Strategy Trade and List Management thread 2.(...the waiting for the hammer to fall edition)

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Probably, but we can't just avoid it indefinitely. What are our other options? We have to find a new way of dealing with this.

Absolutely we do, but one that historically just doesn't work isn't the smartest way of going about it in my opinion.

 

[go you pups]

Garbage footballer carried by a good team

Yep

Massive downhill skiier too

 

[go you pups]

Matt Fuller 42
Tom Barass 43
Aliir Aliir 44
Ben Brown 46

You can't draft KPP, later in the draft, may as well throw the picks away!

Lololololololol

Looks just as bad like Everitt at 11 vs Frawley and Riewoldt at 12 and 13

I hate this clubs drafting philosophy

 

[BRWB]

Absolutely we do, but one that historically just doesn't work isn't the smartest way of going about it in my opinion.

An even lower percentage play is recruiting other clubs delistees.

And even lower, actually a zero percent play, is not trying to draft a KP at all.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

An even lie percentage play is recruiting other clubs delistees.

And even lower, actually a zero percent play, is not trying to draft a KP at all.

You realise those aren't the only ways to recruit a key forward, right?

 

[BRWB]

You realise those aren't the only ways to recruit a key forward, right?

I realise that thanks mate. It's been done to death, and we know what we've done.

And now we have Cloke to look forward too, or we wait for an ordinary three time knee reco (two when recruited) to come back.

Yes we got Boyd at tremendous risk. Not sure our method is working.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I realise that thanks mate. It's been done to death, and we know what we've done.

And now we have Cloke to look forward too, or we wait for an ordinary three time knee reco (two when recruited) to come back.

Yes we got Boyd at tremendous risk. Not sure our method is working.

Not suggesting our strategy has worked btw, not at all. Just think we have to be smart about it now that we're getting close. We have to find a way to bring them in, whether that's luring a good name across, exploring free agency, trading up with our pick(s), bringing in a high pick, whatever. We need to bring in a competent key forward or two. But the key word there is "competent;" I just can't back a strategy which works once in a blue moon. Making best use of your assets is so, so, so important in this phase.

 

[BRWB]

Not suggesting our strategy has worked btw, not at all. Just think we have to be smart about it now that we're getting close. We have to find a way to bring them in, whether that's luring a good name across, exploring free agency, trading up with our pick(s), bringing in a high pick, whatever. We need to bring in a competent key forward or two. But the key word there is "competent;" I just can't back a strategy which works once in a blue moon. Making best use of your assets is so, so, so important in this phase.

We can't rely on KPs drafted now to help us in the next couple of years - not saying we don't draft them.

But we need to use FA or a ballsy trade to do it.

IMO we have to offer our fringe mids to GCS and get some currency and make a massive play for J Reiwoldt even if we have to pay massive overs. And if Barrett is right the Tiges will listen irrespective of what Jack says publicly.

Cooked guys like Dawes, Cloke and Schulz aren't the answer. Redpath ain't the answer.

 

[Zgope1]

watching our vfl game, we have so many trade assets. so many gems. teams talk about raiding GWS, any good scout would be all over our list, so much cheap talent for rebuilding teams. we need to be bold and capitalize on it and we need to be the team that gets Jack Roo if richmond is incompetent enough to trade him

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

We can't rely on KPs drafted now to help us in the next couple of years - not saying we don't draft them.

But we need to use FA or a ballsy trade to do it.

IMO we have to offer our fringe mids to GCS and get some currency and make a massive play for J Reiwoldt even if we have to pay massive overs. And if Barrett is right the Tiges will listen irrespective of what Jack says publicly.

Cooked guys like Dawes, Cloke and Schulz aren't the answer. Redpath ain't the answer.

Agree with a lot of this so not going to go over everything, but just out of curiosity, do you think we're one KPF away from being a genuine contender?

 

[GrahamSmith]

Just a quick question to all you draft watchers, are there any decent forwards likely to be around our first pick if we decide to keep it? Cheers in advance

 

[BRWB]

Agree with a lot of this so not going to go over everything, but just out of curiosity, do you think we're one KPF away from being a genuine contender?

No.

We won't win a flag with our current KPDs IMO. A genuine KPD is just as big, if not a greater need IMO. We are seriously kidding ourselves if we think blokes with less than 15 games like Cordy and Adams do it. Fletch and Hamling...well you know my thoughts. If we have a gun KPD our need to flood and ruin our scoring chances will diminish and free up Crameri, Boyd and Stringer.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

No.

We won't win a flag with our current KPDs IMO. A genuine KPD is just as big, if not a greater need IMO. We are seriously kidding ourselves if we think blokes with less than 15 games like Cordy and Adams do it. Fletch and Hamling...well you know my thoughts. If we have a gun KPD our need to flood and ruin our scoring chances will diminish and free up Crameri, Boyd and Stringer.

I tend to agree. Also unsure that Roughead as first ruck is sustainable and believe we lack natural (smaller) forwards.

I guess my point is that we're already a really good side but we do have a few areas that probably need some work. Some of that is natural progression, some is getting players back and some is tactical/structural development (zone needs adjusting, we can't score when we compress so hard and hedge on the side of defence), but I think we need to be prepared to accept that we need to keep adding talent in multiple areas rather than getting tunnel vision and overpaying for one type.

I hear you re: Riewoldt but the danger is we use a huge chunk of our assets for him (or someone like him - still don't think he's traded) then go, "Oh shit, we need a key defender ASAP," for example. Agree we desperately need another competent key forward and am keen to explore all options to get one, but I think we need to be smart about it too. Not against taking risks, but they have to be calculated and fall short of, "SELL EVERYTHING FOR THIS BLOKE!"

I will say that I am not as against Cloke as you are though. If the price is right, I'm keen.

 

[Testekill]

I don't want anyone suggesting Witts from now on

 

[BRWB]

I tend to agree. Also unsure that Roughead as first ruck is sustainable and believe we lack natural (smaller) forwards.

I guess my point is that we're already a really good side but we do have a few areas that probably need some work. Some of that is natural progression, some is getting players back and some is tactical/structural development (zone needs adjusting, we can't score when we compress so hard and hedge on the side of defence), but I think we need to be prepared to accept that we need to keep adding talent in multiple areas rather than getting tunnel vision and overpaying for one type.

I hear you re: Riewoldt but the danger is we use a huge chunk of our assets for him (or someone like him - still don't think he's traded) then go, "Oh shit, we need a key defender ASAP," for example. Agree we desperately need another competent key forward and am keen to explore all options to get one, but I think we need to be smart about it too. Not against taking risks, but they have to be calculated and fall short of, "SELL EVERYTHING FOR THIS BLOKE!"

I will say that I am not as against Cloke as you are though. If the price is right, I'm keen.

The sort of deal I'm thinking has to be overs. We've stocked up on mids by largely not drafting tall - we can now cash in.

An example.

Tiges get Prestia, Our first rd
GC gets our second rd next yr, Hrovat and Jong (both of whom they are interested)
We get Reiwoldt.

That is overs for GCS and the Tiges IMO. But we can cover it IMO.

Second rd this year to Eagles for McKenzie.

Trade Stevens to upgrade one of our third rds to a high second. Vardy for 4th rd

Moz McKenzie Boyd
Murph Adams. Wood
Macrae Bont. JJ
Stringer Reiwoldt. Crameri
Smith. Boyd. Daniel
Campbell Libba Dahl
Int. Hunter Suckling Daniel Rough

Depth Dickson, McLean, R Smith, Biggs, Fletch, Hamling, Vardy, Cordy, Webb, Dale, Dunkley, Collins, etc


That is a premiership list IMO.

 

[jdz101]

I don't want anyone suggesting Witts from now on

You could say you're at witts end with those suggestions....

 

[Testekill]

You could say you're at witts end with those suggestions....

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

The sort of deal I'm thinking has to be overs. We've stocked up on mids by largely not drafting tall - we can now cash in.

An example.

Tiges get Prestia, Our first rd
GC gets our second rd next yr, Hrovat and Jong (both of whom they are interested)
We get Reiwoldt.

That is overs for GCS and the Tiges IMO. But we can cover it IMO.

Second rd this year to Eagles for McKenzie.

Trade Stevens to upgrade one of our third rds to a high second. Vardy for 4th rd

Moz McKenzie Boyd
Murph Adams. Wood
Macrae Bont. JJ
Stringer Reiwoldt. Crameri
Smith. Boyd. Daniel
Campbell Libba Dahl
Int. Hunter Suckling Daniel Rough

Depth Dickson, McLean, R Smith, Biggs, Fletch, Hamling, Vardy, Cordy, Webb, Dale, Dunkley, Collins, etc


That is a premiership list IMO.

I hold massive doubts that GC would accept a (future) second, Hrovat and Jong for Prestia. Jong's serviceable depth at times and Hrovat can be a good, solid player, but Prestia is already a good-very good (albeit injury prone) young mid. I'm not as high on him as some are but he's still proven a lot more than either of them. Further, with that sort of list you'd hope we do well next year meaning our second pick would be in the late 30s. It's just not enough. GC will need a first in there somewhere I think. When you trade a good player you need something in the same ball park back the other way, not a collection of decent pieces.

I also have massive concerns over Mackenzie but I understand the logic behind it.

Also short one delisting/trade in your scenario but that could be worked out.

 

[Doggies_13]

Would like to see us seriously look at drafting Hannan and long both worth a punt

 

[1961grandfinal]

Our lack of ruckmen is poor list management and needs to be rectified. To see Roarke having to go third man up today is unsustainable in the long run, our smaller players will get injured.

Staley did well but he is a KPP not a ruckman. Goetz of course has gone but we need to trade some mids for a ruck. Giles showed what he could do, given a chance and would have played for us if on our list.

 

[BIG_BONTS]

A cheap Cloke with a 3rd or 4th rounder pick isn't the worst idea. Keep him out of the gym and on the running track for 3 months... Might just solve our problem. Another woeful goal kicker would drive me mental though.

There has to be some not-quite-up-to-it but intelligent/aggressive state/national basketballers that are ~20-25 years old running around in the lower leagues for a bit of fun that we can rookie and develop. The key thing would be a balance between athletic ability, aggression and a brain competent enough to develop football smarts quickly.

Aka I mean Josh Jenkins but with aggression. Jenkins has pretty poor smarts but is doing well at Adelaide and kicking goals.

 

[Mofra]

If you're going to draft key forwards in the second round you may as well just throw the pick away.

Like Fev or Goodes or Tippett?

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Like Fev or Goodes or Tippett?

Three success stories since 1997 (and one since the draft became really professional) isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of the strategy.

 

[Mofra]

Three success stories since 1997 (and one since the draft became really professional) isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of the strategy.

Three more success stories than we've had - and that discounts players taken later suck as Brown or Jenkins.
Our second best KPF is from the rookie list.

I agree that KPFs who make the grade are mostly first rounders but a hard "no KPFs after the first round" would close the door completely on a number of potentials, especially high leading forwards like Crameri who fit into our system.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Three more success stories than we've had - and that discounts players taken later suck as Brown or Jenkins.
Our second best KPF is from the rookie list.

I agree that KPFs who make the grade are mostly first rounders but a hard "no KPFs after the first round" would close the door completely on a number of potentials, especially high leading forwards like Crameri who fit into our system.

I think I need to be clearer about what I was objecting to: the posts prior to my original suggested we should trade our first rounder down to two seconds to take two key forwards. When I talk objecting to the "strategy" I'm talking about that, not about taking a KPF with a second rounder. In short my position is that we need to bring in a key forward, but our strategy for doing so can't simply be to pick one outside of the first round. The strike rate is so, so, so, so low that it's just not viable.

In general I'm not a huge fan of selecting key forwards outside of the first round but if they're rated next best by your recruiter you shouldn't just pass over them. I'm fine with that. I'm just against that being our primary strategy, and against using other valuable assets to put ourselves in a position to take them.