. I have literally written government-funded reports into this sh*t. I have seen the data.
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Are you saying that industrial/commercial sparkies are not well paid? Anecdotal, but my dad earns around $180k to $220k (depending on amount of OT). He has many post-trade quals and years of experience.

FWIW an argument is more convincing if you present the data - rather than tell others 'I've seen the data'.

What you have failed to understand is that teachers also have quirky off-shoots of their traditional roles into higher paying jobs. They can become principal class where the ceiling is just under 200k, albeit most are sub-150, consulting work and then there are regional and departmental roles, ELS, SELS etc. There are also opportunities for teachers to earn extra by undertaking extra duties and such beyond the classroom (exam marking, some extra-curricular work). Again, most of these higher paying roles require teaches to down tools (not teach in the classroom) and instead take up.managerial roles.
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I didn't "fail to understand" anything mate - I didn't mention non-teaching roles because I was explicitly referring to classroom teaching.

Perhaps work on your reading comprehension?

Besides which, this very point is part of the issue - if the top, most highly driven, and highly competent teachers need to leave the classroom in order to earn more pay - who is left in the classroom with the kids? (Hint: It ain't the top 10%).
 
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CrowInFiji said:
Well of course his friends aren't going to correct your son and say " nah we are shitkickers too". Natural male competitiveness aside, that flash ute they took finance for? Unaffordable when work dries up.

Super accounts with 15k in them from when they worked at maccas? Lost to fees soon.

That shiny renovation out the back of their house? Well, one undeniable bonus of being a tradie is you usually have tradie mates - cheap and or free labour for home.

If someone said to a teacher "gee 108k isn't a bad wicket" you really think they are going to say "oh no, I'm only Band 5 so on 83k?" Nope, they'll let the person believe they are on 108k. It's simply human nature to project, or allow others to project onto them, a better life. Yet minute numbers of sparkies appear on our rich lists in my research nor do the majority afford to call themselves anything above middle class (not upper middle). The only ones that do are more aptly described as businessmen rather than practising sparkies anymore.

Common sense tells you it's just another job with plusses and negatives as with any other.
Click to expand...
I can also say that he has worked for his friends in between jobs and on weekends, he knows exactly how much they get. He also gets his super and has only one super account, haven't you heard of portable super accounts. Utes are also tax deductible and so is the cost of running them.
 
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CrowInFiji said:
What you have failed to understand is that teachers also have quirky off-shoots of their traditional roles into higher paying jobs. They can become principal class where the ceiling is just under 200k, albeit most are sub-150, consulting work and then there are regional and departmental roles, ELS, SELS etc. There are also opportunities for teachers to earn extra by undertaking extra duties and such beyond the classroom (exam marking, some extra-curricular work). Again, most of these higher paying roles require teaches to down tools (not teach in the classroom) and instead take up.managerial roles.
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My school had 170 full time teachers There is a principal and 3 VP's, there are 3 year level coordinators and about 8 people with other higher paid duties. Not easy for the majority of teachers to get those positions and all but the Principal class are on 3 to 5 year contracts. Only people who have actually done exam marking understand why you do it. It's mainly to get a better understanding of what the examiners are looking for so you can improve your teaching and hopefully improve your students results. There are very few teachers who do it for a sustained length of time because it's so poorly remunerated.
 
CliffMcTainshaw said:
My school had 170 full time teachers There is a principal and 3 VP's, there are 3 year level coordinators and about 8 people with other higher paid duties. Not easy for the majority of teachers to get those positions and all but the Principal class are on 3 to 5 year contracts. Only people who have actually done exam marking understand why you do it. It's mainly to get a better understanding of what the examiners are looking for so you can improve your teaching and hopefully improve your students results. There are very few teachers who do it for a sustained length of time because it's so poorly remunerated.
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I honestly dont think a school that size needs 3 VPs. I was at one which had 4 but we had over 1200 students. My current one had 4 VPs but over 2 campuses.

On a different note, I am one of those teachers who are on higher paid duties. It is ridiculously hard to get and hold on to (as they are all fixed 2-5years and you have to reapply in most cases after that fixed term).

I fell into the inexperienced notion in believing that once you get it, you are in it ongoing (as the position said ongoing on Recruitment Online) but you stay at the school ongoing but as a standard teacher if you are unsuccessful in getting that higher paid duty after applying again.

It is also harder to get those positions, as generally speaking, most schools appoint to teachers internally, rather than award to those outside their school unless they have a skill set they want and the person blew them out of the water.
 
pepsi said:
3 APs sounds right for 170 teaching staff. We have 1450 students and approximately 120 teaching staff with 3 APs.
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There are a bit over 2000 students. In addition to the 170 full time teachers, there are other part time teachers. They could have had 4 VP's but chose instead to use that money for other programs and duties.
 
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I've been following this thread for years - have spent the last 12 years working across Justice, Child Protection and Education (non-teaching sector), have loved working with kids and would like to translate this passion into the classroom.

Looked into the transition and every University in WA said I'd need to study about 3-4 years full-time, the Masters +non-award units to make up a specialisation or even needing to do an entire 4 year undergraduate. Gave up as I have kids and mortgages.

Then my teacher mate told me about the 'Teach for Australia' program and to look into it as it targets career-changers. Had an online consult with them and couldn't believe it - all you needed was an undergraduate degree in something else. I can't believe I haven't read about it in this forum, effectively:

- Apply for the program and gain admission - 2 year Masters + working as a teacher.
- Study 5 weeks at an intensive residential campus in Melbourne (however moving online/other locations soon)
- Begin teaching immediately in the new year at 0.8 FTE, on top of this over the next 2 years you will complete the Masters (%75 as %25 is completed in the 5-week residential campus).
- Your school must be a partner-school, and are 'hard-to-staff' schools in lower-socioeconomic regions or regional/remote regions.
- After completing the Masters and the 2 years of teaching you are a qualified teacher.

The only real 'catch' for me is my undergraduate in Psychology which I have no interest in teaching, however I did a bunch of writing electives that will nearly make up an English major.

I'm in the process of applying, the wages over this time are average but management - you receive %80 of a first-yearing teaching salary so would be around 58k-62k. That's far more manageable than giving up work and filling glasses at a bar while studying at Uni for the next 4 years.

My teacher mate said this course is hated by many teachers and educational institutes, in that it demeans the profession and undermines the teaching qualifications others have had to follow. Personally, it is the only way I would ever be able to transition into teaching, and as my interest is in education Aboriginal and other disadvantaged groups this would suit me perfectly.
 
StingBitten said:
I've been following this thread for years - have spent the last 12 years working across Justice, Child Protection and Education (non-teaching sector), have loved working with kids and would like to translate this passion into the classroom.

Looked into the transition and every University in WA said I'd need to study about 3-4 years full-time, the Masters +non-award units to make up a specialisation or even needing to do an entire 4 year undergraduate. Gave up as I have kids and mortgages.

Then my teacher mate told me about the 'Teach for Australia' program and to look into it as it targets career-changers. Had an online consult with them and couldn't believe it - all you needed was an undergraduate degree in something else. I can't believe I haven't read about it in this forum, effectively:

- Apply for the program and gain admission - 2 year Masters + working as a teacher.
- Study 5 weeks at an intensive residential campus in Melbourne (however moving online/other locations soon)
- Begin teaching immediately in the new year at 0.8 FTE, on top of this over the next 2 years you will complete the Masters (%75 as %25 is completed in the 5-week residential campus).
- Your school must be a partner-school, and are 'hard-to-staff' schools in lower-socioeconomic regions or regional/remote regions.
- After completing the Masters and the 2 years of teaching you are a qualified teacher.

The only real 'catch' for me is my undergraduate in Psychology which I have no interest in teaching, however I did a bunch of writing electives that will nearly make up an English major.

I'm in the process of applying, the wages over this time are average but management - you receive %80 of a first-yearing teaching salary so would be around 58k-62k. That's far more manageable than giving up work and filling glasses at a bar while studying at Uni for the next 4 years.

My teacher mate said this course is hated by many teachers and educational institutes, in that it demeans the profession and undermines the teaching qualifications others have had to follow. Personally, it is the only way I would ever be able to transition into teaching, and as my interest is in education Aboriginal and other disadvantaged groups this would suit me perfectly.
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Hey mate, I'm currently completing the program. I'll send you a pm in case you wish to discuss it further.
 
StingBitten said:
.

My teacher mate said this course is hated by many teachers and educational institutes, in that it demeans the profession and undermines the teaching qualifications others have had to follow.
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Really hate this attitude of other professionals that it’s the hard way or nothing. There’s no better training than on the job training - almost nothing I learnt in the methodology part of my master of teaching prepared me for the class. Some of the older teachers still don’t like the way I teach as I’m relationships first, content second…. And I know they don’t like that a lot of kids say I’m their favourite teacher. But I have almost zero behaviour problems in my class and really good student engagement. I learnt this through trial and error, not by memorising chapter 13, “approaches to classroom control”.

These sorts of degrees are great as they get people
Who really want to teach and have good outside knowledge into the sector - which is what is needed. It’s almost the same as an industry expert vs a career politician for me


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Secondary Thinking about becoming a teacher

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