Strategy Trade and List management Thread (cont in Part 2)

[Charlie Bucket]

Interested in what you guys would think fair trade would be for Atkins.

Id say English is off the table? What about your first pick with Melbournes coming back with Atkins to have enough for young West.

Atkins is contracted til 2020 and came 9th in our BnF. His best is game winning but needed a good kick up the bum this year

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Rory is a ripper kid who would slot in beautifully at the dogs but won’t be for our first in any combination.
I’d say our Dahl compo which is end of first round.
You can use that to move up in the draft to get more of the SA boys.
That’s my view anyway

 

[Struggle]

Interested in what you guys would think fair trade would be for Atkins.

Id say English is off the table? What about your first pick with Melbournes coming back with Atkins to have enough for young West.

Atkins is contracted til 2020 and came 9th in our BnF. His best is game winning but needed a good kick up the bum this year

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Future second. If that

 

[Dogs Rule]

Great clubs are able to manage their players for sustained success.

Far too many players have declined massively since 16 for it to be blamed on Stringer and players being dickheads.

I think there is a significant issue at the club with regard to managing many players for sustained high performance.

Dahlhaus - at his peak is AA squad level. We saw it v Geelong for his job interview and that was it. And now gone.

Biggs - deteriorated from a best 22 determined but limited HBF in a flag team to a mediocre country footballer in two yrs

T Boyd - my Norm Smith medalist but reported by Fronk that Bev wanted him gone before that occurred. Develops injuries and mental illness and alternately forms a key part of the worst ruck division or fwd line in the league. Has rarely marked it since 16 GF.

Trav Cloke - plays well initially, but develops mental illness and get the last yr of his contract paid out

Stringer - talented and apparently totally off the rails post 16. Controversially kicked out for a couple of second rd picks.

Adams - different cat who keeps asking to be traded (and not just home, more a case of 'just get me out of here')

So many other player have not aproached 16 form. including guns like Libba, Wood, Bont. Young players have not developed as expected like Webb, Daniel.

Of the flag players, Macrae, Cordy Hunter and McLean have maintained or improved since 16.

Plenty of success starved clubs have managed success better. Plenty of one or two team towns have managed far more attention better. So they aren't valid excuses.

There is a mentality on this board that any criticism or concern is labelled whinging or even anxiety projection. Sometimes it appears that even if all Tom Boyd or Beveridge did for the next few yrs was take a dump in the centre circle we would see 16 flag pics posted (and 'liked') in response to any questioning of their work.

Strange place here sometimes.

It sure is strange. Always looking for a conspiracy. You know what? Maybe other teams just worked us out.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Sorry just caught up with this but how is Atkins a player of need? Mid sized running and rebounding defenders who can push up to the wing isn’t something we’re short of.

I like him in a forward half role, starting off a wing and attacking.

The question for me is less, "How does he fit?" and more, "Is he enough of an upgrade to pursue heavily?" When you consider that he's contracted until 2020, best 22 and playing for a club that is going to be very resistant to losing players, and that we need draft selections quite desperately and don't have a second rounder, I'm not totally convinced.

 

[Golden_6]

Sorry just caught up with this but how is Atkins a player of need? Mid sized running and rebounding defenders who can push up to the wing isn’t something we’re short of.

Speed, good ball use and line breaking ability are the exact traits we should be looking to bring in (behind natural forwards of course). I'd be more than comfortable trading the Dahl compo pick for him.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

Interested in what you guys would think fair trade would be for Atkins.

Id say English is off the table? What about your first pick with Melbournes coming back with Atkins to have enough for young West.

Atkins is contracted til 2020 and came 9th in our BnF. His best is game winning but needed a good kick up the bum this year

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Have you heard a trade is on the cards as well or just going by the poster than mentioned it here?

English so far off the table. He's under the couch.

I'd expect we'd not want to trade out first down because then we run the risk of having to use it to cover a bid for West. That would be a massive waste.

 

[Hoges64]

I don't really understand why giving a low earning player a 2 year contract is a mistake. Let's roll with Campbell, Roberts and Jong in this instance.

Roberts and Campbell would be in very low dollars, maybe what 250k a year each? They're Key Position Players and therefore essential to have depth in those positions. They've performed at the top level and held their own. They're not some 20 year old pick 80 tall that is going to get absolutely torched by a Max Gawn or a Jack Riewoldt if we have to use them. They're also very good for our VFL boys to get some experience from, and help develop. So for the most part they'll help with our VFL side and can easily be used to plug holes in the seniors.

At worst, the club has to eat 1 year of a contract if something goes completely amiss. Not a big deal at all on those dollars.

It also means that if they play 6 or 7 games in year 1 and show a bit another club may come calling and we can bargain a little better by being contracted.

Jong, despite his flaws (and we all know what they are) is a solid big-bodied mid who can roll through the forward line. Again, someone like that on minimal dollars is an asset to keep (especially with our injury list), and we all know has also garnered interest from other clubs.

2 year contracts may also help with our list management regarding delistings. Imagine if we had Dahl, Roughead, Biggs, Smith, Redpath, Collins, Mullenger-McHugh, Wallis, Libba AND Jong Roberts and Campbell all leave the club this year. Now we're replacing 12 players instead of 9. 9 is a massive list turnover, and some people want to add to it!

From all reports Libba and Wallis are staying, so even then we've got 7 list spots to fill. Do you really want 10, when the additional 3 add up to about 5-7% of our salary cap!?!?

And what happens next year when we have a decent year and no one wants to leave?

We'll probably be ok, because we can now have a Moz retirement and the delistings of Roberts and Campbell, because Lewis Young has another year under his belt and English is closer to being our number 1 ruck with a body more suitable to AFL football and therefore hopefully more durable.

The mentality that "this guy sucks and doesn't get a consistent game in the seniors so therefore MUST be gotten off our list" is ridiculous, and shows no actual strategic thinking.

 

[webbo]

From afar it seems Bev may be more of a change agent leader type as opposed to a manager.

While they can be fantastic short term, change agent leaders can be destructive if left in the same role for too long. They can change things too much and cause instability. Bev bas certainly been at.the epicenter of poor performance and instability post 16.

Bev himself flagged five or so yrs as a maximum for a role. Wonder if he is that self aware.

I am coming to the view that Bev may well have moved on by the end of 2020 (cue outraged 16 references).

I don't think any of us expected the team to do what they did in 2015 or 2016. No doubt Bevo gets credit for that (as he should).
I would expect us to move up the ladder next season (not into the 8), then hopefully into the 8 in 2020. I think that is a reasonable expectation.
If that does not happen then some criticism can be made of Luke and the coaching staff. If you look at the age of the list that played this year, then I think we slightly outperformed what we should have honestly.
I don't really buy this instability line. It strikes that me that Luke is not satisfied without success and the list management is being active in trying to adapt and change. It also seems to me that we are zigging where others are zagging. It is a risk, but I think it will pay off. A club like St Kilda that has not taken a risk for years now and is languishing without good young players, without direction. We can at least see clear growth ahead.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

I like him in a forward half role, starting off a wing and attacking.

The question for me is less, "How does he fit?" and more, "Is he enough of an upgrade to pursue heavily?" When you consider that he's contracted until 2020, best 22 and playing for a club that is going to be very resistant to losing players, and that we need draft selections quite desperately and don't have a second rounder, I'm not totally convinced.

The op's chequered history of trade rumours should be reason enough for you not to be "totally convinced." Thats all before you consider whether or not he fits a need (I think he does) or indeed how we would arrange a trade for a player that extended his contract by 2 years at the start of the season, even in this age of worthless contracts.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

The op's chequered history of trade rumours should be reason enough for you not to be "totally convinced." Thats all before you consider whether or not he fits a need (I think he does) or indeed how we would arrange a trade for a player that extended his contract by 2 years at the start of the season, even in this age of worthless contracts.

Of course, but I personally would prefer to discuss a new player that has been brought up in a rumour than discuss English going back to WA, the machinations of an Adams trade, the potential for us to get Gaff/Kelly/Shiel, what compensation we might get for Dahl, whether Wallis is leaving and which mature ruck we should target for the 17th time this week.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Of course, but I personally would prefer to discuss a new player that has been brought up in a rumour than discuss English going back to WA, the machinations of an Adams trade, the potential for us to get Gaff/Kelly/Shiel, what compensation we might get for Dahl, whether Wallis is leaving and which mature ruck we should target for the 17th time this week.

Good point.

 

[BRWB]

I don't really understand why giving a low earning player a 2 year contract is a mistake. Let's roll with Campbell, Roberts and Jong in this instance.

Roberts and Campbell would be in very low dollars, maybe what 250k a year each? They're Key Position Players and therefore essential to have depth in those positions. They've performed at the top level and held their own. They're not some 20 year old pick 80 tall that is going to get absolutely torched by a Max Gawn or a Jack Riewoldt if we have to use them. They're also very good for our VFL boys to get some experience from, and help develop. So for the most part they'll help with our VFL side and can easily be used to plug holes in the seniors.

At worst, the club has to eat 1 year of a contract if something goes completely amiss. Not a big deal at all on those dollars.

It also means that if they play 6 or 7 games in year 1 and show a bit another club may come calling and we can bargain a little better by being contracted.

Jong, despite his flaws (and we all know what they are) is a solid big-bodied mid who can roll through the forward line. Again, someone like that on minimal dollars is an asset to keep (especially with our injury list), and we all know has also garnered interest from other clubs.

2 year contracts may also help with our list management regarding delistings. Imagine if we had Dahl, Roughead, Biggs, Smith, Redpath, Collins, Mullenger-McHugh, Wallis, Libba AND Jong Roberts and Campbell all leave the club this year. Now we're replacing 12 players instead of 9. 9 is a massive list turnover, and some people want to add to it!

From all reports Libba and Wallis are staying, so even then we've got 7 list spots to fill. Do you really want 10, when the additional 3 add up to about 5-7% of our salary cap!?!?

And what happens next year when we have a decent year and no one wants to leave?

We'll probably be ok, because we can now have a Moz retirement and the delistings of Roberts and Campbell, because Lewis Young has another year under his belt and English is closer to being our number 1 ruck with a body more suitable to AFL football and therefore hopefully more durable.

The mentality that "this guy sucks and doesn't get a consistent game in the seniors so therefore MUST be gotten off our list" is ridiculous, and shows no actual strategic thinking.

Why use a debating style that effectively says anyone disagreeing with you is being ridiculous and showing no strategic thinking?

Opportunity cost is a key reason for not keeping low ceilinged ordinary players. By keeping known quantity mediocre players like Roberts, Jong and Campbell for too long and not turning our list over enough (lowest list turnover in the league recently) means we lose the opportunity to draft better players.

If had of delisted Cambell at the end of 16 we could have drafted Tim Kelly with P159 instead.

If we had of delisted Roberts at the end of 17, we could have drafted Brodie Mihocek with P200 instead.

Its not a matter of not rating or needing fringe players. Its a matter of turning over those fringe players once we know their ceiling is low for other fringe or role players with a perceived higher ceiling.

 

[Mofra]

The op's chequered history of trade rumours should be reason enough for you not to be "totally convinced." Thats all before you consider whether or not he fits a need (I think he does) or indeed how we would arrange a trade for a player that extended his contract by 2 years at the start of the season, even in this age of worthless contracts.

There were rumours at the start of the year he was falling out with Tex.

Regardless of who we get, I want at least some mature talent we can play forward of the ball. Our forwardline was a shambles in 2018, in part because it resembled a crèche. I'd imagine Atkins plays mid / high forward in the event we traded for him.

 

[Mofra]

Its not a matter of not rating or needing fringe players. Its a matter of turning over those fringe players once we know their ceiling is low for other fringe or role players with a perceived higher ceiling.

In Campbell's case, I like BTC but Bevo seemed to have no intention of playing him so it does seem his spot on the list was wasted.

We have traditionally done well with rookie / PSD picks so I do think every spot on our list is valuable. The very last spot available last year we gave to Gowers who won our goalkicking award and by god we need goalkickers on our list.

 

[mambavino]

You think it didn't already? There is plenty of behaviour that goes on at football clubs that is swept under the carpet until it has an effect on the group, including ours.

"The whole atmosphere at the club was different" - a staff member with almost daily contact with the group re: Stringer

I'm not quite sure what we're disagreeing on here? Perhaps I'm misreading your post, but I said after the sentence you quoted that I think some of the behavior is likely to have affected their own and others performances.

 

[McCraeBF]

Sorry just caught up with this but how is Atkins a player of need? Mid sized running and rebounding defenders who can push up to the wing isn’t something we’re short of.

His a wingman

 

[dergert]

Our first selection is a keep at all costs unless a player (better than Atkins) is readily available.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I think it would be easier for supporters to
accept losing popular players if the club was more
transparent. As rumors and mutterings become a cancer. Personally l was upset losing the package initially and probably still am. Then l see Gowers playing for the love of the game. l like all ,support the coach
but would like to see more transparency in player relationships. Instead of rumors and
mutterings.

Much as we'd love the full story about all the goings on within the club, unfortunately a chain of "he did this" followed by "I did not, they did that" would lead to endless distraction, media shitstorms, people taking sides, and any other detrimental outcome you could think of.

It's frustrating but we just have to live with the scraps people find out third-hand, or make up . The rumours and mutterings are just a by-product of the off-season. Once Round 1 2019 arrives we'll be happy again, especially if we start winning .

 

[Mofra]

I'm not quite sure what we're disagreeing on here? Perhaps I'm misreading your post, but I said after the sentence you quoted that I think some of the behavior is likely to have affected their own and others performances.

More the 'agree with what MD' said part (referring to his post) - we definitely have discussions about player behaviour all the time, every club has to sweep things under the carpet from time to time. It's not a case of trying to be 100% cleanskins as that post implied.
For something to actually become public knowledge a player needs to be either unlucky or screw up pretty badly.

There are whispers about Dahlhaus but he clearly trains hard and the work hard/train hard/party hard types I don't have a problem with, provided they're not malicious. When your own teammates call you out on social media (e.g. Stringer missing physio appointments) then that is a problem.

 

[Snarls Barkley]

Don’t mind Atkins. He reminds me a lot of Polec from a couple of years ago. Has got great speed (which I think is a need), he’s good on the outside (which think is a need) and he kicks goals (which I think is a need). Can really butcher the ball sometimes (which I don’t think is a need). Polec really raised his level into an elite wingman over the past two seasons though, got his possessions up to 25 a game this year and covers the ground defensively as well as anyone. Not sure Atkins gets to that level but he’s in the right age bracket and fills a few needs. Think we could do worse with the Dahlhaus compensation.

Interested in what you guys would think fair trade would be for Atkins.

Id say English is off the table? What about your first pick with Melbournes coming back with Atkins to have enough for young West.

Atkins is contracted til 2020 and came 9th in our BnF. His best is game winning but needed a good kick up the bum this year

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Can’t see us trading our first pick. As GWS and others have shown in the past few years, you can bundle up those picks quite easily to get someone in the 10-20 range. So any picks we have before West gets bid on is gold. Think it would be foolish on our part to trade down and end up with West and earlier picks later in the draft than get pick 7 and West.

 

[Philthy1]

Our first selection is a keep at all costs unless a player (better than Atkins) is readily available.

Like Lachie Whitfield


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[mambavino]

More the 'agree with what MD' said part (referring to his post) - we definitely have discussions about player behaviour all the time, every club has to sweep things under the carpet from time to time. It's not a case of trying to be 100% cleanskins as that post implied.
For something to actually become public knowledge a player needs to be either unlucky or screw up pretty badly.

There are whispers about Dahlhaus but he clearly trains hard and the work hard/train hard/party hard types I don't have a problem with, provided they're not malicious. When your own teammates call you out on social media (e.g. Stringer missing physio appointments) then that is a problem.

For the most part we are on the same page. Perhaps I wasn't specific enough when quoting which part of MD's post I was agreeing with.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

I do think every team needs a bit of cockiness and a couple of Pricks with white line fever. They tend to help the more introverted players walk a bit taller. Billy Gowers would be just about the only current player (maybe Libba) that I would put in this category.

Reckon Brad Lynch belongs in this category also.

 

[grassman75]

Was way back on pg 486. Skipped to this one and saw Dannnnnnnnnn posted we are still talking about Dahl compo etc.

Let me know when something good happens

I'll be over on the sausage fest thread being a general annoying pain in the arse to X_box_X

 

[AFDogs]

Reckon Brad Lynch belongs in this category also.

No, lol.