Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 3 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[Mojorisin]

I think he is better than Higgins at the same age. I can easily see him going well at another club. Eg. Dees. He is exactly the type they need in their midfield. Would be the best kick from the ones at the centre bounce.

Or essendon

 

[Mofra]

I think he is better than Higgins at the same age. I can easily see him going well at another club. Eg. Dees. He is exactly the type they need in their midfield. Would be the best kick from the ones at the centre bounce.

Not a bad suggestion but would McLean want to go there? They chased May and Lever on big coin, and just dumped Tomlinson who was their big FA signing over the off season. Then there's Preuss sitting in the ressies on average salary with zero prospect of becoming a best 22 player.

Melbourne is where promising footballers on the cusp of stardom go to become bog average.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

Walker has actually been fantastic this year. Become a very good 2nd key defender.

Is he under contract? Come cheap? He's the perfect age.

Or is your point more that he's an example of a late-blooming KPD?

 

[LittleG]

Or essendon

I can’t like a post promoting Essendon. I can agree but I can’t like anything about that mob.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

What pick do people think would make up the difference between McLean and Papley in a trade, hypothetically?

 

[flipper83]

It's a rotational issue.

We have two different 'game plans' (very simplified use of the term but bear with me). In some games, like last week against Carlton, we churn out the same midfield group over and over and over again. This is shown in centre bounce attendance statistics - last week, only five players played on the ball, disregarding Tim English. See below sourced from https://www.afl.com.au/news/465310/fantasy-secrets-to-success-every-club-s-cbas-for-r6):

Player	Fantasy	TOG	CBA
Tim English	81	96%	26
Bailey Smith	94	83%	23
Marcus Bontempelli	88	80%	18
Jack Macrae	89	78%	18
Tom Liberatore	71	79%	17
Toby McLean	54	83%	2

Our second mode is to rotate a little bit more, using players in other roles to pinch hit. See the statistics vs. North Melbourne in round 5:

Player	Fantasy	TOG	CBA
Tim English	99	97%	21
Jack Macrae	84	89%	20
Marcus Bontempelli	43	79%	16
Tom Liberatore	59	89%	14
Patrick Lipinski	72	84%	5
Rhylee West	45	85%	4
Bailey Smith	1	13%	3
Mitch Wallis	63	82%	1

Note that in both cases, we don't do enough to get McLean - a midfielder - minutes in the midfield. In the first scenario we trot out largely the same setup with minimal changes over and over and over again, which is not a bad move when they're playing well, but doesn't make much sense when you consider that several of those players can be valuable in other parts of the ground (e.g. Bont forward/defence, Liberatore high forward, Macrae and Smith wing). Keep in mind that, remarkably, against Sydney only four midfielders played on the ball at all for the entire game. This is unbelievable. You will see on the link I provided that this is very rare for other teams, even the better sides. You'll also see that our games tend to have more centre bounces as well, so this issue is amplified.

In the second scenario, we opt to play those who are very capable in other parts of the ground - Libba, Bont, Macrae again, Lipinski wing/forward, West forward, Smith wing, Wallis forward - on the ball and let McLean flounder in a foreign role. That just doesn't make sense and isn't playing to our strengths.

Overall, there is just not enough drive to play players like McLean in their best positions. He should be rotating through the middle as fresh legs, as he's our most capable mid outside of the Big Three/Four - who can all rest in other roles effectively. At the very least, McLean should be attending the around-the-ground stoppages as a midfielder to get his hands on the ball more, allowing us to use Bont etc as the next link in the chain. I don't have the stats to support it but my eyes tell me this doesn't happen. That's not good enough.

I don't pretend that it is this simple - I have no doubt there are systematic issues with this, and there is logic behind the way we set up and rotate. At some point though, if your system forces good players out of the team when you're not an amazing team in the first place, maybe your system is flawed.

Thanks for the reply, I had no idea our rotations were so fixed this year. It's hard to tell whats going on from the tv.

I feel like a couple of years ago it was the opposite and we had a revolving door of players going through the midfield. I wonder if it's a change in tactics or to do with our young midfield getting more conditioned to play out a game or the shorter quarters. I used to think that our rotations were too frequent and it was affecting players like Bont and Dunkley's ability to play as a mid and players like McClean and Dalhouse's ability to play as a forward.

It also meant that our forward half efficiency was low because we had less dedicated forwards.

I guess there are two sides to the argument. One argument might be that it is harder to develop the skills and mindset required to play as a forward or a midfielder if you are spending half your time in a different position and the other is you can stay fresher playing forward then get your hands on the ball through the midfield to build confidence and get into the flow of the game.

I can see the desire to have McClean play forward. He played forward predominantly as a junior and has the skill, composure and lateral movement to be effective there but he just seems to get lost.

I agree that bouncing in and out of the side is not good for his confidence and I think he is a confidence player. I don't think he should have been dropped but I guess the selection committee has metrics for selection that go beyond the stats that we get. I hope it's not just a case of Bev not really rating him.

 

[Mofra]

What pick do people think would make up the difference between McLean and Papley in a trade, hypothetically?

A first rounder

 

[Northernsoul74]

What pick do people think would make up the difference between McLean and Papley in a trade, hypothetically?

Sydney will want a decent first rounder for Papley. McLean doesn’t hold much value anymore.

 

[Mojorisin]

Thanks for the reply, I had no idea our rotations were so fixed this year. It's hard to tell whats going on from the tv.

I feel like a couple of years ago it was the opposite and we had a revolving door of players going through the midfield. I wonder if it's a change in tactics or to do with our young midfield getting more conditioned to play out a game or the shorter quarters. I used to think that our rotations were too frequent and it was affecting players like Bont and Dunkley's ability to play as a mid and players like McClean and Dalhouse's ability to play as a forward.

It also meant that our forward half efficiency was low because we had less dedicated forwards.

I guess there are two sides to the argument. One argument might be that it is harder to develop the skills and mindset required to play as a forward or a midfielder if you are spending half your time in a different position and the other is you can stay fresher playing forward then get your hands on the ball through the midfield to build confidence and get into the flow of the game.

I can see the desire to have McClean play forward. He played forward predominantly as a junior and has the skill, composure and lateral movement to be effective there but he just seems to get lost.

I agree that bouncing in and out of the side is not good for his confidence and I think he is a confidence player. I don't think he should have been dropped but I guess the selection committee has metrics for selection that go beyond the stats that we get. I hope it's not just a case of Bev not really rating him.

I think having a dedicated midfield team is a fantastic idea however when you let the left over mids flounder in the forward line that's when opportunities i50 get wasted. Bringing in dedicated fwds like weightman and hopefully giving cavarra a few game to see how his game translates to the top level when we actually have the entering his zone will work wonders

 

[Glaeken Oracle]

I'll be disappointed if McLean is not a Bulldog next year. Very disappointed. How would he rate defensively as a semi-permanent half back compared to say Daniel and Duryea, who have strengths and weaknesses of their own in that area?

 

[BEaston]

The rotational aspect is interesting. It's almost certain that Bev has gone a bit away from his flexibility mantra and instead tending towards playing guys in their most natural positions with more set structure/groups. I think this has led to an improved forward line especially, where rather than the gamut of rotating mids we've seen more specialist forwards brought in. This is something that a lot of people on here were crying out for at times. Unfortunately by transitioning to a system of more defined roles, with an unbalanced list not everyone is going to fit into their prime roles and some will miss.

Bevo knows McLean should be a best 22 player wherever he plays. He has all the tools to be a good forward, he is smart, knows where to run, is a good mark, can win his ball. At some point there has to be an onus on the player to adjust their game to get the best out of themselves for the team. Wallis was in exactly the same boat... wanting to play more time in the middle. I look at the adjustments he has made to his game to transition into a purely forward player and he has become a lock in that role, usually bobbing up for 1 or 2 goals a week. Unfortunately I just don't see the same application by Toby. The effort is lackluster when playing forward. I liked his application over the past 4 games in the defensive role, but big question marks on whether that's something Bev wants to continue moving forward. Maybe it's a resting thing, or maybe Bombers have no-one good enough for us to play that role this week. We'll see.

 

[charcoalchicken]

Can someone explain to me why we got rid of Jordan Roughead? For absolute peanuts too

 

[Northernsoul74]

Can someone explain to me why we got rid of Jordan Roughead? For absolute peanuts too

Because he wanted a change of scene.

 

[charcoalchicken]

Because he wanted a change of scene.

Gotta be a bit more to the story than just wanting a change of scenery

 

[True Dog]

The rotational aspect is interesting. It's almost certain that Bev has gone a bit away from his flexibility mantra and instead tending towards playing guys in their most natural positions with more set structure/groups. I think this has led to an improved forward line especially, where rather than the gamut of rotating mids we've seen more specialist forwards brought in. This is something that a lot of people on here were crying out for at times. Unfortunately by transitioning to a system of more defined roles, with an unbalanced list not everyone is going to fit into their prime roles and some will miss.

Bevo knows McLean should be a best 22 player wherever he plays. He has all the tools to be a good forward, he is smart, knows where to run, is a good mark, can win his ball. At some point there has to be an onus on the player to adjust their game to get the best out of themselves for the team. Wallis was in exactly the same boat... wanting to play more time in the middle. I look at the adjustments he has made to his game to transition into a purely forward player and he has become a lock in that role, usually bobbing up for 1 or 2 goals a week. Unfortunately I just don't see the same application by Toby. The effort is lackluster when playing forward. I liked his application over the past 4 games in the defensive role, but big question marks on whether that's something Bev wants to continue moving forward. Maybe it's a resting thing, or maybe Bombers have no-one good enough for us to play that role this week. We'll see.

Nailed it!!.....

 

[Northernsoul74]

Gotta be a bit more to the story than just wanting a change of scenery

Why? He wasn’t playing particularly well in his last season with us and he said himself he went stale. Whether playing him back would have helped who knows?

 

[flipper83]

Can someone explain to me why we got rid of Jordan Roughead? For absolute peanuts too

Also we brought in Trengrove who is a very similar player but a bit younger. Both too short to ruck and not mobile enough to suit Bevo's zone defense desires.

If he was still on our list he'd be stuck in the VFL like Trengrove has been for better or worse.

 

[dergert]

Roughead out and out spudded it up for us in his final two years. He was a liability. As a fan of the young man it was a shame to see unfold.

Im glad to see him do well now for collingwood, but we couldnt carry him on those performances.

 

[Sentinel]

Roughead out and out spudded it up for us in his final two years. He was a liability. As a fan of the young man it was a shame to see unfold.

Im glad to see him do well now for collingwood, but we couldnt carry him on those performances.

I agree, it was clear he was finished at the Dogs and needed a fresh start. If he didn't land at Collingwood he probably would have been out of the AFL system entirely.

I'm pleased he's doing well at the Pies.

 

[VitalDread]

I am back

When we talk about Roughead, he was our number 1 defender in a pretty avg defense set up
Now that he is at Pies he has Howe (pre injury) and Moore as his key defenders

Pies defense is far better setting up wise than we were so him having a second life is really great to see
I love Roughie and wish him all the best

 

[Munnez]

Think we are still a quality KPD short on the list.

Would love Denver Grainger-Barras in the draft however we’d be no chance unless we can move up above a likely bid for JUH.

Those two would set us up with bookends for the next 10+ years. So could be worth going into deficit if we could make it happen.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

Could throw up 2021 1st and see who bites Would mean going into deficit for 21 but to get 10 year book ends would be worth the punt

 

[VitalDread]

It will be interesting to see what the AFL does about delistings this year.
If the season is cut short, they might look at extending the list for one more season incase they are unable to draft or trade players in.

 

[Bevo Shreds]

My illustrious opinion is as follows.

Go after Isaac Smith and Zach Williams as free agents. Trade in Cedric Cox from Brisbane. Sign Jamaine Jones from WCE as a free agent.

Draft Jamarra and Raak. Not fussed about McPherson either way.

Get rid of Suckling. Trade Hunter. Vibe is all off. No lazy kicks. McLean may look elsewhere too, but better to keep him.

Naughton forward, Cordy back, Libba rotating through the middle, Vandermeer on the wing, Richards and Schache in the twos unless they become reliable.

Get some assistant coaches that aren't from the club.

Start molding the Whitten oval Bevo statue, number 3 on the way.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Philthy1]

I can’t like a post promoting Essendon. I can agree but I can’t like anything about that mob.

Yep. I live right in the heart of enemy territory and I can't stand them. I laugh at their haughty and disdainful attitude towards us when they resort to cheating to win. Outside of the Dick Reyonlds and Kevin Sheedy eras have more or less done nothing. Matthew Lloyd's attitude when speaking about us epitomises that mob.

I saw James Hird in Moonee Ponds Central last year promoting his chocolate and to see the old biddies fawning over him was truly vomit worthy. And he had to have some bouncers around him. I even think twice about spending money at Poyntons Nursery because of Hird.

 

[King Harold]

Can someone explain to me why we got rid of Jordan Roughead? For absolute peanuts too

Hurts to say it about a premiership hero , but his efforts post 2016 for us was pathetic.
if he wasn’t interested in giving his all for his team mates the jumper or US , then best thing was to F off.