Restricted Free Agent Tom De Koning

[Jeremias]

This thread might be going for a while. Please respect board rules and each other.

As a starting point, let's leave any references to 'culture' at the door.

Thread bans and infractions will be handed out as necessary.

Thanks.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Is that the Andrew Bassett of SEEK? The absolute hilarity of him finding St Kilda players jobs they don't need to turn up for.

You'll be found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute and someone from Adelaide's coaching group will get a suspension.

If it works for Geelong and others I'm sure we can find a way.

 

[stavro#4]

I don't think St Kilda's friends compare to Carlton's friends. One of Carlton's friends is the AFL too.

Not sure what point you’re making here.

Your argument was that Carlton can pay outside of the cap to cover the difference. I noted that Ross Lyon has spoken about doing the very same thing - within the rules.

Money is the same. Wherever it comes in this Australia.

We are going to have an offer on the table that will result in Carlton needing to find cap room to get close enough to retain TDK.

That’s very likely the outcome from here.

 

[JHF1870]

Not sure what point you’re making here.

Your argument was that Carlton can pay outside of the cap to cover the difference. I noted that Ross Lyon has spoken about doing the very same thing - within the rules.

Money is the same. Wherever it comes from in this Australia.

We are going to have an offer on the table that will result in Carlton needing to find cap room to get close enough to retain TDK.

That’s very likely the outcome from here.

Comes down to a lot of factors. I think Ross offers greater stability. I'd be moving to Saints.

 

[Elixuh]

Really, don't we have some of the more high profile supporters, especially ones with money?

Mark Dreyfus, Andrew Bassett, Lindsay Fox, Eric Banner etc.

Its the sponsorship thing we don't really have. No Cotton on or Visy etc..

It would have been a lot better for St Kilda if Eric Banner had continued on as the Hulk in the Avenger films. While they’re awful films, his star would be brighter and the Saints would have much more pull.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Geelong giving up a pick below 20 for a player? Unheard of

Can only give those kinds of picks up when we get them from Gold Coast first

 

[stavro#4]

Comes down to a lot of factors. I think Ross offers greater stability. I'd be moving to Saints.

I think we are a real chance.

 

[Forty3]

Saint's are a real chance based on the differential in contract offer.
Blues have got offered their max, averaging around 1.1M a year for 5 with triggers. Player manager are trying to squeeze more, but the cupboard is bare.

Saints offer exceeds that by more than half a million a year. So there is a lot to consider for the guy.

Blues cannot match the saints offer, but for other clubs that are getting involved they will have to either have to pay a massive price tag, or be forced to the trade table.
Tom really does love Carlton, so at the moment it really is between the Saints and the Blues, as he does not want out. So clubs like Geelong, Sydney and a couple of others are holding out at the moment, as it would take a large shift in his personal allegiances to leave Carlton for non financial gains.

The AFL is catching up to the rest of the world in the sporting landscape, peoples view on players leaving for money will be hard to get used to at first because we sit here and say they are already earning so much. But players are now more so taking into account how limited their time of earning potential is, as well as the risks involved with the nature of the sport.
So when the gap in 5 years worth of earnings is this big, it's hard to begrudge a player if he does take the money.

At the start of the year TDK was 90%-10% stay, his management were 90%-10% take the money (no surprise). The mood around Carlton at the moment though suggests TDK is closer to 60%-40% still in Carltons favour, but if he keeps improving whilst the club keeps derailing.... well yeah.

If he takes the offer it will be the biggest in the history of the AFL.. for about a week, as the offers getting sent to Harley are next level.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Saint's are a real chance based on the differential in contract offer.
Blues have got offered their max, averaging around 1.1M a year for 5 with triggers. Player manager are trying to squeeze more, but the cupboard is bare.

Saints offer exceeds that by more than half a million a year. So there is a lot to consider for the guy.

Blues cannot match the saints offer, but for other clubs that are getting involved they will have to either have to pay a massive price tag, or be forced to the trade table.
Tom really does love Carlton, so at the moment it really is between the Saints and the Blues, as he does not want out. So clubs like Geelong, Sydney and a couple of others are holding out at the moment, as it would take a large shift in his personal allegiances to leave Carlton for non financial gains.

The AFL is catching up to the rest of the world in the sporting landscape, peoples view on players leaving for money will be hard to get used to at first because we sit here and say they are already earning so much. But players are now more so taking into account how limited their time of earning potential is, as well as the risks involved with the nature of the sport.
So when the gap in 5 years worth of earnings is this big, it's hard to begrudge a player if he does take the money.

At the start of the year TDK was 90%-10% stay, his management were 90%-10% take the money (no surprise). The mood around Carlton at the moment though suggests TDK is closer to 60%-40% still in Carltons favour, but if he keeps improving whilst the club keeps derailing.... well yeah.

If he takes the offer it will be the biggest in the history of the AFL.. for about a week, as the offers getting sent to Harley are next level.

Any chance the Blues move on others to keep him if it comes down to that and the Blues keep imploding 43?

 

[THE_GUN]

Any chance the Blues move on others to keep him if it comes down to that and the Blues keep imploding 43?

They would be crazy if they didnt
But who can they move on at the end of the year thats on significant money thats out of contract ?
Williams & McGovern would be the most likely but contracted i believe. McKay i dont think the blues would be looking to move out and would want to keep Cripps , Curnow, Wietering, Cerra , Hewett , Walsh , Mckay at all cost

 

[Forty3]

Any chance the Blues move on others to keep him if it comes down to that and the Blues keep imploding 43?

Depends really, ball is in Tom's court. If they are haggling over 100k ish per season then he will sign before it gets to FA period and we'll find the space during the trade period.

If it gets to the FA period, there is only a day or two overlap between FA closing and the trade period starting. So hard to move on players and find the money to match in such a short window. As the offer has to be matched dollar for dollar, year for year. Trades would need to be agreed upon and signed off on day 1 to give us the ability to match, that said, we will not match Saints offer if we believe he'll decide to stay, because it would be a diabolical list decision to actually have that contract on our books, no matter how good he is. The ripple on effects would be disastrous to an already unbalanced list.

We would only go down that path if he's committed to leaving, but we want a more fair trade value than a singular pick for the highest salary in the league.

 

[Stamos]

We would only go down that path if he's committed to leaving, but we want a more fair trade value than a singular pick for the highest salary in the league.

But then why would St Kilda agree to trade fair price when they've offered such a large contract because they can get him for free?

 

[Forty3]

But then why would St Kilda agree to trade fair price when they've offered such a large contract because they can get him for free?

Because once they have submitted the contract offer they cannot withdraw or amend it. So if Tom says yes to the Saints and we match, it is his decision alone whether he wants to stay or move.
As there is a relationship strong relationship with the club and Tom, we will know what he will do if we match.

So we will only go down the route of trying to find a way to match if we know he won't U-turn. The club that has submitted the offer, if accepted, will have to either trade of he enters the draft.
I don't believe he'll get very far in the draft. It's also not a popular move with Players and Managers to make an offer like that and then leave them in limbo.

 

[Stamos]

Because once they have submitted the contract offer they cannot withdraw or amend it. So if Tom says yes to the Saints and we match, it is his decision alone whether he wants to stay or move.
As there is a relationship strong relationship with the club and Tom, we will know what he will do if we match.

So we will only go down the route of trying to find a way to match if we know he won't U-turn. The club that has submitted the offer, if accepted, will have to either trade of he enters the draft.
I don't believe he'll get very far in the draft. It's also not a popular move with Players and Managers to make an offer like that and then leave them in limbo.

But from St Kilda's point of view, isn't the offer to get him for free?
Rather than to get him having to give up big trade currency?

 

[THE_GUN]

If he decides to leave via free agent then Carlton wont match as he would either stay or StKilda wont offer more than their 1st rounder then Carlton is left in a crap place to either accept or risk losing him for nothing - Wont happen

My opinion is if Carlton can offer $1.5 mil then he stays , If they cant move from their $1 mil then he is gone

 

[Forty3]

But from St Kilda's point of view, isn't the offer to get him for free?
Rather than to get him having to give up big trade currency?

Yes, but that's not how RFA works.
They have made an audacious offer to get him for "free", and if he accepts then it comes now to whether we are going to accept the compensation the AFL gives, or match and force a trade.

As I said, once the Saints or whichever other club goes down this path submits the offer, it cannot be withdrawn or amended by them, the player signs a contract with the new club. This contract is provided to the club he currently plays for in full so they have 3 days to decide if they want to match it as it is written, the club that has recruited him cannot change their mind because they wanted him for free, as a contract has been signed. So it is at the player digression whether they want to remain at their current club, or move to the new club, but as he is an RFA, if he still wants to move it has to be via trade or enter the draft.

 

[THE_GUN]

Yes, but that's not how RFA works.
They have made an audacious offer to get him for "free", and if he accepts then it comes now to whether we are going to accept the compensation the AFL gives, or match and force a trade.

As I said, once the Saints or whichever other club goes down this path submits the offer, it cannot be withdrawn or amended by them, the player signs a contract with the new club. This contract is provided to the club he currently plays for in full so they have 3 days to decide if they want to match it as it is written, the club that has recruited him cannot change their mind because they wanted him for free, as a contract has been signed. So it is at the player digression whether they want to remain at their current club, or move to the new club, but as he is an RFA, if he still wants to move it has to be via trade or enter the draft.

If Carlton match then he stays. Simple

 

[Forty3]

If he decides to leave via free agent then Carlton wont match as he would either stay or StKilda wont offer more than their 1st rounder then Carlton is left in a crap place to either accept or risk losing him for nothing - Wont happen

My opinion is if Carlton can offer $1.5 mil then he stays , If they cant move from their $1 mil then he is gone

Very unlikely to be the case.
Even with the history of Carlton and its divorce with Sos, player manager control so much more of the way these trades go down these days. If their client accepts such an offer, then the club doesn't come to the table, management groups are very quick to remind them of the players that are on their list coming out of contract soon...

And as SOS has made clear in the past, if you offer the contract, you gotta pay a fair price.

 

[Elixuh]

Any chance the Blues move on others to keep him if it comes down to that and the Blues keep imploding 43?

The problem might be the players who will free up the cap space would not be wanted at any other club at their price point, eg Williams. Unless maybe a GC cap dump with picks going to other club.

 

[THE_GUN]

Very unlikely to be the case.
Even with the history of Carlton and its divorce with Sos, player manager control so much more of the way these trades go down these days. If their client accepts such an offer, then the club doesn't come to the table, management groups are very quick to remind them of the players that are on their list coming out of contract soon...

And as SOS has made clear in the past, if you offer the contract, you gotta pay a fair price.

He offered the contract to Martin but didnt pay the price and took him in the draft

If Carlton are thinking about matching just to ensure a better trade than what they will get as a free agent compo that is playing russian roulette with SOS

Carlton either up their offer to $1.5 and TDK signs and stays or he signs with StKilda for the $1.7 x 7 years deal
and Carlton just take the top 7/8 compo pick

Saints wont pay 2 x 1st rounders plus $1.7 mil

 

[THE_GUN]

The problem might be the players who will free up the cap space would not be wanted at any other club at their price point, eg Williams. Unless maybe a GC cap dump with picks going to other club.

Problem with that is Carlton dont have the picks to put in Williams back pocket

 

[Taylor]

Yes, but that's not how RFA works.
They have made an audacious offer to get him for "free", and if he accepts then it comes now to whether we are going to accept the compensation the AFL gives, or match and force a trade.

As I said, once the Saints or whichever other club goes down this path submits the offer, it cannot be withdrawn or amended by them, the player signs a contract with the new club. This contract is provided to the club he currently plays for in full so they have 3 days to decide if they want to match it as it is written, the club that has recruited him cannot change their mind because they wanted him for free, as a contract has been signed. So it is at the player digression whether they want to remain at their current club, or move to the new club, but as he is an RFA, if he still wants to move it has to be via trade or enter the draft.

It's not matched as it's written. Just on total years and total guaranteed dollars.

If he wants to stay at Carlton but at St Kilda pay the blues match and he just agrees to the terms and stays.

Carlton and every other club CAN afford to match a 2m x 10 year deal. Every single club can.

But matching locks Carlton into the total dollars and total years.

 

[Forty3]

If Carlton match then he stays. Simple

Carlton will only match if they know he won't stay. These things aren't secretive, especially if the player is want to stay that much, it won't get to that point.
The idea of a player putting his current club in a situation like that when he's completely aware of the impact it will have on the club if he does spring a surprise and stay is ridiculous.

The only stipulation is there is nothing stopping Carlton and TDK coming to terms on a different deal within the three day period after TDK has signed a deal with the other club. Which is a very strange little side rule within the laws.

But Carlton will not be able to pay the offer that the Saints have put forward, they can move money around to match it and force a trade or they can negotiate with Tom a different deal that enables both club and player to be happy.

But as I say, it doesn't get to that stage only for a player to change their mind. The only evidence we have really is Jeremy Cameron.

Clubs are aware of the players decision before they decide to match or not. Players, well very rarely, want to completely screw over the club they are leaving, and even more so wouldn't do it to a club that they end up staying at.

 

[Forty3]

It's not matched as it's written. Just on total years and total guaranteed dollars.

If he wants to stay at Carlton but at St Kilda pay the blues match and he just agrees to the terms and stays.

Carlton and every other club CAN afford to match a 2m x 10 year deal. Every single club can.

But matching locks Carlton into the total dollars and total years.

The Restricted Free Agent’s Current Club has the right to match the proposed contract, arrangement, agreement or understanding in respect of the Restricted Free Agent on identical terms to the Offer in relation to each of:
(i) contract length;
(ii) base payments;
(iii) total match payment rates;
(iv) total Additional Services agreement payments;
(v) total performance incentives based on AFL awards or honours, Club best and fairest finish and matches played, but excluding Finals.
For the avoidance of doubt, incentive payments for team performance are not required to be matched by the Current Club.

So yeah, maybe not letter for letter, but in regards to years, base salary, match payments, and any additional earnings.

Not a heap of wiggle room, can't just say we will sign you for 15 years and pay you half the amount yearly, but keep paying you after you retire.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Carlton will only match if they know he won't stay. These things aren't secretive, especially if the player is want to stay that much, it won't get to that point.
The idea of a player putting his current club in a situation like that when he's completely aware of the impact it will have on the club if he does spring a surprise and stay is ridiculous.

The only stipulation is there is nothing stopping Carlton and TDK coming to terms on a different deal within the three day period after TDK has signed a deal with the other club. Which is a very strange little side rule within the laws.

But Carlton will not be able to pay the offer that the Saints have put forward, they can move money around to match it and force a trade or they can negotiate with Tom a different deal that enables both club and player to be happy.

But as I say, it doesn't get to that stage only for a player to change their mind. The only evidence we have really is Jeremy Cameron.

Clubs are aware of the players decision before they decide to match or not. Players, well very rarely, want to completely screw over the club they are leaving, and even more so wouldn't do it to a club that they end up staying at.

Do you think the Saints might get spooked if we say we'd match an offer no matter how ridiculous to force a trade to be adequately compensated? Wouldn't put it past SOS but imagine that would go down like a led balloon amongst player managers and the AFLPA

 

[bradfisher14]

I have absolutely nothing to contribute, but just wanna say we need you back in the blumours thread Forty3