Tobacco Tax - who does it really hurt?

[Maggie5]

I am surprised that there hasn't been a bigger increase of theft of cigarettes than just stealing till money from ATM's, 7elevens and gaming venues.
Easier to resell.

Surprised to learn my 18 year old niece and a number of her friends have taken up smoking. Buying packs of 50's.

 

[Puddy]

It happens alot in the health industry as well. A huge amount of nurses smoke for stress relief. How about making tobacco more affordable for workers and increasing it for white collar workers by increasing the tax for them

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

It happens alot in the health industry as well. A huge amount of nurses smoke for stress relief. How about making tobacco more affordable for workers and increasing it for white collar workers by increasing the tax for them

So you want to kill the working class? The IPA likes this.

 

[Puddy]

So you want to kill the working class? The IPA likes this.

No. I want the nicotine taken out of cigarettes so they are not addictive, so they can be used for stress relief for people with working jobs but so people dont get addicted to them

 

[Power Raid]

wow re the indigenous smoking rates: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/tobacco-kff

ABS National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Survey, 2014-15
On 28 April 2016, the ABS released the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Survey, 2014-15.4 The survey was conducted from September 2014 to June 2015 with a sample of 11,178 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people living in private dwellings across Australia. The report shows that in 2014-15:

• the proportion of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people aged 15 years and over who were daily smokers was 38.9% in 2014-15, down from 44.6% in 2008 and 48.6% in 2002;
• in 2002, 51% of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander males aged 15 years and over were daily smokers, the daily rate declined to 46% in 2008 and to 41% in 2014-15;
• in 2002, 47% of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander females aged 15 years and over were daily smokers, the daily rate declined to 43% in 2008 and to 36% in 2014-15;
• fewer young people are starting to smoke with a significant decrease in daily smoking rates of those aged 15-24, down to 31% in 2014-15 from 39% in 2008; and
• the data indicates that the majority of the change in daily smoking rates has occurred in non-remote areas with 47% of people aged 15 years and over in remote areas smoking daily in 2014-15 (down from 50% in 2002) compared with 37% in non-remote locations (down from 48% in 2002).

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

No. I want the nicotine taken out of cigarettes so they are not addictive, so they can be used for stress relief for people with working jobs but so people dont get addicted to them

But leave the carcinogens (including cyanide, benzene, formaldehyde, methanol, acetylene, ammonia, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide, vinyl chloride, ethylene oxide, arsenis, chromium, cadmium etc) in them to kill the poor, nice work dear 'friend of the worker'

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

wow re the indigenous smoking rates: http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/tobacco-kff

ABS National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Survey, 2014-15
On 28 April 2016, the ABS released the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Survey, 2014-15.4 The survey was conducted from September 2014 to June 2015 with a sample of 11,178 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people living in private dwellings across Australia. The report shows that in 2014-15:

• the proportion of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people aged 15 years and over who were daily smokers was 38.9% in 2014-15, down from 44.6% in 2008 and 48.6% in 2002;
• in 2002, 51% of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander males aged 15 years and over were daily smokers, the daily rate declined to 46% in 2008 and to 41% in 2014-15;
• in 2002, 47% of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander females aged 15 years and over were daily smokers, the daily rate declined to 43% in 2008 and to 36% in 2014-15;
• fewer young people are starting to smoke with a significant decrease in daily smoking rates of those aged 15-24, down to 31% in 2014-15 from 39% in 2008; and
• the data indicates that the majority of the change in daily smoking rates has occurred in non-remote areas with 47% of people aged 15 years and over in remote areas smoking daily in 2014-15 (down from 50% in 2002) compared with 37% in non-remote locations (down from 48% in 2002).

I think Puddy wants to see a revised version of poisoned flour

 

[Power Raid]

No. I want the nicotine taken out of cigarettes so they are not addictive, so they can be used for stress relief for people with working jobs but so people dont get addicted to them

"You ask me what we need to win this war. I answer tobacco as much as bullets."
-- General John Pershing
Commander of the American Expeditionary Forces, World War I

As soldiers would be shaking nervous wrecks after artillery bombardment and only a smoke could help settle them, bear arms and fend of the german charge over the trench.

 

[Power Raid]

I think Puddy wants to see a revised version of poisoned flour

On one hand I agree with him that people have the right to smoke and I'd extend that to taking drugs and eating what they want. I'm also an advocate of euthanasia, even euthanasia without controls (other than "are you sure, have you done your will and would you like selfie for facebook"). So would be a contradiction to say you have the right to die fast but not the right to die slow.

On the other people have an obligation to be responsible (and act reasonably) which is enshrined in many of our laws and a basic principle of living in a society. Especially if we have a medicare system, it is a bit rich to ask society to pay for obesity issues, lung cancer, alcohol liver damage etc when the cause was self inflicted and resources could be better allocated to responsible citizens.

I'm not against putting the price up to put it out of the reach of kids but by default it puts it out of the reach of poorer parts of our community who can least afford it. As puddy suggested many of these make poor decisions and would rather feed their habit than feed their kids.

As a result you have juvenile crime, especially in the aboriginal community. I have seen this first hand living in East Perth with the elders pissing it up under a tree peacefully whilst their kids are starving and need to steal and rob to eat.

Perhaps education, the requirement to swipe one's medicare card to buy and better restrictions on where you can smoke is a better way forward.

 

[Power Raid]

who smokes

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

On one hand I agree with him that people have the right to smoke and I'd extend that to taking drugs and eating what they want. I'm also an advocate of euthanasia, even euthanasia without controls (other than "are you sure, have you done your will and would you like selfie for facebook"). So would be a contradiction to say you have the right to die fast but not the right to die slow.

On the other people have an obligation to be responsible (and act reasonably) which is enshrined in many of our laws and a basic principle of living in a society. Especially if we have a medicare system, it is a bit rich to ask society to pay for obesity issues, lung cancer, alcohol liver damage etc when the cause was self inflicted and resources could be better allocated to responsible citizens.

I'm not against putting the price up to put it out of the reach of kids but by default it puts it out of the reach of poorer parts of our community who can least afford it. As puddy suggested many of these make poor decisions and would rather feed their habit than feed their kids.

As a result you have juvenile crime, especially in the aboriginal community. I have seen this first hand living in East Perth with the elders pissing it up under a tree peacefully whilst their kids are starving and need to steal and rob to eat.

Perhaps education, the requirement to swipe one's medicare card to buy and better restrictions on where you can smoke is a better way forward.

The problem with your argument re people should be free to smoke, take drugs etc is that the consequences can and do go beyond the individual, smoking related diseases are a massive drain on the health system as are drug overdoses.

Cigarettes are the only legally available product, that if used the way it is intended to be used, will almost certainly kill you.

The notion that having a cigarette calms you is rubbish, it is not the cigarette, it is taking five minutes out of the situation and regulating your breathing. The sooner they are banned the better.

I was thrilled when my eight year old asked me where people get cigarettes from, it dawned on me that he has never seen them behind a shop counter and has never been sucked in to advertising, designed to attract children to a deadly addictive product.

As far as I am concerned, I would like to see the age at which you can buy cigarettes increase ever year ie 18 this year, 19 in 2017, 20 in 2018 etc. It would be a win for society and a win for the most disadvantaged.

 

[Puddy]

The notion that having a cigarette calms you is rubbish, it is not the cigarette, it is taking five minutes out of the situation and regulating your breathing. The sooner they are banned the better.

Have you ever been a smoker?

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Have you ever been a smoker?

Yes, I used to smoke heavily, would light up the moment I woke up. I have not had one in almost 20 years.

 

[Power Raid]

The problem with your argument re people should be free to smoke, take drugs etc is that the consequences can and do go beyond the individual, smoking related diseases are a massive drain on the health system as are drug overdoses.

Cigarettes are the only legally available product, that if used the way it is intended to be used, will almost certainly kill you.

The notion that having a cigarette calms you is rubbish, it is not the cigarette, it is taking five minutes out of the situation and regulating your breathing. The sooner they are banned the better.

I was thrilled when my eight year old asked me where people get cigarettes from, it dawned on me that he has never seen them behind a shop counter and has never been sucked in to advertising, designed to attract children to a deadly addictive product.

As far as I am concerned, I would like to see the age at which you can buy cigarettes increase ever year ie 18 this year, 19 in 2017, 20 in 2018 etc. It would be a win for society and a win for the most disadvantaged.

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see everyone give up smoking.

They are often bludgers on their workmates and a burden on societies welfare systems (mostly health). That said, statistics show those that smoke would probably be a burden anyway (refer graph above - junkies, criminals, mental health and the poor).

So do we punish our weakest people in the community, including their kids? I don't advocate lowering the prices but puddy raises an interesting point of view.

 

[NSWCROW]

Matter of time until trucks get hijacked , warehouses raided......

 

[Power Raid]

Matter of time until trucks get hijacked , warehouses raided......

Beverly Hills cops

 

[Doc_]

People advocating higher tobacco taxes need to stop and think a minute. These type of campaigns wont stop with tobacco.
Next will be alcohol. It will be heavily taxed with ever increasing excise. It will come in plain packaging with pictures of diseased livers etc on them.
You'll go out to dinner and every bottle will have these lovely pics on them.
The exact same excuses will be used as they do with tobacco now.
Next in line will be fatty foods. Same deal.
Sugar is already copping it too with the tax on soft drinks set to rise.
The health Nazi's will not be able to be stopped. They will eventually get to the things you like even if you dont smoke, drink and eat healthy.

 

[GreyCrow]

People advocating higher tobacco taxes need to stop and think a minute. These type of campaigns wont stop with tobacco.
Next will be alcohol. It will be heavily taxed with ever increasing excise. It will come in plain packaging with pictures of diseased livers etc on them.
You'll go out to dinner and every bottle will have these lovely pics on them.
The exact same excuses will be used as they do with tobacco now.
Next in line will be fatty foods. Same deal.
Sugar is already copping it too with the tax on soft drinks set to rise.
The health Nazi's will not be able to be stopped. They will eventually get to the things you like even if you dont smoke, drink and eat healthy.

Understand the concerns surrounding this but I tend to want a Preventative Health model than one that is continually repairing the problems after they happen. The older I get the more I look to repair all the mistakes I made as a youngster. Bad liver , fat as a house no lung function etc etc. Instead of taking a handful of pills I have been given a dietitian and exercise pathway to work with, all at cost to the Government. So if a tax makes some people consider their smoking and health then I am for it.

 

[Long Live HFC]

No. I want the nicotine taken out of cigarettes so they are not addictive, so they can be used for stress relief for people with working jobs but so people dont get addicted to them

it's a myth that cigarettes are a stress-reliever. smoking has the exact opposite effect on the human body. cigarettes are a stimulant. the only stress they relieve is an addict's craving.

there are already genetically modified tobacco plants that produce less nicotine than normal.

 

[Power Raid]

I can't get over the number of people smoking in Melbourne. perhaps its just a density of population thing but the streets stink of people smoking. Smoking in roof top bars also seems acceptable

 

[iluvparis]

I can't get over the number of people smoking in Melbourne. perhaps its just a density of population thing but the streets stink of people smoking. Smoking in roof top bars also seems acceptable

Actually noticed this too last time I was down there - walking through a few laneway bars filled with smokers - had to ask my mate WTF it was all about,

 

[GreyCrow]

Must make the coffee taste better

 

[kwikfix]

I was reading some where (cant find at the moment) the next big tax push will be on sugar and they (tax man and an army of doctors, bureaucrats) will attack consumers in the same way as smokers have been attacked and taxed. Bring on the fat tax.

EDIT: As lucrative as climate change for some.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

Oh dear...

 

[Puddy]

You simply cant tax a problem away, when you have people scoffing at the idea of black market tobacco, its hard to take their views seriously. If our leaders are paid the average wage of 40k then these decisions wouldnt be made