Tom Hawkins 350 games - What is his standing in the game?

[Lunchtime]

Below Fev? Seriously?

I think at times Richo is underrated a tad. He was a brilliant player and sometimes moved out of the forward line too. That 2008 season where he played on the wing, nearly won a Brownlow medal, finished 3rd. He is probably one of the best marks/contested marks in the history of the game - really good hands.

His accuracy, yeah shots on goal let him down at times but he did go at 59.2%. .....Bernie Quinlan (they called him super boot) was worse.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I think at times Richo is underrated a tad. He was a brilliant player and sometimes moved out of the forward line too. That 2008 season where he played on the wing, nearly won a Brownlow medal, finished 3rd. He is probably one of the best marks/contested marks in the history of the game - really good hands.

His accuracy, yeah shots on goal let him down at times but he did go at 59.2%. .....Bernie Quinlan (they called him super boot) was worse.

The irony for the Cats supporter is that Richos goal kicking accuracy was just a smidge worse than GASs was who also didnt even go at 60%.

 

[Del165198]

Has the absolute best push in the back in the game

 

[Lunchtime]

The irony for the Cats supporter is that Richos goal kicking accuracy was just a smidge worse than GASs was who also didnt even go at 60%.

59.9%

 

[Lunchtime]

Let's look at Goal Assists for the "Big 4" Full Forwards of the past 15 odd years..

Average in brackets - per game

Hawkins: 291 (0.83), 349 games

Riewoldt: 249 (0.71), 347 games

Franklin: 231 (0.65), 354 games

Kennedy: 150 (0.51), 293 games

 

[Cdog71]

Generational player and can see him playing another 50 games if he stays healthy. Just be that Bear in the Square fwd.
I’m biased but I’d have Riewoldt, he should have been AA in 2012 being the Coleman winner in a team that finished 12th.
There’s also the 2019 Prelim he missed, another time he got rubbed out for doing something dumb.
Cats where down by 4 points at the start of the 4th quarter
Henderson and Ratagolea kicked 1 goal between em.
Lynch kicked 5.
The winner going on to play GWS, I’m glad they finally won one because there might’ve been a few players wondering what could have been.

 

[Lunchtime]

Let's look at Goal Assists for the "Big 4" Full Forwards of the past 15 odd years..

Average in brackets - per game

Hawkins: 291 (0.83), 349 games

Riewoldt: 249 (0.71), 347 games

Franklin: 231 (0.65), 354 games

Kennedy: 150 (0.51), 293 games

In Finals games when it truly matters and the pressure is being poured on, how did the "Big 4" of the last 15 odd years perform for goals kicked?

Average in brackets - per game

Franklin: 74 (2.64), 28 games

Hawkins: 56 (1.75), 32 games

Riewoldt: 33 (2.06), 16 games

Kennedy: 40 (2.35), 17 games

 

[PhatBoy]

In Finals games when it truly matters and the pressure is being poured on, how did the "Big 4" of the last 15 odd years perform for goals kicked?

Average in brackets - per game

Franklin: 74 (2.64), 28 games

Hawkins: 56 (1.75), 32 games

Riewoldt: 33 (2.06), 16 games

Kennedy: 40 (2.35), 17 games

Lollllll two of them played almost all their finals at their peak.

Let’s do some slightly more investigative journalism on this shall we???

Jack Riewoldt. Hmm what have we here??
Says here he didn’t play a final until he was….( checks notes) almost 25.
That’s interesting. And he kicked 1 goal.
Even after his first 7 finals, by the time he was almost 29, he’d kicked 12 goals. That can’t be right though - he was a finals beast his whole career I’m sure and his figures owe nothing to the fact that he played most of his finals when he was mature, in a strong side and they were at their peak.


What about Josh Kennedy?

Hmm. It says here he didn’t play a final until he was 24 and in his 6th season? Again that can’t be right - I thought all these guys just played finals from when they were kids.



Now let’s just see how many finals Hawkins had played by this stage and whether, you know, he’d had a chance to, I don’t know, say, ‘reach his peak’ or mature, or, play his best football by this stage?

Well isn’t that interesting.

He’d already played 10 finals before either of the other two had played any, and only managed 12 goals.
That’s a huge surprise - that a player not near his peak, playing finals football against the best teams in the league, kicked a smaller amount of goals.
Boy, am I shocked.

And he still managed to more or less win his team a grand final even when he sucked.

So there you have it. Young developing forward takes time to produce his better football in the finals

Huge if true

 

[Lunchtime]

Lollllll two of them played almost all their finals at their peak.

Let’s do some slightly more investigative journalism on this shall we???

Jack Riewoldt. Hmm what have we here??
Says here he didn’t play a final until he was….( checks notes) almost 25.
That’s interesting. And he kicked 1 goal.
Even after his first 7 finals, by the time he was almost 29, he’d kicked 12 goals. That can’t be right though - he was a finals beast his whole career I’m sure and his figures owe nothing to the fact that he played most of his finals when he was mature, in a strong side and they were at their peak.


What about Josh Kennedy?

Hmm. It says here he didn’t play a final until he was 24 and in his 6th season? Again that can’t be right - I thought all these guys just played finals from when they were kids.



Now let’s just see how many finals Hawkins had played by this stage and whether, you know, he’d had a chance to, I don’t know, say, ‘reach his peak’ or mature, or, play his best football by this stage?

Well isn’t that interesting.

He’d already played 10 finals before either of the other two had played any, and only managed 12 goals.
That’s a huge surprise - that a player not near his peak, playing finals football against the best teams in the league, kicked a smaller amount of goals.
Boy, am I shocked.

And he still managed to more or less win his team a grand final even when he sucked.

So there you have it. Young developing forward takes time to produce his better football in the finals

Huge if true

Sorry if the stats don't believe you.

 

[PhatBoy]

Sorry if the stats don't believe you.

Well the stats do believe me because they’re accurate.

It’s like saying Mike Hussey is the equivalent batsman of Steve Smith because his average is so high, when he was brought into the test team as a 30 year old. Of course he’s going to have a good record he’d spent a decade playing first class cricket in the best domestic competition in the world. Why wouldn’t Riewoldt have a decent finals record he played almost all his finals when he was an established senior player in a dominant team. Same with Kennedy. Use some common sense

 

[STPer18]

Lollllll two of them played almost all their finals at their peak.

Let’s do some slightly more investigative journalism on this shall we???

Jack Riewoldt. Hmm what have we here??
Says here he didn’t play a final until he was….( checks notes) almost 25.
That’s interesting. And he kicked 1 goal.
Even after his first 7 finals, by the time he was almost 29, he’d kicked 12 goals. That can’t be right though - he was a finals beast his whole career I’m sure and his figures owe nothing to the fact that he played most of his finals when he was mature, in a strong side and they were at their peak.


What about Josh Kennedy?

Hmm. It says here he didn’t play a final until he was 24 and in his 6th season? Again that can’t be right - I thought all these guys just played finals from when they were kids.



Now let’s just see how many finals Hawkins had played by this stage and whether, you know, he’d had a chance to, I don’t know, say, ‘reach his peak’ or mature, or, play his best football by this stage?

Well isn’t that interesting.

He’d already played 10 finals before either of the other two had played any, and only managed 12 goals.
That’s a huge surprise - that a player not near his peak, playing finals football against the best teams in the league, kicked a smaller amount of goals.
Boy, am I shocked.

And he still managed to more or less win his team a grand final even when he sucked.

So there you have it. Young developing forward takes time to produce his better football in the finals

Huge if true

Even as a kid he had some huge clutch moments. 2011 GF was his breakout but in the dour 2009 GF in his third year he came out in the last quarter and kicked the first. I remember thinking if Saints kicked the first we'd be in all sorts - turns out they didn't kick one at all in that term but it was a huge goal in the context of the game.

 

[PhatBoy]

They have a problem when you bag a Geelong player.

I don’t get why it’s so hard for them to say I really rate Hawkins for his longevity despite the fact his peak wasn’t as good as the others.

No, we just see when someone has an obvious flaw in their logic.

 

[Toump Ass]

I loved when he stuck his finger up his nose and it was caught on camera. I also remember him getting suspended for some important finals.
Good player otherwise.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Well the stats do believe me because they’re accurate.

It’s like saying Mike Hussey is the equivalent batsman of Steve Smith because his average is so high, when he was brought into the test team as a 30 year old. Of course he’s going to have a good record he’d spent a decade playing first class cricket in the best domestic competition in the world. Why wouldn’t Riewoldt have a decent finals record he played almost all his finals when he was an established senior player in a dominant team. Same with Kennedy. Use some common sense

Hawkins peak was late 20s early 30s. It was a different age to them. So your “stats” aren’t the equivalent. He just wasn’t as good in finals . Sorry that’s just what the stats say not your imagination.

 

[STPer18]

They have a problem when you bag a Geelong player.

I don’t get why it’s so hard for them to say I really rate Hawkins for his longevity despite the fact his peak wasn’t as good as the others.

Not easy being a 5x AA key forward with the competition for limited spots, and every time he was named in a key post and on the field. Longevity and excellence.

2012: AA Full Forward
2019: AA Full Forward
2020: AA Full Forward
2021: AA CHF
2022: AA Captain Full Forward

 

[Lunchtime]

Not easy being a 5x AA key forward with the competition for limited spots, and every time he was named in a key post and on the field. Longevity and excellence.

2012: AA Full Forward
2019: AA Full Forward
2020: AA Full Forward
2021: AA CHF
2022: AA Captain Full Forward

View attachment 1937952

That data is very good. However, I think it's best to assess players based on their entire careers and not just choose a certain period of time. But absolutely, as that data tells us - Hawkins has got better as he has got older. A credit to him. In that period highlighted, he won his Coleman medal as well (2020).

 

[STPer18]

That data is very good. However, I think it's best to assess players based on their entire careers.

Agree. Hawkins will retire having kicked more goals than Bernie Quinlin, Matthew Richardson, Jack Riewoldt, Kevin Bartlett, Sav Rocca, Barry Hall, Stephen Kernahan, Wayne Carey, Peter Hudson, Josh Kennedy, Nick Riewoldt, Matthew Pavlich etc etc.

 

[Lunchtime]

Agree. Hawkins will retire having kicked more goals than Bernie Quinlin, Matthew Richardson, Jack Riewoldt, Kevin Bartlett, Sav Rocca, Barry Hall, Stephen Kernahan, Wayne Carey, Peter Hudson, Josh Kennedy, Nick Riewoldt, Matthew Pavlich etc etc.

I think so yes. It's just a matter of where people slot him in, in terms of assessment/ranking.

One thing I will say is - longevity is to be applauded but it shouldn't be the only measuring stick. More games played basically means for a Forward - more opportunity to kick more goals.

I always tell people in sport in general, when assessing players or animals (horse racing), you have to use stats together with what your eyes are telling you and take in all factors, pluss the most important factor of all and where a lot of peoppe fall down....remove any bias/emotional attachment as well. This is why and I'll say it again, this goes back to my initial post where I said that in terms of Jack Riewoldt and Tom Hawkins...theres not much at all between them, neither is miles ahead of each other which is why I conclude that they are as good as each other and it's a genuine dead heat between them.

 

[PhatBoy]

That data is very good. However, I think it's best to assess players based on their entire careers and not just choose a certain period of time. But absolutely, as that data tells us - Hawkins has got better as he has got older. A credit to him. In that period highlighted, he won his Coleman medal as well (2020).

Then assess it properly.

A proper assessment looks at the data and works out if there is any reason for the difference beyond just ‘this guy is better than this guy.’

Your assessment is no different to looking at two opening batsmen, one from South Africa and one from Sri Lanka and saying ‘this one from Sri Lanka is better because he has a higher average.’

Well that doesn’t tell anyone shit, does it. Because as everyone knows, it’s heaps harder to bat against a new ball in South Africa.

The same as anyone who follows football knows that two of the four players you mentioned, played a whole stack of finals when they were young and not near their peak. One of them was a freak anyway and is clearly miles better than the others so it doesn’t carry much relevance.

You’ve also ignored in what at least seems a blatant attempt to imply ‘this player is the inferior finals player’ that the forward in question was among the best on ground in two winning grand finals.

Hell the guy has kicked 27 goals in his last 9 do or die finals ffs

 

[Lunchtime]

Then assess it properly.

A proper assessment looks at the data and works out if there is any reason for the difference beyond just ‘this guy is better than this guy.’

Your assessment is no different to looking at two opening batsmen, one from South Africa and one from Sri Lanka and saying ‘this one from Sri Lanka is better because he has a higher average.’

Well that doesn’t tell anyone s**t, does it. Because as everyone knows, it’s heaps harder to bat against a new ball in South Africa.

The same as anyone who follows football knows that two of the four players you mentioned, played a whole stack of finals when they were young and not near their peak. One of them was a freak anyway and is clearly miles better than the others so it doesn’t carry much relevance.

You’ve also ignored in what is a blatant statement attempt to imply ‘this player is the inferior finals player’ that the forward in question was among the best on ground in two winning grand finals.

Hell the guy has kicked 27 goals in his last 9 do or die finals ffs

Again you need to assess a players whole career. 27 goals in 9 finals is veey good but you're forgetting his whole career in finals matches, it all evens out in the end

 

[PhatBoy]

Again you need to assess a players whole career. 27 goals in 9 finals is veey good but you're forgetting his whole career in finals matches, it all evens out in the end

Again, there is no point assessing anything unless you apply context, which you haven’t.

 

[rapidfire7]

I was actually on board with him retiring last year. Not so much for him or because he'd become a liability, but with a view to 3-5 years from now. We can't afford to lose Hawkins and Cameron in the same year, or back-to-back years, considering another secondary marking target (Rohan) will also probably be done by the end of 2025, probably sooner with Dempsey's emergence.

Barring a major free agent signing, we need to hope that the next long-term key forward option is on our list (we'll use Shannon Neale as the likeliest example) and we need to phase the forward line between now and 2027/28 to be:

2024: Hawkins/Cameron (with Neale getting as much AFL exposure as possible, considering the ladder position)

2025-27(ish): Cameron/Neale

2027-onwards: Neale/???

It needs to be managed very precisely for the good of Geelong long-term. And if Hawkins is keen to continue and make a push to 900+, well I hope he finds another club for those next 2-3 years and I'll cheer every one he kicks, especially if it isn't against us.

For me, if he actually gave a tinker's cuss about 700+/800+/900+, he's had a funny way of showing it over the last 10-12 years.

Dunno where you come up with this stuff. There's no way Hawkins would end up at another club, and there's no way Geelong would want him to go anywhere whilst he is still playing well.

 

[PhatBoy]

Dunno where you come up with this stuff. There's no way Hawkins would end up at another club, and there's no way Geelong would want him to go anywhere whilst he is still playing well.

I don’t want him anywhere else either but I can kind of see the logic if that’s the way you’re inclined to view the development of the next generation. I’d have no problem with him having a season or two elsewhere if he felt that way inclined but I can’t imagine he’d do it

 

[Lunchtime]

Clearly behind Buddy, but in the conversation as the second best Key Forward of the 21st century with both Reiwoldt's and Kennedy.

Yep this is a fair and reasonable response I think. Alongside the Riewoldts and Josh Kennedy with Franklin clearly ahead.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Lollllll two of them played almost all their finals at their peak.

Let’s do some slightly more investigative journalism on this shall we???

Jack Riewoldt. Hmm what have we here??
Says here he didn’t play a final until he was….( checks notes) almost 25.
That’s interesting. And he kicked 1 goal.
Even after his first 7 finals, by the time he was almost 29, he’d kicked 12 goals. That can’t be right though - he was a finals beast his whole career I’m sure and his figures owe nothing to the fact that he played most of his finals when he was mature, in a strong side and they were at their peak.


What about Josh Kennedy?

Hmm. It says here he didn’t play a final until he was 24 and in his 6th season? Again that can’t be right - I thought all these guys just played finals from when they were kids.



Now let’s just see how many finals Hawkins had played by this stage and whether, you know, he’d had a chance to, I don’t know, say, ‘reach his peak’ or mature, or, play his best football by this stage?

Well isn’t that interesting.

He’d already played 10 finals before either of the other two had played any, and only managed 12 goals.
That’s a huge surprise - that a player not near his peak, playing finals football against the best teams in the league, kicked a smaller amount of goals.
Boy, am I shocked.

And he still managed to more or less win his team a grand final even when he sucked.

So there you have it. Young developing forward takes time to produce his better football in the finals

Huge if true

Easily the best key forward on the ground in two of his three premiership wins and was basically as good as any of the others in the third. He could have/should have filled his boots in two blow-out wins in the 2022 finals and ended with about 10 in that series... oh well, he kicked the game breakers, missed the junk times.

Unlike the others listed, Colemans were never really Hawkins' thing. I'd argue that unlike the others, Hawkins could have a great game and kick 0-1 goals.