tigs2010
Pick 1...
Weren't we linked to Isak back in 2022 or whatever it was? We'd be flying if we had him.
Up the Arse! Goons Thread
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Yes correct. Should’ve been all over him then.
A forward of that calibre is the difference between coming close to winning stuff or actually winning stuff.
A forward of that calibre is the difference between coming close to winning stuff or actually winning stuff.
For the 7th or 8th time this season, as Arsenal chase a goal in the second half, I wonder to myself what the **** was the point of signing Sterling when Arteta refuses to utilise him?
Arsenal could keep playing here for another hour post match and I’d question whether the ball would end up in the back of the net.
Classic smash and grab from Newcastle. Well played.
This is a game I got accustomed to watching in the latter Wenger years. Dominant at times, shot after shot, chance after chance fluffed, glaringly obvious that 1-2 players lacking in the team to win and nothing was ever really done about it.
Classic smash and grab from Newcastle. Well played.
This is a game I got accustomed to watching in the latter Wenger years. Dominant at times, shot after shot, chance after chance fluffed, glaringly obvious that 1-2 players lacking in the team to win and nothing was ever really done about it.
tigs2010
Pick 1...
I assume he doesn't utilise him because Arteta wants us to score a goal.
Terrible signing
Happy I didn’t bother watching that this morning
Gold
The way he talks about, comments like “it’s my fault he doesn’t play more minutes, he’s training well” etc etc is so reminiscent of the way he used to talk about ESR and Nketiah. And then shipped them off the next summer.
It’s baffling why this continues to happen. And because Arsenal have loaned in Neto and Sterling, no additional loan signing can happen from the PL this January. You’re only allowed two within the PL. So it’s bizarre to fill that spot in the squad and then continue refuse to make use.
Season just about cooked.
Eh, I think people, especially Arsenal fans, are getting sucked into the whole "Dark-Arts, Champagne Stoke, boring football" pessimistic view around the team currently. Reading the fan forums, people are bemoaning that we are currently playing anti-Arsenal; there's no Wengerball, no sexy play, no flair etc. etc. and we should be looking to go back to that attacking mindset.
Fans are quick to remember the sexy 4-0, 5-0 wins over teams like Bradford, Watford, Southampton etc. that kind of football gave us. They are also quick to forget the 4-0, 6-0, 5-0 losses against Chelsea, Man United, Liverpool, Barcelona, Bayern Munich that was also a result of that kind of football.
"1-0 to the Arsenal" is the famous chant for the club... it didn't come about because of attacking football. It was because of an incredible defensive, highly disciplined mindset ingrained in the team by George Graham in the late 80's/90's, basically surviving off Ian Wright's brilliance for winning goals.
Wenger inherited a team that had a decade of being highly drilled defensive masters; Adams, Dixon, Keown, Winterburn, Linigan, Seaman. Wenger's greatest achievement was being able to add amazing players to complement that defensive talent.....Vieira, Petit, Overmars, Bergkamp, Henry, Pires, Ljunberg, Fabregas etc. He was able to balance both the attack and defense at the same time, something that only Man United were consistently equally capable of doing at the time.
But Wenger also pushed the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. For a decade Arsenal basically had no defense, only offence. How many games did we sit through knowing that basically any decent attack by even the very worse teams in the premier league would result in a goal against us? How often did it look like that the defense had no clue how to defend any type of set piece/attack or watch players like Peter Crouch bully our Centre backs at will?
Arsenal were now known as "soft" and not willing to get stuck in or dig deep and get dirty to win games when the pretty football wasn't delivering. Arsenal couldn't "win ugly" and always had to "try to walk the ball into the net".
Arteta has basically had to re-build the defensive mindset that previously existed but had eroded after decades of neglect. He's added back that discipline and work ethic to make us one of the toughest teams in the league to play against.
We haven't become "Dark Arts FC", opposition fans are just finally coming around to understanding that this Arsenal team is no longer "soft" and will do exactly what is needed to win, even if its ugly. And yes, it has been ugly.
What Arteta hasn't been able to do just yet is add the attacking balance that Wenger was able to. Trossard isn't good enough to be more than a squad player, Martinelli isn't good enough to be in the starting 11 on form, Havertz isn't good enough to be a genuine world-class #10. Jesus isn't good enough to be in the starting 11 on form. Saka is the only player currently we have that is on the cusp of being a genuine world-class player (if he isn't already).
But the environment Arteta is operating in is vastly different to the one Wenger was in. There are no more Anelka's hiding in plain sight to be plucked from PSG for 700k. Every talented youth prospect is locked away and now costs €50m-€70m-€90m after 20 Under 19 games. Bloated oligarch teams are hoovering up all the talent on obscene wages. Arsenal are 2nd tier at the top tier of football transfers when it comes to talent acquisition. Even in just the Premier League the competition for talent is ferocious; Newcastle, Man City, Chelsea all have the potential to outspend Arsenal on every metric....Liverpool, Man United and even Tottenham and West Ham on the same level.
The Premier League itself is a much, much, much more competitive league with every team maximizing their resources and technical/tactical organizational efforts that were not seen 20 years ago.
Fans especially need to stop looking back with the rose-tinted glasses of the past and understand that its just different now. That doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Has Arteta got it wrong this season? Yes. in places. Has it been as disastrous as pundits and "fans" are making it out to be? No.
Yes, certain aspects of his management deserve criticism and every manager should be called out when they make mistakes. I think in games this season he has been too pragmatic and defensive minded with his selections. But how much of this tactical tinkering has occurred due to the team being disrupted due to injuries and player form? Last season showed Arsenal, under Arteta, could balance both attack and defense. That doesn't just disappear overnight.
I also think the club as a whole has underperformed in the transfer market but that's a much more nuanced discussion.
The core of the team is there, the core of the tactics are there. Last night we lost to Newcastle, but watching the game its not as though we couldn't have won it....again our attacking players were found not to be good enough. The difference between the teams was one in-form borderline world class forward performing and taking his chances vs Havertz and Martinelli both missing theirs again.
Unfortunately, forwards are the most expensive part of the team to change and genuine match-winning talents (like Isak) are all priced that way.
I'm probably in the minority, but I'm perfectly happy with the way Arteta has the club positioned for the future. The club now needs to rely a little on luck, good fortune with the academy, investment and being incredibly aware of the market to get the players we need to take the club to the next level.
I'd rather keep backing a manager with a clear plan (that is almost working) for a few more years, than have a revolving door of "could possibly be better" unknown managers trying every 2 years like a certain other London club.
Fans are quick to remember the sexy 4-0, 5-0 wins over teams like Bradford, Watford, Southampton etc. that kind of football gave us. They are also quick to forget the 4-0, 6-0, 5-0 losses against Chelsea, Man United, Liverpool, Barcelona, Bayern Munich that was also a result of that kind of football.
"1-0 to the Arsenal" is the famous chant for the club... it didn't come about because of attacking football. It was because of an incredible defensive, highly disciplined mindset ingrained in the team by George Graham in the late 80's/90's, basically surviving off Ian Wright's brilliance for winning goals.
Wenger inherited a team that had a decade of being highly drilled defensive masters; Adams, Dixon, Keown, Winterburn, Linigan, Seaman. Wenger's greatest achievement was being able to add amazing players to complement that defensive talent.....Vieira, Petit, Overmars, Bergkamp, Henry, Pires, Ljunberg, Fabregas etc. He was able to balance both the attack and defense at the same time, something that only Man United were consistently equally capable of doing at the time.
But Wenger also pushed the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. For a decade Arsenal basically had no defense, only offence. How many games did we sit through knowing that basically any decent attack by even the very worse teams in the premier league would result in a goal against us? How often did it look like that the defense had no clue how to defend any type of set piece/attack or watch players like Peter Crouch bully our Centre backs at will?
Arsenal were now known as "soft" and not willing to get stuck in or dig deep and get dirty to win games when the pretty football wasn't delivering. Arsenal couldn't "win ugly" and always had to "try to walk the ball into the net".
Arteta has basically had to re-build the defensive mindset that previously existed but had eroded after decades of neglect. He's added back that discipline and work ethic to make us one of the toughest teams in the league to play against.
We haven't become "Dark Arts FC", opposition fans are just finally coming around to understanding that this Arsenal team is no longer "soft" and will do exactly what is needed to win, even if its ugly. And yes, it has been ugly.
What Arteta hasn't been able to do just yet is add the attacking balance that Wenger was able to. Trossard isn't good enough to be more than a squad player, Martinelli isn't good enough to be in the starting 11 on form, Havertz isn't good enough to be a genuine world-class #10. Jesus isn't good enough to be in the starting 11 on form. Saka is the only player currently we have that is on the cusp of being a genuine world-class player (if he isn't already).
But the environment Arteta is operating in is vastly different to the one Wenger was in. There are no more Anelka's hiding in plain sight to be plucked from PSG for 700k. Every talented youth prospect is locked away and now costs €50m-€70m-€90m after 20 Under 19 games. Bloated oligarch teams are hoovering up all the talent on obscene wages. Arsenal are 2nd tier at the top tier of football transfers when it comes to talent acquisition. Even in just the Premier League the competition for talent is ferocious; Newcastle, Man City, Chelsea all have the potential to outspend Arsenal on every metric....Liverpool, Man United and even Tottenham and West Ham on the same level.
The Premier League itself is a much, much, much more competitive league with every team maximizing their resources and technical/tactical organizational efforts that were not seen 20 years ago.
Fans especially need to stop looking back with the rose-tinted glasses of the past and understand that its just different now. That doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Has Arteta got it wrong this season? Yes. in places. Has it been as disastrous as pundits and "fans" are making it out to be? No.
Yes, certain aspects of his management deserve criticism and every manager should be called out when they make mistakes. I think in games this season he has been too pragmatic and defensive minded with his selections. But how much of this tactical tinkering has occurred due to the team being disrupted due to injuries and player form? Last season showed Arsenal, under Arteta, could balance both attack and defense. That doesn't just disappear overnight.
I also think the club as a whole has underperformed in the transfer market but that's a much more nuanced discussion.
The core of the team is there, the core of the tactics are there. Last night we lost to Newcastle, but watching the game its not as though we couldn't have won it....again our attacking players were found not to be good enough. The difference between the teams was one in-form borderline world class forward performing and taking his chances vs Havertz and Martinelli both missing theirs again.
Unfortunately, forwards are the most expensive part of the team to change and genuine match-winning talents (like Isak) are all priced that way.
I'm probably in the minority, but I'm perfectly happy with the way Arteta has the club positioned for the future. The club now needs to rely a little on luck, good fortune with the academy, investment and being incredibly aware of the market to get the players we need to take the club to the next level.
I'd rather keep backing a manager with a clear plan (that is almost working) for a few more years, than have a revolving door of "could possibly be better" unknown managers trying every 2 years like a certain other London club.
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Excellent post Shoei.
I think Arteta's pragmatism and stubborn team selections is what people take umbrage with. We aren't ruthless like we were the last two seasons. We invite the pressure, rather than going for the kill.
His squad management has been sub par at best. Nobody could have foreseen the Odegaard injury, but letting ESR was a bad decision, as well as Vieira (even though he is not good enough).
I think Arteta's pragmatism and stubborn team selections is what people take umbrage with. We aren't ruthless like we were the last two seasons. We invite the pressure, rather than going for the kill.
His squad management has been sub par at best. Nobody could have foreseen the Odegaard injury, but letting ESR was a bad decision, as well as Vieira (even though he is not good enough).
Yea. Seems as though the players are content to rely on the defenders to save us.
The last two games especially have seen us lacking much forward threat
I actually think moving on ESR and Vieira (in addition to Nelson and Nketiah) was the correct decision. They wanted to move and play regularly which is fair enough at their age. And their values would only diminish further Arteta sits them out, so there was also considerable financial gains with their outgoings as well.
The main issue became in not adequately addressing that area of the pitch with their departures. We excited 4 forwards/attacking mids. And incoming, we added (another) left back in Calafiori and a central midfielder/left 8 in Merino. Whilst promoting Nwaneri to the first team. And a last minute desperate loan of Sterling.
Those additions are fine in isolation, however it wasn’t sufficient. We left ourselves considerably short and rolled the dice on “what happens if we get injuries/absences in a very congested season?”. Murphys law as they say. Unfortunately that’s what has happened.
I remember the sentiment post Bayern elimination, in chasing a goal late at the Allianz we brought on Nketiah (with respect to him, you’re not advancing in the champions league knock out stages with that substitution). The feeling was that Arsenal are now very aware of the need for more firepower in the attacking third of the pitch that makes all the difference now that were repositioned for a crack at major trophies. And the summer window is the prime time to (finally) make that signing happen after consecutive windows trying and failing (Raphinha, Mudryk, Neto etc).
Something has clearly happened behind the scenes that may come out one day or perhaps not at all. My guess watching on from afar is:
- KSE after years of heavy investment wanted to now see some financial prudence and weren’t keen to sanction new signings until they were certain of some balancing in the squad. ie, one out one in.
- Sesko was seen as a market opportunity and the first player linked to. He was a different and unique profile that could be a game changer in certain situations.
- Arsenal have been notoriously poor sellers. And left considerable money on the table to offset spending and recoup academy players to reinvest into the squad. Something other have done well yet we haven’t quite. Balogun and Willock were successful examples, however AMN walking on a free was very poorly received by the owners.
- Financial commitments were very tight due to PSR and other regulatory issues. Sesko wanted his future sorted prior to the Euros in June and wanted to come. However as we saw with the structure of the Raya transaction, we couldn’t commit to that before end of FYE 2024. And our first obligation in July 2024, the new financial year, was to make Raya permanent (hence the finalisation of £27m to Brentford). Unfortunately; this timing issue meant the Sesko opportunity came and went.
- Arteta then wanted Nico Williams from Spain. His release clause from memory is approx €60m and comes with significant wages. Whilst the club was supportive of such a move, going back to the above points about one out one in, they wanted to first secure exits of surplus players (Nketiah, ESR etc) before sanctioning in further spending.
- This kind of came to a head with Calafiori. I don’t believe Edu was keen. Or Richard Garlick. “Another fullback Mikel??” was probably the rhetoric. It seemed that Arteta fought to convince them and in particular Josh and Tim Lewis that he was the profile needed, along with Merino, to advance the team this season. Clearly Arteta has the relationship with the owners and senior management, however this one took some serious effort to get over the line.
- I think that favour then ran out with the pursuit of Joan Garcia. €30m for a “back up” keeper, off the back of the £27m then finalised for Raya, in the one transfer window, was (quite rightly) not approved by the club and instead Edu went and made Neto happen. From what I read and heard, it was Edu on the phone first to his compatriot to make this happen initially. Read into that what you will, because that’s highly unusual as it’s most often Arteta himself doing that where possible. Neto hasn’t played a minute so far (he’s cup tied albeit, and thankfully Raya has been mostly fit).
- Arteta has repeatedly shown he wants to sign that elusive forward to add more firepower. But one reason or another it just hasn’t happened yet. His comments last week I felt were quite pointed (he referred to Arsenal as having a very thin squad). I found that baffling really how and why this has been allowed to happen, when it’s fairly evident looking at the fixture list, contending on 4 competitions, what did they think was going to happen?
For the first time in a long time, the synchronous relationship between Arteta, the sporting director, club leaders and the owners, it just hasn’t been quite right after many consecutive years of almost flawless in that regard. This stuff matters. At this level; with the margins this fine, it’s an absolutely vital ingredient in coming close or actually winning shit.
Salah, Gakpo and Diaz have been electric for Liverpool - how many games have they played where at least 2 of the 3 were available for selection?
Elanga, Wood and Gibbs-White have been electric for Forest. How many games have at least 2 of the 3 been available for selection?
Isak and Gordon have been terrific this season... you get my drift?
And how many games have Saka, Odegaard and Havertz been on the pitch together at the same time?
I think it is remarkable we're second in the PL and still fighting in four competitions. That to me shows just how well Arteta has done. Sometimes you have to accept that the rub of the green isn't going your way.
Elanga, Wood and Gibbs-White have been electric for Forest. How many games have at least 2 of the 3 been available for selection?
Isak and Gordon have been terrific this season... you get my drift?
And how many games have Saka, Odegaard and Havertz been on the pitch together at the same time?
I think it is remarkable we're second in the PL and still fighting in four competitions. That to me shows just how well Arteta has done. Sometimes you have to accept that the rub of the green isn't going your way.
Valid points.
But people also need to remember, this is Arteta's first time managing.
Now remember, he joined a club that was, I don't think it's any hyperbole to say, in basic disarray. Poor players, poor attitudes (both players and fans), poor management direction/decisions but also a club with a massive reputation and expectations.
Arteta has had to navigate all of that as a rookie manager, and he's bloody well done a great job if you look at where we came from to where we are now.
Just look at the club's final standing to have an idea of the impact. In the last 20 years, Arsenal have finished 2nd in the league just 4 times, 04/05, 15/16 both under Wenger......and 22/23 and 23/24 both under Arteta, in his first 5 seasons as a manager.
Arteta's two 2nd place finishes included a higher final points tally than 20/22 of Wenger's. Last seasons 89 points eclipses all of them except for the 03/04 Unbeaten season total of 90 points, and that Arsenal team was loaded with bonafied world class talents all over the pitch. Arteta's points total of 89 would have won the league in 18/32 previous seasons.
Arteta's team also scored more goals and had a better goals F/A than ANY of Wenger's teams.
Now have a look at all of the managers that have won a Premier League title in terms of experience;
Ferguson - 2,000+ games
Wenger - 1,700+ games
Pellegrini - 1,500+ games
Ranieri - 1,400+ games
Ancelotti - 1,300+ games
Mourinho - 1,000+ games
Klopp - 1,000+ games
Mancini - 800+ games
Pep - 600+ games
Conte - 600+ games
Dalglish - 600+ games
Arteta has 262 games as a manager, at any level, period. Wenger had over 500+ games as a top flight manager before joining Arsenal. And yes, I'm aware that Slot will probably win the league with similar games managed to Arteta if Liverpool get up this year, but he's also inhereted a vastly better, more coherent team than Arteta did in his first few seasons.
Arteta has come within a bee's dick of winning a league title as a manager, in arguably the most competitve league in the world, with less than a quarter of the managerial experience of some of the greatest managers in history.
And he's basically learning on the job, still trying to find his management style and direction.
Yes, he's going to get tactics wrong. Yes, he's going to be stubborn. Yes, he's to make poor squad selections. Yes, he's going to put his faith in the wrong players. But that's all the things you learn, adapt and change with experience.
If Arteta can achieve what he has based on the above in 5 years, what could he do with another 5?
Who knows?
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Jorginho offered to Palmeiras apparently.
For now or in the summer? The squad currently is low on numbers available, I think he’s essential to retain as a senior midfielder in the squad.
I heard Zinchenko linked with Inter, now that one makes much more sense. With 22 left backs at the club and the emergence of MLS, that’s a transaction I can see happening this window.
Maybe they can give us Lauturo in return.
