Secondary Thinking about becoming a teacher

[Gibbke]

If you're prepared to relocate - Tully SHS, where I am, the pointy bit of Qld, has an ongoing battle every year to fill the quota. There would be tons of places in Qld like this, not to mention down south. The DP goes down to Brisbane's DP conference every year and students who haven't graduated yet are snapped up. Far North Qld, and the deal is usually a three year contract. Easy enough for Qlders, not sure how that works for interstaters...I was living in Brisbane when I had to do interviews for a rating and supply work, but I know of one or two young teachers here who seemed to just lob in from work interstate...didn't really ask. A fairly constant turnover of staff, but the main reason for that is people do mandatory country service and then go back home, either to SEQ or Cairns. The kids are easy, community's fine (we have to tell locals that other areas of the world lock their doors!), and if you're into BCF then you're in paradise...! Downside - if you really need the rat race it's not here, you'll be watching most of your footy online, and you'll probably be talking to yourself if you want a decent footy conversation - one of the reasons I frequent this place and hang out with you idiots...! I moved up with a now divorced wife for a new family life on the Sunshine Coast, and I needed the extra points you get for teaching in the country. The rate I was going in Brisbane, the highly sought after SC jobs would have been locked out for me forever. Then we took one look at this place, built a house, and the bad stuff happened later, but no SC thoughts remain - if I went anywhere, which due to custody arrangements I won't, it'd be Tassie. Tully is worth 3 points a year, which I'll max out at the end of 2023 with 30 (they count what you got over the last ten years, and this is my tenth in Tully), so I'd walk into a SC job, but I don't want to...

I'd be thinking, if you're really serious about the profession, a few years here in the sticks and stay until you have a job lined up elsewhere...surely it beats hand in mouth temp work and rejections with no fallback stories you guys are telling...? As much as I sympathise with anyone above travelling 100km for a job, well...I moved 1700km here, and anywhere 100km out of Melbourne would still look like NY compared to here...! And your young years are very overrated...you won't gaf what you did at 25, refusing to move from the "lifestyle" in a capital city, if you're thinking at 40 "I wish I'd started this earlier"...

 

[CrowToon]

CrowToon I am still yet to get it.

I have been given another year where I am and then will have to go back if I can't find ongoing.

Feedback I got when interviewing for the ongoing internal positions was that I didn't sound passionate enough and didnt explain the wholistic approach to professional learning and obsevations and how it improved my approach (as such based on that and application I wasnt top 4 out of the 6 that applied).

My prin won't be happy, but I will keep looking for ongoing throughout the year.

I mean, you can either accept the feedback as the actual truth (and if it is then that's 100% on you) but if you felt you paid a bit of attention to that stuff and they still come back with that then what you've just found out is that you aren't well liked at your school. Most of the time they've made their minds up before anyone steps into an interview room when it comes to internal ongoing offerings.

Hard reality to face but the sooner you get on the front the sooner you go somewhere you are actually appreciated.

 

[raskolnikov]

If you're prepared to relocate - Tully SHS, where I am, the pointy bit of Qld, has an ongoing battle every year to fill the quota. There would be tons of places in Qld like this, not to mention down south. The DP goes down to Brisbane's DP conference every year and students who haven't graduated yet are snapped up. Far North Qld, and the deal is usually a three year contract. Easy enough for Qlders, not sure how that works for interstaters...I was living in Brisbane when I had to do interviews for a rating and supply work, but I know of one or two young teachers here who seemed to just lob in from work interstate...didn't really ask. A fairly constant turnover of staff, but the main reason for that is people do mandatory country service and then go back home, either to SEQ or Cairns. The kids are easy, community's fine (we have to tell locals that other areas of the world lock their doors!), and if you're into BCF then you're in paradise...! Downside - if you really need the rat race it's not here, you'll be watching most of your footy online, and you'll probably be talking to yourself if you want a decent footy conversation - one of the reasons I frequent this place and hang out with you idiots...! I moved up with a now divorced wife for a new family life on the Sunshine Coast, and I needed the extra points you get for teaching in the country. The rate I was going in Brisbane, the highly sought after SC jobs would have been locked out for me forever. Then we took one look at this place, built a house, and the bad stuff happened later, but no SC thoughts remain - if I went anywhere, which due to custody arrangements I won't, it'd be Tassie. Tully is worth 3 points a year, which I'll max out at the end of 2023 with 30 (they count what you got over the last ten years, and this is my tenth in Tully), so I'd walk into a SC job, but I don't want to...

I'd be thinking, if you're really serious about the profession, a few years here in the sticks and stay until you have a job lined up elsewhere...surely it beats hand in mouth temp work and rejections with no fallback stories you guys are telling...? As much as I sympathise with anyone above travelling 100km for a job, well...I moved 1700km here, and anywhere 100km out of Melbourne would still look like NY compared to here...! And your young years are very overrated...you won't gaf what you did at 25, refusing to move from the "lifestyle" in a capital city, if you're thinking at 40 "I wish I'd started this earlier"...

You don't even need to go to the pointy end of Queensland. I live on the Capricorn Coast and they're short of teachers here.

 

[ash_1050]

Was having lunch with mates on Friday, including mate A who left teaching 13 months ago to work as a software developer instead.
Mate B mentioned he had a colleague who was thinking of changing from software dev to be a teacher.
Mate A's response was a succinct "tell him don't, he'll regret it".

 

[matty lloyd the champ]

Was having lunch with mates on Friday, including mate A who left teaching 13 months ago to work as a software developer instead.
Mate B mentioned he had a colleague who was thinking of changing from software dev to be a teacher.
Mate A's response was a succinct "tell him don't, he'll regret it".

Really depends where you end up and also what you want from your job.

I've taught at a school where the behaviour was shocking but the expectations on you were very little. You could easily clock in and clock out doing the bare minimum and cash in an easy triple figures once you hit the top of the pay scale. The negative was that during those hours at school, the lessons were brutal.

I'm teaching at one of the better government schools now in the inner south east. The behaviour is pretty good but the demands on the teachers in terms of curriculum documentation and preparation is pretty high. Great for career development but pretty stressful outside of classes. Your time in the classroom is piss easy compared to all the meetings and bs outside of it.

 

[Gibbke]

Was having lunch with mates on Friday, including mate A who left teaching 13 months ago to work as a software developer instead.
Mate B mentioned he had a colleague who was thinking of changing from software dev to be a teacher.
Mate A's response was a succinct "tell him don't, he'll regret it".

I'm a music teacher, and relocated 1700km here with a family to be exactly that...that was the deal, I'm THE music teacher, and that's what I've always been...

Until now. A new Hod has joined the staff, but as a boss of middle school and not as a boss of Arts or Music. I still have my old Hod for that. However, as she took the promotion, I can assume they said "Music teacher? No problem, we'll just split it between you and him". Noone ever asked if Gibbke was ok with this, and teeth were gritted when early this year, when I called a meeting to say "I want it all back", they said "gee, you should have told us" last year...

So this year is a grind, f###ing horrible with the non-music load I've been given. Hoping the current rain tonight goes deluge and Friday is wiped out...we have flood days here, and I'm wishing day to day for any excuse not to go to work, it's that bad...! When they put out the preferences for next year, though...I'll be emphatic and they'll know Gibbo "told us" before we get into 2024...!

For what it's worth, anyway...they can do what they want, I guess. But in an area of high turnover and transience, where they offer grads permanency if they'll do the contract, I'm an experienced senior specialist teacher who wants to be there and isn't leaving due to custody and age...I only want one thing...

 

[footy75]

Primary teaching can be flipping brutal now days. Depends on school, leadership and who you get stuck with.

Lesson plans, marking, bullshit meetings, reports, kids, teachers, parents, data, documentation.

 

[Forward Press]

Primary teaching can be *ing brutal now days. Depends on school, leadership and who you get stuck with.

Lesson plans, marking, bullshit meetings, reports, kids, teachers, parents, data, documentation.

This is also secondary teaching, is it not? At times it seems the administrative time is much higher than actual teaching time and the leadership has lost sight of what teaching is actually about.

 

[Forward Press]

Was having lunch with mates on Friday, including mate A who left teaching 13 months ago to work as a software developer instead.
Mate B mentioned he had a colleague who was thinking of changing from software dev to be a teacher.
Mate A's response was a succinct "tell him don't, he'll regret it".

I've had this conversation many times:

"Oh, you're a teacher? Must be awesome with all these holidays and only working 6 hours a day when you do work lol"
"I know right? Why aren't you one then? You complain about your job quite a lot"
"Nah, too much stress and dealing with kids and their parents would suck lol"
"..."

Of course there are significant numbers of teachers just passing time between payslips that sprint out of the car park one minute after home-time, but perhaps there's a reason for the massive nationwide teacher shortage...

 

[Roylion]

I've had this conversation many times:

"Oh, you're a teacher? Must be awesome with all these holidays and only working 6 hours a day when you do work lol"

It's an interesting perception from some.

Under the current EBA, Victorian teachers in the government sector get four weeks of annual leave per year (20 working days) and another six weeks for school holidays (30 working days) plus any public holidays that fall on a weekday during school terms (usually Easter Monday, Labour Day, King's Birthday, Anzac Day, Cup Day and the Friday before the AFL Grand Final) That's a maximum of 56 working days off in a year. (50 working days if public holidays aren't counted.)

There are no rostered days off.

Teachers are paid for 38 hours a week, which includes 7 hours per day, plus two hours per week for meetings as determined by the Principal and one hour per week of other duties as directed by the Principal. Daily paid start and finish times are 8:30 am - 4:36 pm.

Anything outside these hours is unpaid work.

 

[bresker]

I used to be a CRT in Melbourne. I chose to work in a lot of the tougher schools in the inner North, partly because it was interesting and I liked the teachers there.

In December the work used to tail off, but there was always work in a massive 1200 kid school in the far outer NW on a new shitbox estate . Apparently what the developers do is say “Hey Dan Andrews, if you let us build houses here we’ll chuck in a school.” But instead of creating smaller hubs, they build one huge campus with a central building and numerous portables . There was no aircon in the central building so they installed these ugly portable units with big silver pipes coming out the windows .

It was always windswept and dusty . Freezing in winter and baking in summer.

Occasionally I was the drama teacher which was a depressing experience. The drama room was a double portable with nothing . Nothing on the walls, no equipment, grey carpet , no work left , a cupboard full of paper . I turned it into a music and improv class . The drama teacher took sick leave and never returned. The other teachers had to clean out her drawers.

A lot of the students were Iraqis and Indian with a few of what the Yanks call ‘poor white trash’ often moved on from other schools.

The principal never left his office . Never came into the staff room . Never went into a classroom. I only ever saw the back of his head. He sent his young AP out instead . (She was a very attractive looking AP, by the by.)

Once I was team teaching in a 5/6 classroom and it was complete chaos . Kids riding each other like horses , doing pile ons , chucking shit everywhere, noise at full volume. My co teacher was smiling and joking with the students like it was all a fun game . The AP came in and just silently watched with a look of despair on her face. She didn’t step in which made me think she was wasn’t on top of her job, but she later got the prin job at a top hipster state school in the inner North.

One Friday afternoon two grade 6 Iraqi kids got into a big fight. One chased the other into a classroom so the teacher locked the door and the aggressor banged on the windows . Then he sat down in furious anger .

The female teachers said to leave him alone, but I asked to give it a go. “ I can see you’re really angry ,” I said . “ I can guess what you’re going to do, you’re going to wait till 3:30 then chase him down the street and beat the crap out of him. Is it really worth it? You’ll get suspended or expelled and your mum and dad will be pissed off . Your friends will miss you.”

He calmed down. On the spot one of the leading teachers offered me a job there for next year. One of the other grade 6 teachers said “My friend owns a beauty salon in the CBD. I think I’ll work there next year.”

—————

At the same school , I was teaching PE when I said “Hey mate , could you calm down please .” He turned round with a look of venom and said “I’m not your feckin mate.” I respected that . He was smart but troubled . Don’t call your students mate . It’s daggy.

 

[Jack Richards]

I've had this conversation many times:

"Oh, you're a teacher? Must be awesome with all these holidays and only working 6 hours a day when you do work lol"
"I know right? Why aren't you one then? You complain about your job quite a lot"
"Nah, too much stress and dealing with kids and their parents would suck lol"
"..."

Of course there are significant numbers of teachers just passing time between payslips that sprint out of the car park one minute after home-time, but perhaps there's a reason for the massive nationwide teacher shortage...

Many just starting the trend of working contracted hours (30+8).

Happening in the US big time.

I arrive at 7:45am and leave at 4:30 everyday. Still end up with work to do at home like a whole seperate planner and resources for a student I have working in the pre-foundation levels of A-D in the vic curriculum. (He is in year 4) on top of planning and making resources for my other 25 students who range between year 1 - Year 5 ability levels.

His aide is part time so we never get to discuss activities and ideas which is infuriating.

 

[Jack Richards]

Anything outside these hours is unpaid work

Which regardless of however many extra hours of release time, you still get.

As we get 4hrs of time release already, the new agreement means SFA at my school:

2hrs of this is PLC planning for the week (we try and do a skeleton plan of what the week ahead will look like).

2hrs of own planning and gathering resources time to flesh out the planner.

I still end up having to do more in my own time doing professional reading which the school implies we have to do in our team as we dont get given time in meetings to do this.

They also expect all planners to be finalised and uploaded to the staff drive by Friday afternoon with all modifications for students working above or below the expected level.

 

[Jack Richards]

Has anyone moved schools at the end of term 1? How did you break it to the principal if so?

 

[Kwality]

CrowToon I am still yet to get it.

I have been given another year where I am and then will have to go back if I can't find ongoing.

Feedback I got when interviewing for the ongoing internal positions was that I didn't sound passionate enough and didnt explain the wholistic approach to professional learning and obsevations and how it improved my approach (as such based on that and application I wasnt top 4 out of the 6 that applied).

My prin won't be happy, but I will keep looking for ongoing throughout the year.

Tip for you on job interviews - why should you take the position being offered ? Be sure the interviewer isnt able to just tick the boxes, this is your future being discussed, not just the position being filled.

 

[Jack Richards]

Tip for you on job interviews - why should you take the position being offered ? Be sure the interviewer isnt able to just tick the boxes, this is your future being discussed, not just the position being filled.

Cheers.

The business manager at school my friend works at reached out to see if I was interested in applying for the ongoing position through her and asked me to give them a call. My mate mentioned to her that I could be interested and have 11 years experience in leadership, classroom teaching and STEM.

I called them and said I am interested but would prefer they didn't call my current school for references or feedback if interviewed. When asked, I explained that due to the current climate and shortage of teachers, it would make it difficult to work at moving forward if unsuccessful.

Not even a day later and my mate has said she spoke to the business manager again who said she was impressed by the phone conversation and spoke to the panel who are excited about the prospect of getting me onboard as an ongoing teacher.

Still torn as I don't like the idea of moving at the end of term 1 if I get the job as I love my class and school.. thoughts?

Pros:
Ongoing position
Bigger school
Work with 2 peope I know

Cons
Bit further to travel (19-30mins in traffic vs 10-25)
Leaving school at end of term 1 so would need pack up and do a whole new set up.

Thoughts Kwality

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Cheers.

The business manager at school my friend works at reached out to see if I was interested in applying for the ongoing position through her and asked me to give them a call. My mate mentioned to her that I could be interested and have 11 years experience in leadership, classroom teaching and STEM.

I called them and said I am interested but would prefer they didn't call my current school for references or feedback if interviewed. When asked, I explained that due to the current climate and shortage of teachers, it would make it difficult to work at moving forward if unsuccessful.

Not even a day later and my mate has said she spoke to the business manager again who said she was impressed by the phone conversation and spoke to the panel who are excited about the prospect of getting me onboard as an ongoing teacher.

Still torn as I don't like the idea of moving at the end of term 1 if I get the job as I love my class and school.. thoughts?

Pros:
Ongoing position
Bigger school
Work with 2 peope I know

Cons
Bit further to travel (19-30mins in traffic vs 10-25)
Leaving school at end of term 1 so would need pack up and do a whole new set up.

Thoughts Kwality

You love where you are - stay. You will have a great year and there will be other opportunities.

 

[Kwality]

Cheers.

The business manager at school my friend works at reached out to see if I was interested in applying for the ongoing position through her and asked me to give them a call. My mate mentioned to her that I could be interested and have 11 years experience in leadership, classroom teaching and STEM.

I called them and said I am interested but would prefer they didn't call my current school for references or feedback if interviewed. When asked, I explained that due to the current climate and shortage of teachers, it would make it difficult to work at moving forward if unsuccessful.

Not even a day later and my mate has said she spoke to the business manager again who said she was impressed by the phone conversation and spoke to the panel who are excited about the prospect of getting me onboard as an ongoing teacher.

Still torn as I don't like the idea of moving at the end of term 1 if I get the job as I love my class and school.. thoughts?

Pros:
Ongoing position
Bigger school
Work with 2 peope I know

Cons
Bit further to travel (19-30mins in traffic vs 10-25)
Leaving school at end of term 1 so would need pack up and do a whole new set up.

Put yourself first, where do you want to be in 5 years, where were you 5 years ago ?

 

[Jack Richards]

You love where you are - stay. You will have a great year and there will be other opportunities.

Yea it's not that easy tbh. I need ongoing. I tried at end of last year and got nothing. No certainty I will get it at years end as there are no one leaving that we know of (some maternity). My base school is not where I want to be and could ask me back.

Kwality 5 years ago I was at a big primary school and in a happy place with ongoing position and job security in mainstream.

Took a punt at taking a LS position at a special school and don't want to be back there at years end.

 

[wadistance]

Sounds like the conditions in australia aren't that good at the moment.

3 years into my primary school job in Germany, and I've learnt to be very strong on what I will and won't do.

If I can't get my work finished within 40 hours of a week (including class time, prep time and a bit of work at home), then it stays unfinished. If they're not happy with that, then they need (and have done since I've told them) to reduce my substituting and playground hours. I have also encouraged my colleagues to do the same. It has actually resulted in one extra staff member being hired, people not working overtime, and a much happier staff room.

If you can get everyone to walk to the same beat, surely it is possible in Australia to work to your capacity - not past it.

 

[Jack Richards]

If you can get everyone to walk to the same beat, surely it is possible in Australia to work to your capacity - not past it.

Agree wholeheartedly. But sadly the department expectations and school expectations don't align.

This weekend I reckon I did 9hrs of work (mostly making reusable resources).

 

[wadistance]

Agree wholeheartedly. But sadly the department expectations and school expectations don't align.

This weekend I reckon I did 9hrs of work (mostly making reusable resources).

Man, thats far too much. Sorry to hear that.

We have a new Head of School this year. First thing he did was make us as a team update our unit plans/schemes of work, so that every unit across every subject had linked resources, time plans, assessment banks and the like. It's been a fair bit of work to pull it all together, but as of next year, basically nobody has any planning work to do. Such a difference to the schools I worked at in Australia, where everyones unit plans were closely guarded secrets, and new teachers had to walk over coals in the first few years.

 

[Kwality]

Yea it's not that easy tbh. I need ongoing. I tried at end of last year and got nothing. No certainty I will get it at years end as there are no one leaving that we know of (some maternity). My base school is not where I want to be and could ask me back.

Kwality 5 years ago I was at a big primary school and in a happy place with ongoing position and job security in mainstream.

Took a punt at taking a LS position at a special school and don't want to be back there at years end.

If at first you dont succeed ... good luck is needed if getting in the (far) queue & hoping is the plan for your future.

 

[CrowToon]

My school is currently dealing with an influx of parents attempting to get uniform exemptions for their kids on mental health grounds as a certain colour or fabric will raise the kid's anxiety levels.

They are told to get medical documentation in support of their assertions and the worst part? They get it.

Health professionals are no longer the gatekeepers for sanity they once were.

Also wanting to allow their student down the street to buy food as the wait at the canteen may lead to 'hunger stress'. It sure isn't about teaching anymore.

We are allowing parents to set their kid up for failure in the real world. A train wreck you can see coming, but in absolute slo-mo.

 

[Kwality]

My school is currently dealing with an influx of parents attempting to get uniform exemptions for their kids on mental health grounds as a certain colour or fabric will raise the kid's anxiety levels.

They are told to get medical documentation in support of their assertions and the worst part? They get it.

Health professionals are no longer the gatekeepers for sanity they once were.

Also wanting to allow their student down the street to buy food as the wait at the canteen may lead to 'hunger stress'. It sure isn't about teaching anymore.

We are allowing parents to set their kid up for failure in the real world. A train wreck you can see coming, but in absolute slo-mo.

Dr Howlong has been active in the industry sector for decades.