Toast TLR calls for vote on guernsey - update: Members vote for Premiership/Fitzroy Lion - it's back baby!

[Jorgo]

Am loving the passion being displayed on all sides here. It shows that people care and that the club should ask us our opinions.

I hope everyone is taking advantage of the momentum and is signing up and writing to the club. I'd hate to think all this passion isn't getting heard by the people that matter. That's what this is all about!

 

[whatboutbob]

Yep, but the problem with that as I see it is that the Board must first make the decision that the Jumper might need to be changed. So if they are considering ever changing the Jumper, then they'll consult. But what if they don't ever make the decision to consider changing the Jumper?

If so, then the statement in that member's charter holds little value.

Yes, unfortunately that particular barn door was closed once the horses had bolted.

 

[Angus72]

Do we have any high profile supporters that we could contact to ask them to help get this In the media a lot more all you do hear on the media at the moment is how good did the guernsey nothing about all these petitions personal letters and emails that the club seem to ignore.

 

[Jorgo]

nothing about all these petitions personal letters and emails that the club seem to ignore.

The people behind this site have told me, when I asked why we're encouraging people to do something as archaic and old school as write letters!!, that the club is duty bound by governance rules to process physical letters appropriately. Email/tweets etc they can safely ignore, and have repeatedly in the past.

Plenty of people in the media have spoken on TV, written in newspaper articles and tweeted on Twitter about it as well. So we're not alone!

 

[Angus72]

The people behind this site have told me, when I asked why we're encouraging people to do something as archaic and old school as write letters!!, that the club is duty bound by governance rules to process physical letters appropriately. Email/tweets etc they can safely ignore, and have repeatedly in the past.

Plenty of people in the media have spoken on TV, written in newspaper articles and tweeted on Twitter about it as well. So we're not alone!

But how many people have received a reply from the club to an email or written letter

 

[Jorgo]

But how many people have received a reply from the club to an email or written letter

I have received a response to an email from the club before on this issue which was basically "thanks for the feedback".

So they do get read.

My understanding is this website has only been calling for people to write letters for less than a day so they won't have even received them yet.

Whether you get a reply or not though the club will have read the letter, that's the point. Make yourself heard!

 

[spotthedog1]

The ultimate stage might end up being trying to get someone voted on to the board on this issue

I'm not a fan of that. I think that this usually leads to voting in non-experts who focus on one issue at the exclusion of all others with disasterous results. If you want to see how well this works, look at the Greens in federal parliament - they focus so heavily on the environment and same-sex marriage, that (regardless of anyone's thoughts on those issues) it's hard to deny that they have screwed up the runnings of parliament over the last few years. and when they actually try to talk about, for instance, the budget, they clearly have no idea what they are talking about...

I would suggest that having a lions board member focused on jerseys over strategic vision would have roughly the same effect as the greens... they'd hijack the board, make everyone's life a living hell, but at the end of the day, make very little actual difference.

However, blindingly stupid decision making and strategy - if that occurs - then I am all for the Board and CEO to be held hostage by Members.

Let's not confuse 'Corporate Governance' with 'Accountability'. I've not been shown once anywhere any proof that the change of Jumper has been a genuine positive result for the club - no evidence in merch sales, sponsorship, memberships - nothing. Not once has the Board or CEO said "well here are the positive results from that contraversial strategy change we've made". Not an iota or scrap of evidence. Nothing.

"We made this decision for the club in terms of changing the Jumper, and it has delivered X....."

Nothing. From the Board/CEO of the past, or the present.

No offence intended Adey, but i have a few issues with this post. Along with my response to dlanod up there, and how that impacts holding the board hostage, I'd suggest that it's wrong to call what our board has done "blindingly stupid decision making and strategy". I'd agree with you saying that they haven't fulfilled their accountability requirements. But that doesn't mean that anything they've done has been blindingly stupid.

In terms of proof - I don't know what you really want. How do you suggest that the board obtain accurate projections on sales/membership/some-nonexistant-measure-of-culture that would show what the club would look like now with the paddlepop vs with the old lion? How would you suggest that the club prove profit or improvement compared to a fictional non-reality? Non-financial aspects are incredibly hard to provide projections on. Heck - it's hard to provide reliable financial projections, and they can at least be calculated.

If you want to see the marketing proposal that was presented to the board at the instigation of the paddlepop, ask the club. They'll probably say no, but ask anyway. If I were at the Lions, I would prefer people asked for more information to make informed arguments than blazed away with calling the club "blindingly stupid" in absence of facts. If you would like my opinion on what the club was thinking at the time, it is as follows (this is not to say it is the clubs opinion. I have limited marketing experience (I work in business consultancy) - this is just what I would expect):

- Existing logo has significant pro of attachment to existing customer base - particularly VIC based
- Existing logo has trouble attracting new fans, particularly younger fans. Proposed logo likely more attractive to potential younger fans (read: potential long-term fans)
- Existing logo has limited marketability and variability. Proposed logo has various options (eg. full lion, lion head, even ability to animate in future if desired).
- Existing logo would be preferred by majority of existing members (note: this is common among sports teams, and usually there is hesitance on changing a logo until it is changed anyway, and fans see the club winning under the new logo, and then attach themselves to that logo. Note 2: the integration clearly didn't take like the club was hoping, but usually, existing fans are easy to keep, it's new fans that are hard to attract)
- It is best to bring in new logo immediately before anticipated success, as fans link success with logo. Acquisition of Fev, Staker, Buchanan, XClarke, Raines intended to bring short-term success - if a change is to be made over the next 5 years, now would be the time.
- New logos/jerseys also act to date existing jerseys. Immediate income anticipated from sale of new jerseys, new logo'd merchandise.

I'd say that those would be the sort of factors (I'm sure there are many more, but I have work to do) taken into account on analysis of a proposed change to logo. That the logo sucked is probably outside the expertise of the non-marketing-based members of the board, and even then, the marketing-based members may have liked it. Even if it was shown to members, and members did come back mostly negative, it still wouldn't have an impact on the final decision, as the club would assume loyalty from the vast majority of the existing fanbase (and try to repay that loyalty with onfield success), and potential upside in a new fanbase, new sales, improved marketability, etc.

So then Adey, it comes down to - would you rather the club didn't ask you, or didn't listen when you said you didn't like it. From a business point of view, I would have expected a no from fans, but really, this wouldn't change my final decision, as in 99% of cases, logo changes aren't favoured until winning comes along. The club didn't expect the Fev experiment to fail, and it's hard to tell between "we don't like this because it sucks" and "we don't like this because we aren't used to it".

 

[spotthedog1]

Sorry if my responses seem to come from a business background, not a club/organisation background... i'm just using my expertise, and trying to apply it to a similar (but still different) situation. I know it reads a bit like "fans are fickle" and "look at fans as customers more than members", but in my line of work, I train businesses to expect that the average customer is relatively fickle and is only valuable in what it gives to the business... again, a limitation of my experience. I certainly don't intend that anyone here (or any other lions member) should feel like one of the club's cattle.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Do we have any high profile supporters that we could contact to ask them to help get this In the media a lot more all you do hear on the media at the moment is how good did the guernsey nothing about all these petitions personal letters and emails that the club seem to ignore.

Rudd the Dud

 

[adey115]

No sweat S.T.D.1 - no offence at any of this.

To me, the "blindingly stupid decision making and strategy" started with the lack of consultancy on this issue. The "AFL is business" line that gets run out is true to an extent, but the Club's client base is its members and supporters - without them it does not exist.

If I like a shop's product, but don't like the uniform that the staff have been forced to wear, then I'm likely to have a quiet s****** to myself, but I'm still going to buy the product. Clearly an AFL Club is different to that - our "staff uniform" means something to the BBFFC Pty Ltd's client base.

Some have s******ed and continued to buy the product, some have voiced their anger and continued to buy the product - I've personally voiced my anger and stopped buying the product. Are there others? Absolutely. Its more than a business. Its more than a business decision. That has been under-estimated by the Board.

Thinking that the issue of changing the Jumper wasn't something to consult the members and supporters on was an enormous "strategy" error in my eyes. I'd go as far as saying "blindingly stupid" - if only in hindsight when one looks at the way Fremantle, Port Adelaide, and the Western Bulldogs have gone about the process of discussing their staff uniform change. What a successful process of mass inclusion - of your client base if we look at it from a business perspective.

In terms of proof - you've mentioned specifics. I haven't even seen generalities.... no one has said "we've seen significant growth in merchandise sales beyond what we would have expected with selling the old guernsey." Clearly membership hasn't gone up, though I don't solely blame the jumper issue for that (but it is a factor). Generalities would be a start. There is an absence of facts - because there is an absence of any positive reinforcement from the club on the issue.

I like what you've outlined in terms of what the Club was likely to have been thinking at the time. I stress the words, 'at the time' when next I say...

But....
One of the fundamental management failure traits I see in business, both from individual decisions, and by management teams, is a failure to admit that a particular strategy or action was in hindsight wrong. At the risk of sounding "old", very few people or management groups are ever willing to say now - that "we thought we had a sound strategy, in the end we weren't right, so we're going to rectify that now by change".

No one is prepared to say that we screwed it up, so we're going to return to what we had right, and work on improvement elsewhere. That is a major failing in business. And in my mind, a current "blindingly stupid" one from the Lions Board and Management. We're continuing to run with a strategy that doesn't seem to be delivering - one would think we'd be seeming successful merch results spruiked by the club, or a spike in memberships, or some indicator from the club if it was the case.

In terms of your last paragraph - where we greatly disagree has been proven by the actions of Freo, the Doggies and the Power. Those Clubs DID ask. They provided options - including status quo, radical change, moderate change, fan input as to designs etc etc. You say "would you rather the club didn't ask you, or didn't listen when you said you didn't like it."

I prefer neither - both are wrong outcomes, and both are avoidable outcomes. The Doggies, Power and Freo showed that consultation on the issue works. They didn't please everyone (ie. no option received the 100% vote), but conversely and importantly, angst did NOT occur - point out to me where, if it did. There seemed to be an acceptance by those clubs "clients" that the consultation process delivered a result.

One thing I'd like to mention is that IF the Board and CEO wanted to change the Jumper in order to increase Merch sales, market an updated logo etc, then by not consulting they may well have missed out on a grand opportunity. Consulting may have delivered a members "thumbs up" on an updated design like the "Costa" design floated round these Boards - a modernisation of the existing, rather than a bastardisation (my words there). That would have potentially delivered the business outcomes you outlined above - and potentially the process of mass inclusion that Port, Freo and the Bulldogs delivered. I wonder if they considered that at the time? "Blindingly stupid" might be harsh, but we certainly didn't go about that process using a "best practice" approach.

There have been some significant management failings on this issue from day on. I am saddened that it continues across the "new" Board and CEO. I hope for the day that I can say it has changed. Because a Footy Club isn't just a business. It's personal!

 

[POBT]

Personally, I think I have a bigger issue with the fact that the club doesn't appear to know whether it got it right or wrong. And how would they? They never polled us in the first place and they certainly haven't asked now.

 

[MICKYCONLAN]

Word of mouth is the best advertising you can get. The best way to get new supporters/members is to look after the existing ones. Just ask Eddie.

 

[Mazza44]

Just wrote my letter to the club. As an AFL member with a Brisbane support package and 4 games to attend this year, I have no reason to continue having Brisbane as my supported club in my membership when it can easily be switched to a Hawthorn or Geelong to guarantee Grand Final tickets. I can still access the exact same Lions games, just they won't receive a cent. It's sad but in the end if the club isn't going to look after me as a member with lack of games in Melbourne and not listening to myself and many others on the jumper issue, then I have no obligation to put myself in a worse position for tickets to the Grand Final. In the end it's business and as much as I love the club they need to see that it is not all one way.

Over to you Brisbane.

 

[spotthedog1]

No sweat S.T.D.1 - no offence at any of this. (quote truncated for brevity)

Lol. I should've chosen my name more carefully. I realised after I chose it that some may think I'm a dogs supporter... never thought that the initials were STD. I can confirm I am not a dog, a dog's supporter, or have any STDs.

In terms of proof - any general evidence that they come out with to show increased sales, increased members - all could be incidental. We were also pushing for a potential premiership that year - higher sales and memberships could be explained by that, same as lower sales and memberships now would be related to a decline in form, not necessarily that some don't like the strip. The club would never come out and say "see, improved sales and memberships - we were right" as a generality... that is arrogant, and doesn't help the club. It's much better for the club to say "see, improved sales and memberships - fans recognise that the club is going somewhere". This is actively promoting the club. Still happens all the time, by every club. Have you seen that over the last few years by the Lions? There's your generality.

I actually like your analogy of sales uniforms changing at a shop. It's actually a pretty fair analogy, except that football clubs have more inbuilt loyalty than stores. But you are basically boycotting a business you frequent because of the sales uniforms. You're still a fan, so it's like you're going into the shop, wandering around, but refusing to buy because of the uniforms.

Not sure what happened with Port and WB... was the WB the changing of the name from Footscray? If so, that may contradict my next point (though no one wants to advertise that they're from Footscray).

With Freo, they had a member vote on theme song. The final result - they kept (almost) the same one. As an outside person, I preferred both of the newly designed songs over that one. But the dockers faithful kept a minor adaptation of the original. You know why? Fan's don't like change. Really, a lot of fan behaviour is similar to customer behaviour - it's highly predictable. You know what happened around that time though? They fired their coach and hired another. Were people happy? No, they were pissed. Are people happy now - yeah, pretty well. You know why? Freo are opening a premiership window. Freo fans were adamant that Harvs was the right person to go ahead, and mortified that the club fired their beloved coach. More so under the circumstances. They had short memories though - winning kinda erased that.

Pity the Fev play was a failure - would've been an interesting discussion if there were more of a winning tradition associated with this jumper.

If you're talking about the change in name for the dogs, 1. no one wants to be associated with Footscray. 2. They would've been required to consult members for a change in the name of the organisation. Has to be ratified by a special resolution.

If you're talking about something else though, i must've missed it.

RE: Port consultation - they have fans to consult? Would've been much easier - they could've just called their 5 members over a lunch break and asked their thoughts.

RE: Consultation could give a thumbs up - no it wouldn't. Anyone could see that no one would vote for the new logo - same reason Freo's theme song barely changed. Fans like what they know.

RE: The club backing down. Yes - it's good for a business to back down when they do something wrong. But in this case, it would far more hurt the Lions than help them. They would get a small boost in sales going back, but surely you can admit that, except to ex-Fitzroy and older Lions fans (most of whom are still fans), the old Lion is hard to do marketing with. To get new fans - ones who don't know the tradition of the old logo, or kids, who don't care about tradition, and like something more cartoonish - the paddlepop is probably easier to market with (or at least should've been, except that they made it badly).

As well as that, going back to the old lion would have the effect that they would never, ever, EVER be able to change the logo again. I know some would love that. But overall, changing the logo is a way to modernise the brand, and do all those things that I suggested as reasons the club would've changed to this logo. I really hope next year, we have a new logo. Get some collaboration from fans, ask their thoughts, but DON'T bring back the old lion. Change it, get some success (something we failed at with paddlepop), and hope that the new tradition in the new logo gets fans to love it.

 

[doddgey]

I have received a response to an email from the club before on this issue which was basically "thanks for the feedback".

So they do get read.

My understanding is this website has only been calling for people to write letters for less than a day so they won't have even received them yet.

Whether you get a reply or not though the club will have read the letter, that's the point. Make yourself heard!

You have done well Jorgo, I have never had a reply to the two emails I had sent. Today I mailed my letter outlining my feelings toward this issue.

 

[adey115]

Mate - so sorry.... I didn't even think when I typed S.T.D....!!!!

The Bulldogs - I was solely talking jumper - they changed the jumper from the white-red-white middle stripes with the Bulldog face, to the traditional guernsey of just the one white and one red stripe. With member consultation.

Freo - I wasn't talking about the song. I am recalling the jumper change. Interesting that the consultation covered both though. Mind you, have you considered that they didn't ending changing the song because members viewed it as now being "traditional" to the Club?

Port - now now, saying they have no members is being facetious. They provided jumper options and went with a design put forward by a six year old. Member consultation.

You say fans don't like change. Port's jumper change was quite extensive, when compared to their original. I personally think the fans don't like "stupid" change, rather than all change. The Port jumper change was quite radical from the original. But it was viewed as looking like a traditional guernsey, and with majority support. Well ours was a radical change - and no one asked us.... hmmm, what happened? Angst!

If fans don't like change, all and sundry - well why did those 3 clubs end up with changed guernseys with little or no angst? I'd suggest "consultation" is the answer.

When we talk about logo - let's seperate the story here. I haven't heard many people complaining overly about the use of the PP as a marketing and letterhead logo - the angst is purely about the jumper. Clubs have differentiated between the two before before. My angst is purely about the jumper - I can live with the PP elsewhere, but just not as the main item on the jumper. We can modernise and change our marketing logo as much as we like in the future - I feel I'm speaking for many people here - we don't really care about the marketing logo, BUT we care about the jumper. IF the old Lion is so hard to do marketing with then go for it - change the logo as much as we like. But the jumper is a different story.

Backing down on the jumper would do ZERO damage to the Brisbane Lions. Here's a positive spin - "we've listened to our fans and members, and we want to return to some of the older values of the Club from a decade ago when we had such success, so we're asking our members and fans...."

 

[BuntonRules]

adey115 that post deserves more than a like

 

[Skoob]

I don't agree with the marketing arguments ( that the paddlepop is more marketable and the true Lion not). I must admit though that nor am I a marketing person but I think it is more about how it is sold rather than what.
Plenty have already said they don't mind if the new lion stays as a logo and in this way it can be used for marketing. The current agreement means that both Lions are to be used (for now). With that in mind the traditional Lion can be used on our Guernsey and that other thing on hats and posters. We already have that ridiculous "mascot" so I have no issue using the paddlepops to sell stuff.

 

[lionshine]

This is the link to the jumper that I think should be our home game guernsey except with a gold lion: http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag95/kokoEssPort/brisbanehome_zpsec6970aa.png

This is the link to the guernsey that I think we should wear in Victoria: http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag95/kokoEssPort/brisbaneaway_zps8a5a0562.png

This is the link to the guernsey that I think we should wear in all away games against non-Victorian teams so in NSW, SA, WA, and against GC at Metricon: http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/ag95/kokoEssPort/brisbaneclash_zps38dd7dc9.png

 

[adey115]

adey115 that post deserves more than a like

Which one? They're all awesome aren't they?!?!

 

[Ceebee]

I am hoping that the people who only ever come on the Lions board to vent about the jumper,sign up and write a letter.

The people who are organising this, are giving everyone another chance to have their say.
Kudos for their effort.

Lets hope the ones that truly care,take the opportunity to do so.

 

[Viceregal]

Yep, but the problem with that as I see it is that the Board must first make the decision that the Jumper might need to be changed. So if they are considering ever changing the Jumper, then they'll consult. But what if they don't ever make the decision to consider changing the Jumper?

If so, then the statement in that member's charter holds little value.

I was kind of responding to Spot's comments about the board not having to take into account what we think on issues like the jumper and that in terms of going forward, assuming the need for change is accepted, that they have *already* agreed to consult and in fact are obliged to ....

 

[PertRoosOsborne]

Out of curiosity......how many active BF posters are listed as Lions supporters.......1500?

 

[Matt_BL]

Do we have any high profile supporters that we could contact to ask them to help get this In the media a lot more all you do hear on the media at the moment is how good did the guernsey nothing about all these petitions personal letters and emails that the club seem to ignore.

Could contact Mr K. Rudd himself I'm sure he would respond he's fairly active on social media.

 

[Matt_BL]

I'm not a fan of us wearing a different strip for Victoria. If our old jumper does come back that acknowledges the history of Fitzroy by itself, I think we look better when we wear our maroon strip with the white pants like we did in the Essendon game. Have a clash strip if required but the Red and Blue strip I don't think is needed.