Time to re-think the secondary markets

[Bjo187]

West of Sydney metro area, that's correct. The 13 council areas that make up what is considered GWS, then no.

Where are you getting that info from? Blacktown I thought had the highest indigenous population.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Where are you getting that info from? Blacktown I thought had the highest indigenous population.

It might be the highest of an individual council area, but look Australia wide.

Census of Population and Housing - Counts of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians, 2021

2021, 2016 and 2011 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Census counts and age distributions for selected geographies and national counts to 1971.

www.abs.gov.au

 

[Walshawk]

Where are you getting that info from? Blacktown I thought had the highest indigenous population.

An indigenous draftee (or any other draftee) is unlikely to ever go anywhere near Blacktown.

 

[Bjo187]

An indigenous draftee (or any other draftee) is unlikely to ever go anywhere near Blacktown.

To the giants? Their academy is in Blacktown and their vfl side play there regularly.

 

[Sphynx]

Until the GC become a powerhouse they are going to keep the Darwin zone. Just because they got 3 first rounders and a 2nd rounder out of their GC zone last draft dosen't mean they have solved their problems.

Everyone wants less travel, but the GC are happy with travelling to Darwin, because everyone else they play there has to do more travelling than them.

North have failed everywhere else they have gone to as a 2nd market, so why take it off GC and give it to them?

Well this aged well inside of a few hours.

North to get NT and Darwin as new NGA zone with imminent loss of Tasmanian zone.

 

[fargothegreat]

Well this aged well inside of a few hours.

North to get NT and Darwin as new NGA zone with imminent loss of Tasmanian zone.

This makes a lot of sense. NT can't support their own team, so why not have North play games up there and make it their second home? 'North' can have a different meaning to Territorians while allowing the club to maintain a presence at Arden St.

 

[Walshawk]

To the giants? Their academy is in Blacktown and their vfl side play there regularly.

I was replying to a post saying that indigenous players would be more comfortable at GWS due to the large indigenous populations out that way. I was stating that AFL draftees on big dollars are unlikely to be socialising anywhere near Blacktown which is very low socio economic area.

 

[Walshawk]

Well this aged well inside of a few hours.

North to get NT and Darwin as new NGA zone with imminent loss of Tasmanian zone.

Looks like I was on the money here.

I reckon North will take over Melbourne’s Alice Springs match and GC’s two (plus maybe one more) in Darwin from 2026. With works being done at Launceston in 2026/27, Hawks to split their four games between York Park and Bellrieve in 26/27.
Tas govt wants Nth out and Hawks to stay until the Devils are ready.

The AFL own GC they will do what the AFL wants. All games on GC will be good for them as they will be a very strong team the second half of this decade.

This will be good for all three clubs. Maybe the Hawks will hang around in Tas hosting the Devils in Launceston and another home game in Hobart from 2028. Much better than Cairns.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Looks like I was on the money here.

I reckon North will take over Melbourne’s Alice Springs match and GC’s two (plus maybe one more) in Darwin from 2026. With works being done at Launceston in 2026/27, Hawks to split their four games between York Park and Bellrieve in 26/27.
Tas govt wants Nth out and Hawks to stay until the Devils are ready.

The AFL own GC they will do what the AFL wants. All games on GC will be good for them as they will be a very strong team the second half of this decade.

This will be good for all three clubs. Maybe the Hawks will hang around in Tas hosting the Devils in Launceston and another home game in Hobart from 2028. Much better than Cairns.

I believe the overwhelming majority of Tasmanians will not want the Hawks ‘hanging around’ anywhere near Tas from 2028 onwards. The gravy train has nearly reached its last stop.

I’ll concede that the Hawks have been better for Tassie than North, although they’ll lose all grace from the locals if they try and stay on for too long, particularly if they expect the financial support to continue.

The narrative has changed significantly over the last few years and most footy fans I know want both interstate clubs out. Now it’s time to invest in our own footy club and the community pathways that will underpin it.

 

[Teen Wolf]

A report about "one of several scenarios" considered by the AFL regarding NGAs... And somehow that means "the AFL has decided who will sell games 3 years from now, and to where"? Preposterous leaps being made ITT.

A more reasonable assertion is the North Melbourne Football Club (unlike current offenders Essendon, Gold Coast, Hawthorn, Melbourne and Sydney) will not broker a "secondary market" home game deal for their senior men's team without a proportionate deal for their senior women's team, and vice-versa.

Meanwhile the AFL and NT government are in talks about Darwin becoming the host of AFLW's own Gather Round, which suggests (but by no means guarantees) a different direction.

 

[Coolangatta]

I believe the overwhelming majority of Tasmanians will not want the Hawks ‘hanging around’ anywhere near Tas from 2028 onwards. The gravy train has nearly reached its last stop.

I’ll concede that the Hawks have been better for Tassie than North, although they’ll lose all grace from the locals if they try and stay on for too long, particularly if they expect the financial support to continue.

The narrative has changed significantly over the last few years and most footy fans I know want both interstate clubs out. Now it’s time to invest in our own footy club and the community pathways that will underpin it.

Yeah it’d be like the Giants trying to play 3 games a year in Canberra after Canberra get their own team. Who wants that shit? Go sell games to markets that can’t support their own team but want live footy.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Yeah it’d be like the Giants trying to play 3 games a year in Canberra after Canberra get their own team. Who wants that shit? Go sell games to markets that can’t support their own team but want live footy.

Exactly. Our time, energy and cash should be allocated towards making our own footy landscape stronger, instead of continuing to prioritise the interests of a wealthy, self-serving club from another state.

The argument about getting more content in Tassie venues doesn’t fly with me either. With 19 clubs, we’ll need 24 rounds anyway, so Tassie would be much better off allocating funds to try and secure a second gather round later in the season. That would get more + better content in our stadiums as well as a greater return on investment than flogging a dead horse with Hawks games.

 

[fargothegreat]

I believe the overwhelming majority of Tasmanians will not want the Hawks ‘hanging around’ anywhere near Tas from 2028 onwards. The gravy train has nearly reached its last stop.

I’ll concede that the Hawks have been better for Tassie than North, although they’ll lose all grace from the locals if they try and stay on for too long, particularly if they expect the financial support to continue.

The narrative has changed significantly over the last few years and most footy fans I know want both interstate clubs out. Now it’s time to invest in our own footy club and the community pathways that will underpin it.

I say let the Hawks play an extra home in Tassie provided its against Tassie. Helps to balance out the fixture, as all the other teams get at least 12 games in their home state.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

I say let the Hawks play an extra home in Tassie provided its against Tassie. Helps to balance out the fixture, as all the other teams get at least 12 games in their home state.

So then the split of games is?

Mac Point - 8 Devils games
UTAS - 3 Devils and 1 Hawks games

 

[fargothegreat]

So then the split of games is?

Mac Point - 8 Devils games
UTAS - 3 Devils and 1 Hawks games

That'd be my guess.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Well this aged well inside of a few hours.

North to get NT and Darwin as new NGA zone with imminent loss of Tasmanian zone.

So its locked in stone by the AFL Commission? or just another AFL executive thought bubble about competitive balance?

 

[errant bounce]

Injecting tourism dollars into a secondary market until it gets its own team, in the meantime benefitting from increased sponsorship and membership revenue over a 15-year period... yeah what a failure. Nothing like the great three-year China success!

Speaking of which, if Gold Coast want to play all home games at Carrara while keeping a presence in NT, they can just do the weaselly Port Adelaide thing and transfer the Darwin games to other parties while requesting to play as the away team.

Regardless, nobody's taking anything off anybody. Don't be so dramatic.

...didn't the Western Bulldogs pinch Ballarat off of North Melbourne?

Genuinely reckon the Riverina is the way to go for both the Kangaroos and the AFL.

Sways the locals even more toward Aussie Rules than league and it's a captive AFL market while being a lot less accessible to Melbourne than Ballarat is to Marvel.

Could also develop a little bit of a rivalry with the Giants there.

 

[Teen Wolf]

...didn't the Western Bulldogs pinch Ballarat off of North Melbourne?

Genuinely reckon the Riverina is the way to go for both the Kangaroos and the AFL.

Sways the locals even more toward Aussie Rules than league and it's a captive AFL market while being a lot less accessible to Melbourne than Ballarat is to Marvel.

Could also develop a little bit of a rivalry with the Giants there.

Nobody is stopping North Melbourne from playing a couple home games in Ballarat, or Albury for that matter.

But the assumption baked into this thread (that clubs are entitled to just pick a good-in-theory regional venue and assume government is always going to pay millions for it) doesn't mesh with reality.

 

[kranger]

With Cricket ACT pushing to get a Canberra BBL team, it would likely lead to Sydney Thunder no longer playing games in Canberra.



It might lead to Sydney Thunder playing games in Newcastle, at a stadium that Cricket NSW is pushing for called ‘Hunter Park’.

https://assets.website-files.com/63b2747a3b0afb673b46f533/63b2efbd51c90a3ca066628b_Cricket%20NSW%20Plan-compressed.pdf

Cricket NSW calls for 15,000-seat Newcastle stadium

The governing body of cricket in NSW has identified Newcastle as an infrastructure priority and wants to see a new 15,000-seat oval stadium built in the city, while it also says a SCG Masterplan is needed.

www.austadiums.com

If ‘Hunter Park’ does get built, it would be wise of the local council or Venues NSW to try and get more content there, to make the facility more economically viable.

A Melbourne AFL team could sell two homes games a season there, with the opposition teams being Swans and Giants. Drawing supporters from nearby Sydney to town as tourists, but also growing support for the two NSW’s teams.

 

[kranger]

I wonder if there is any scope/interest for games to be sold to Auckland (NZ north island) and Christchurch (NZ South Island).

The two largest metropolitan areas in Oceania (on our side of the International Dateline), that don’t have an AFL team, or even host any games.

List of metropolitan areas in Oceania by population - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Perhaps with Tasmania getting a team, it opens up two games being sold to each city.

A big issue will be finding a suitable playing venue. Being a cricket nation, atleast there should be ovals. Could just put up temp stands like they do in Mt Barker for Gather Round.

Another issue is if they could draw a decent attendance. But with Auckland being 7 times larger than Hobart and 20 times larger than Launceston, surely they can get a few. Christchurch is larger than Townsville and Cairns which have hosted games previously.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Cricket NSW calls for 15,000-seat Newcastle stadium

The governing body of cricket in NSW has identified Newcastle as an infrastructure priority and wants to see a new 15,000-seat oval stadium built in the city, while it also says a SCG Masterplan is needed.

www.austadiums.com

Interesting proposal. I'm unsure if it's the best location for a stadium, as it will always be in the shadow of the adjacent rugby league stadium, but I guess it works in Sydney. I wonder if there'd ever be a consideration of a stadium at Hawkins Oval/Passmore Oval, close to the CBD and the rail line. Newcastle No. 1 Sportsground is too cramped for a proper stadium, you'd get the same accessibility issues that the Gabba has and Subiaco used to have.

I wonder if there would be any scope for games to be sold to Auckland (NZ north island) and Christchurch (NZ South Island).

Perhaps with Tasmania getting a team, it opens up two games being sold to each.

I think there's an essential problem with the game expanding internationally - if it continues to be called Australian rules football or AFL, it'll be very hard for it to gain acceptance, because the name implies the game can't belong to anyone else except Australians. I can't think of any other sport with a nationality or geographic area in its name that makes serious inroads internationally. American football might sell tickets when they play games overseas, but has very little overseas participation. European handball might be in the Olympics but it will never attract much interest outside of that.

If we're serious about international expansion, the game needs rebranding, to "footy" or something similar. While that term might be used informally to refer to other sports in other countries, it isn't a dominant term anywhere. And I get that it doesn't sound very sophisticated, but if the SAAFL can change its name to the "Adelaide Footy League", then footy is a good enough term for marketing elsewhere too.

 

[Bjo187]

Interesting proposal. I'm unsure if it's the best location for a stadium, as it will always be in the shadow of the adjacent rugby league stadium, but I guess it works in Sydney. I wonder if there'd ever be a consideration of a stadium at Hawkins Oval/Passmore Oval, close to the CBD and the rail line. Newcastle No. 1 Sportsground is too cramped for a proper stadium, you'd get the same accessibility issues that the Gabba has and Subiaco used to have.


I think there's an essential problem with the game expanding internationally - if it continues to be called Australian rules football or AFL, it'll be very hard for it to gain acceptance, because the name implies the game can't belong to anyone else except Australians. I can't think of any other sport with a nationality or geographic area in its name that makes serious inroads internationally. American football might sell tickets when they play games overseas, but has very little overseas participation. European handball might be in the Olympics but it will never attract much interest outside of that.

If we're serious about international expansion, the game needs rebranding, to "footy" or something similar. While that term might be used informally to refer to other sports in other countries, it isn't a dominant term anywhere. And I get that it doesn't sound very sophisticated, but if the SAAFL can change its name to the "Adelaide Footy League", then footy is a good enough term for marketing elsewhere too.

I agree they could come up with a good name. When the vfl and nswrl were going to merge back in the early 1940s I think it was, it was going to go under the name universal football and be taken to England as well.

* edit: I just heard an interesting term 'air football' regarding soccer and a team playing long balls, the ball in Australian football spends more time in the air than any other sport. I think a name for the sport needs to be descriptive.

 

[WesternSydneyHawk]

Interesting proposal. I'm unsure if it's the best location for a stadium, as it will always be in the shadow of the adjacent rugby league stadium, but I guess it works in Sydney. I wonder if there'd ever be a consideration of a stadium at Hawkins Oval/Passmore Oval, close to the CBD and the rail line. Newcastle No. 1 Sportsground is too cramped for a proper stadium, you'd get the same accessibility issues that the Gabba has and Subiaco used to have.

McDonald Jones Stadium is close enough to Broadmeadow station to be walkable (at least for a reasonably fit, able-bodied person).

That gets you train connections to the Central Coast/Gosford and Sydney. (The train runs roughly every half hour, so reasonably frequently.)

One of the proposals for extending the light rail has been to take it west past the Newcastle Entertainment Centre or Broadmeadow Station, to McDonald Jones, and then on through New Lambton (and the monstrosity that is Wests League Club) either to John Hunter Hospital or the University.

A cricket/AFL stadium there would benefit from both the trains, and potentially the light rail in the future.

I think there's an essential problem with the game expanding internationally - if it continues to be called Australian rules football or AFL, it'll be very hard for it to gain acceptance, because the name implies the game can't belong to anyone else except Australians. I can't think of any other sport with a nationality or geographic area in its name that makes serious inroads internationally.

I think "AFL football" internationally is fine.

And maybe not in sport, but being associated with a particular country or region hasn't stopped French fries, of Kentucky fried chicken, or Italian pizza, or Hollywood blockbusters, or French fashion, or 1000 other examples you can think of.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

* edit: I just heard an interesting term 'air football' regarding soccer and a team playing long balls, the ball in Australian football spends more time in the air than any other sport. I think a name for the sport needs to be descriptive.

That'll work. AFL can also stand for Air Football League.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

McDonald Jones Stadium is close enough to Broadmeadow station to be walkable (at least for a reasonably fit, able-bodied person).

For thousands of people? I've done the similar length walk in Brisbane from Lang Park to Roma Street station with thousands of others after a game, and let me tell you, it isn't ideal. A stadium location should be as convenient as possible when moving lots of people. Aside from those who aren't able-bodied or fit, it's also probably not great for anyone taking children to games.

One of the proposals for extending the light rail has been to take it west past the Newcastle Entertainment Centre or Broadmeadow Station, to McDonald Jones, and then on through New Lambton (and the monstrosity that is Wests League Club) either to John Hunter Hospital or the University.

Yes, a proposal. I'll be impressed when it's actually built. Until then it's inconvenient. The precinct also has just one bar in walking distance for before and after games, and few restaurants, which doesn't help the matchday experience.

The rugby league stadium was opened the same year as Waverley Park. And like Waverley Park, it was planned in the age where everyone drove to everything, and rail lines and tram systems were being shut down due to collapsing demand. In those days it didn't matter if anything was walking distance from anything else. But that's not the world we live in today. We've realised the limits of people driving everywhere, and now a good match day experience is based on convenient public transport and having food and drink options within walking distance of the stadium.

Nowhere is this sort of inconvenience seen better than in the two newest teams. Carrara is in the middle of nowhere and has no light rail connection, and the Showground is in a somewhat isolated sports park, only serviced by a rail shuttle loop, that lacks any atmosphere outside of the Easter Show or a big rugby league event. It's no wonder they've both struggled for attendance. And Sydney is trying very hard to link up the Olympic Park with the rest of the transport system, announcing both a metro line and light rail line there. I'm yet to see a similar announcement in Newcastle for the rugby league stadium.

So if the entire city was available for a stadium, why pick an area based around driving, with no light rail line yet and little to no food and drink options? They're better off picking something closer to the CBD and/or existing light rail, if there's a suitable place.

I think "AFL football" internationally is fine.

Okay. I don't.

And maybe not in sport, but being associated with a particular country or region hasn't stopped French fries, of Kentucky fried chicken, or Italian pizza, or Hollywood blockbusters, or French fashion, or 1000 other examples you can think of.

As you said, they're not sports. People are much more parochial about their sports. Until you give an example of a sport fitting the criteria, you're comparing apples to oranges.