Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 5 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

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doggies ftw said:
Couldnt disagree more, what it sends a bad message to players/teams to ask for fair compensation for a required player, but supposedly having a gun player request a trade to you but then offering rubbish is all well & good because that’s how negotiation works? I’m sorry but taking whatever you can get when the opposite party has just as much, probably less, leverage than we do is not good negotiation. If you think accepting less value than your asset is worth is “how negotiating works” I seriously hope you’re not in a role which requires negotiating 😂

Weve made it quite clear we’re firm but fair under Power and are willing to deal if the price is right, if players/clubs aren’t happy with that approach than they can kindly go * themselves.

Yes they have other deals to do, as do we - this is their high profile trade and first priority. If you don’t think trading out one of their few assets with any value before even coming close to terms with us is bad faith then I can’t help ya.

What leverage do Brisbane have? Why would we bend over and accept whatever scraps they offer up? Why on earth would we help a direct competitor just because it’s of course better for them to use 15 elsewhere and deal future picks to us. I just cannot understand this logic at all.

I guess we’ll see, and I agree Dunks won’t go PSD because Brissy won’t allow that to happen - there is zero chance we accept well unders in this trade
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The future second or whatever it was, was a media reported offer from Brisbane. It would be completely laughable, and unlikely, that Brisbane have actually offered that in actuality.
 
geoffjennings79 said:
Yeah, but Cooney's first year was significantly better than JHF's, and Cooney didn't sulk and exhibit poor body language. I rate him as a player, and may be a very good one when back in SA, but on output so far, hasn't done North any favours in terms of value. Will be the same as Dunkley and Lobb I reckon, deal will be done for somewhere in between. North seem to want players, but the only players Port can offer are older, although some are mid-20s. Some suggestion on Port board of Byrne-Jones, and a few were even happy for Wines as part of the trade!
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Cooney was not good at all in his 1st year he was only going at 12 disposals and a goal every 2 games which is solid sure but not anything better or worse than JHF has produced. Cooney also was overweight and a poor trainer which he has admitted to since. If you are targeting the #1 pick less than a year after he is drafted you will need to pay a significant fee
 

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geoffjennings79 said:
Yeah, but Cooney's first year was significantly better than JHF's, and Cooney didn't sulk and exhibit poor body language. I rate him as a player, and may be a very good one when back in SA, but on output so far, hasn't done North any favours in terms of value. Will be the same as Dunkley and Lobb I reckon, deal will be done for somewhere in between. North seem to want players, but the only players Port can offer are older, although some are mid-20s. Some suggestion on Port board of Byrne-Jones, and a few were even happy for Wines as part of the trade!
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On-field Cooney’s first season was no better. Probably worse. Took Cooney a fair chunk of the season to get fit and seemed like he was only getting games through the middle of the year because of where he was drafted.
 
Chalky White said:
Disagree. They will ask and get what they ask for.
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Like most negotiations, they will meet at a mid-point. Port posters seem happy with first this year, first next year and even the Amon compo. Unless a young Vic wants out at Port back to Vic, unlikely any of their top young players would be traded.
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
The posture posting this time of year is always a bit of a nightmare.

Dunkley is uncontracted. He has chosen a team. He is a good player. He is going to be traded, it is almost certainly going to be to Brisbane, and it will definitely be below his actual value.

There is nothing - nothing - to be gained by walking him to the PSD. You ruin player relationships, relationships with other clubs, and make players think twice about whether you've got their wellbeing in mind.

You don't "set an example" to teams or to players. The only message you send is that you are hard to deal with and will make life hard for any player who has a legitimate reason for wanting to find a new workplace.

For these and other reasons, it just doesn't happen. The only example I can think of off the top of my head that is remotely comparable is Jack Martin (who isn't really at Dunkley's level) - and, gee, it's hard to make an argument that getting nothing for him has worked well for GC, hey?

There is no way nothing is better than a first rounder or something. If you think we were s**t this year, wait until you take out our best and fairest and replace his list spot with a pick in the 80s.

Dunkley will be traded to Brisbane and he will go for less than he is truly worth - because that's the way negotiating works. They're starting at a future first, we're starting at two firsts. The goal is to bridge that gap, but that will take time. Brisbane will need to make other deals in the meantime, and yes, that might mean trading other picks that you might have your eye on. But that doesn't mean they're trying to * us over, and it doesn't mean they're not acting in good faith. It just means they have s**t to do and can't leave it all to the last day. They want Dunks too.

TL;DR can we spare the 10 pages of weird posturing that doesn't make sense and also doesn't change anything about the negotiations? There's so much anger here, FFS footy is meant to be fun.
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I think its worth asking, do we consider Brisbane a rival for the 2023 Flag?

If we do, it doesnt make sense to me that we improve a rival without receiving adequate compensation, its almost like a double negative: hampering ourselves (losing a quality player and not receiving anything that improves us in the short term) and improving a direct competitor.

The points raised about well-being considerations should actually fall on the acquiring team. They have made a big play to have him select Brisbane, so they should do what it takes to get the deal done.
 
Western Bulldogs list manager Sam Power has offered updates on several names that could arrive and depart Whitten Oval this trade period.

With big names touted as both ins and outs for the club, here’s what Power had to say on multiple trade prospects.


With Fremantle list manager David Wallis telling AFL Trade Radio that Rory Lobb would remain a Docker, Power says the Dogs will “keep having discussions” in hopes of facilitating a trade for the tall forward.

On Rory Lobb’s hopes to join the club

“Rory is clearly contracted, I understand Freo’s position there,” Power said on AFL Trade Radio.

“He’s indicated he’d like to come to us if a deal can be done.

“His partner moved to Victoria earlier in the year and he’s keen to get over to Victoria and be with her.

“We’ll keep having discussions with Freo, we’ll keep having chats where we can.

“I’m really sort of reluctant given his contract going into too many details, but he’s clearly showed he can play as a key forward and be a second ruck option as he did this year at Freo.

“Other than saying that, it’s something ideally if we’re able to work through something this trade period, hopefully, we’ll be able to comment more down the track but given he’s contracted.”

On acquiring Liam Jones as a free agent

“We’re anticipating hopefully in the next 24 hours whether that’s today or tomorrow getting paperwork prepared.

“Also, we have to weigh up our aim list, we’ve had some free agents throughout the year who have had different interests at times from clubs, so we’ll try and get as much information there as well before lodging paperwork.

“He’s really excited, he’s a fantastic guy Liam, he’s obviously played a lot of really good football … particularly the last few years at Carlton as a key defender.

“That’s an area of the ground we’ve been really keen to address and also what Liam offers on a personal level as well.

“Not only what Liam can bring on-field to our defensive stocks but also the maturity and experience he can bring to our group which is still relatively quite young.”

On potential free agency departure for Zaine Cordy

“We’ve been in constant dialogue with his management, he’s a free agent and he’s entitled to look around at what’s there.

“We’ll continue to have discussions across the trade period with his management to see where that lands.”


On Josh Dunkley’s trade request to Brisbane

“We’ve had some initial discussions with Brisbane at this stage.

“We really wanted to keep Josh and offered him a long-term contract that we thought was really compelling.

“He’s a fantastic player … best and fairest winner and premiership winner at the club but his desire is to get to Brisbane if he can.

“We’ll work in good faith with Brisbane to hopefully sort of reach an outcome.

“But with how highly we rate Josh and the player he is we expect compensation for what he displayed this year and across his career.”
 
geoffjennings79 said:
Like most negotiations, they will meet at a mid-point. Port posters seem happy with first this year, first next year and even the Amon compo. Unless a young Vic wants out at Port back to Vic, unlikely any of their top young players would be traded.
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Agree Butters won't be traded but Duursma or Bergman could quite easily.
 
Foxman98 said:
Cooney was not good at all in his 1st year he was only going at 12 disposals and a goal every 2 games which is solid sure but not anything better or worse than JHF has produced. Cooney also was overweight and a poor trainer which he has admitted to since. If you are targeting the #1 pick less than a year after he is drafted you will need to pay a significant fee
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TiAn_ said:
On-field Cooney’s first season was no better. Probably worse. Took Cooney a fair chunk of the season to get fit and seemed like he was only getting games through the middle of the year because of where he was drafted.
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Fair enough, but Cooney actually knuckled down and worked, and didn't sulk around the club, or confront senior players on-field, or make ambiguous comments about his loyalty. There were lots of posters on here worried about him being a flight-risk, but he never once gave that impression himself.

Update: I meant Cooney's first year was better overall - on-field and off in terms of attitude and buy-in, btw, should have made that clear, not just his on-field return.
 
BevoRambo said:
Surely Crouch - from the crows - would be ideal. Gut running ball magnet just like Macrae


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
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That doesn't kick the ball. A pure handballer similar to Mitchell.
He can get the pill for sure, but is slow and similar in many ways to Jacko and Libba.
No thanks
 

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geoffjennings79 said:
Fair enough, but Cooney actually knuckled down and worked, and didn't sulk around the club, or confront senior players on-field, or make ambiguous comments about his loyalty. There were lots of posters on here worried about him being a flight-risk, but he never once gave that impression himself.
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No denying that i'm just suggesting that if he wanted to leave after 1 year we would've wanted 2 1sts and a good player too so the North board aren't as far off as it seems
 
Dannnnnnnnnn said:
The posture posting this time of year is always a bit of a nightmare.

Dunkley is uncontracted. He has chosen a team. He is a good player. He is going to be traded, it is almost certainly going to be to Brisbane, and it will definitely be below his actual value.

There is nothing - nothing - to be gained by walking him to the PSD. You ruin player relationships, relationships with other clubs, and make players think twice about whether you've got their wellbeing in mind.

You don't "set an example" to teams or to players. The only message you send is that you are hard to deal with and will make life hard for any player who has a legitimate reason for wanting to find a new workplace.

For these and other reasons, it just doesn't happen. The only example I can think of off the top of my head that is remotely comparable is Jack Martin (who isn't really at Dunkley's level) - and, gee, it's hard to make an argument that getting nothing for him has worked well for GC, hey?

There is no way nothing is better than a first rounder or something. If you think we were s**t this year, wait until you take out our best and fairest and replace his list spot with a pick in the 80s.

Dunkley will be traded to Brisbane and he will go for less than he is truly worth - because that's the way negotiating works. They're starting at a future first, we're starting at two firsts. The goal is to bridge that gap, but that will take time. Brisbane will need to make other deals in the meantime, and yes, that might mean trading other picks that you might have your eye on. But that doesn't mean they're trying to * us over, and it doesn't mean they're not acting in good faith. It just means they have s**t to do and can't leave it all to the last day. They want Dunks too.

TL;DR can we spare the 10 pages of weird posturing that doesn't make sense and also doesn't change anything about the negotiations? There's so much anger here, FFS footy is meant to be fun.
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Whilst I agree with the above, the game and the trading is changing. You need to be in the ear of a good young player at every club. So when Dunkley announces I'm going to Brisbane, we counter and say o.k, yet Cam Rayner (just an example) is coming to the dogs. Fight fire with fire! We did it with the Griffen / Boyd trade and we should be looking to do it again.
 
Foxman98 said:
It'll be their starting offer
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The issue is that we’ve said we want two first rounders and they’ve offered one. So in their minds they’ll suggest that a first and a second rounder is a fair compromise.

No one here would be happy with a F1 and a mediocre second rounder for Dunkley. Power is going to have to be at his best and work super hard for this one.
 
Foxman98 said:
No denying that i'm just suggesting that if he wanted to leave after 1 year we would've wanted 2 1sts and a good player too so the North board aren't as far off as it seems
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Don't disagree in principle, but this was the era we traded the Nathan Brown capital #6 for Veal and to send Rawlings to PSD as some sort of goal-kicking saviour, and over-paid for both Street (who was a potential de-list by Cats) and Koops. So our list management in that regard at the time was poor. But that's history anyway.
 
LondonBulldog said:
Gee I would have loved Ollie Henry to nominate the Bulldogs. We could have made him into an intercepting defender just like his brother. Most who know the boys and I spoken to a few down my way say the Ollie will be the better player and was as a junior. Nominated Geelong though!
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More than happy to be among those who just languish behind a queue of half a dozen down at Geelong rather than get a regular spot elsewhere. Maybe fill in the days at the farm or doing some work for Cotton On or one of the pubs down there?
 
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doggies ftw said:
Couldnt disagree more, what it sends a bad message to players/teams to ask for fair compensation for a required player, but supposedly having a gun player request a trade to you but then offering rubbish is all well & good because that’s how negotiation works? I’m sorry but taking whatever you can get when the opposite party has just as much, probably less, leverage than we do is not good negotiation. If you think accepting less value than your asset is worth is “how negotiating works” I seriously hope you’re not in a role which requires negotiating 😂

Weve made it quite clear we’re firm but fair under Power and are willing to deal if the price is right, if players/clubs aren’t happy with that approach than they can kindly go * themselves.

Yes they have other deals to do, as do we - this is their high profile trade and first priority. If you don’t think trading out one of their few assets with any value before even coming close to terms with us is bad faith then I can’t help ya.

What leverage do Brisbane have? Why would we bend over and accept whatever scraps they offer up? Why on earth would we help a direct competitor just because it’s of course better for them to use 15 elsewhere and deal future picks to us. I just cannot understand this logic at all.

I guess we’ll see, and I agree Dunks won’t go PSD because Brissy won’t allow that to happen - but there is zero chance we accept well unders in this trade
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You have just proven my point exactly. So much hostility and anger about something that hasn't happened, won't happen, nobody is even suggesting, and there's no evidence to support that it is happening. Power has been very strong in his comments so far - he's handling it the right way. Why the angst?

Nowhere did I say we should accept well unders, or accept shit. I am not the one doing the negotiating so I am not speaking about how to approach the negotiation - I thought that would be obvious. I am talking about the end result. The end result will be one of compromisation by one or both parties. We hope it's not just us compromising, as do Brisbane fans, but most likely, both parties will in the end. 7 & 15 for an uncontracted player to a team is fantasy land stuff and Power can't be held to that standard.

In terms of the pick 15 stuff, let's reverse this. Let's say it's 2021 and we have Darcy, who we need points for. We also have an uncontracted player who has wanted to come to us, and the other team are asking for two first rounders. We are trying to negotiate with them while also trying to make sure we can pick Darcy. Knowing that the player trade is likely to take some time to work through - do you think we should hold off doing trades to ensure we can get Darcy until the other trade is done? What happens if we can't agree until 1 min before the deadline?

Dude, list managers don't lock themselves in an office with one other list manager for 24 hours until the deal is done. They explore every possible option to find the best one they can. Sometimes that requires the trading of assets that you had maybe discussed at some stage with another club.

Honestly, I've just clicked through pages and pages of abuse directed at other teams, players, other members, and even our own ****ing staff. It's out of control and it makes this place completely unenjoyable. Why does everything need to be taken personally? Why the aggression? Jesus, we all want us to be good. We have the same goal.
 
geoffjennings79 said:
Like most negotiations, they will meet at a mid-point. Port posters seem happy with first this year, first next year and even the Amon compo. Unless a young Vic wants out at Port back to Vic, unlikely any of their top young players would be traded.
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Adelaide offered pick 4, pick 5 and pick 14 for pick one last year. That will have to be North Melbournes starting point as that’s what they rejected to draft Horne-Francis….
 
weltschmerz said:
We do have the weapon of "hmm that Jaspa Fletcher looks like a player, just made AA, we may want to bid on him at pick 11".
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You could do that. But with the limited points Brisbane have available, They may not match at that early. So you would want to be sure you rate him that highly otherwise you could risk missing out on the player you actually want
 
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