Updated VFL/AFL premiership tally

[Dan26]

League: VFL/AFL

• Competition start date: 1897
• Last year completed 2024
• Seasons completed 128

Joined 1897: Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon, St.Kilda, Geelong, Melbourne, South Melbourne, Fitzroy
Joined 1908: Richmond, University
Left competition 1914: University
Joined 1925: Hawthorn, Nth.Melb, Western Bulldogs
Joined 1987: West Coast, Brisbane Bears
Joined 1991: Adelaide
Joined 1995: Fremantle
Left competition 1996: Fitzroy, Brisbane Bears
Joined 1997: Brisbane Lions, Port Adelaide
Joined 2011: Gold Coast
Joined 2012: GWS Giants


Order of premiership success (as a percentage of time in the competition)
1. Brisbane Lions 4 (28 years).............one every 7.0 years
2. Hawthorn 13 (100 years)................one every 7.69 years
3. Essendon 16 (126 years)................ one every 7.88 years
4. Collingwood 16 (128 years)...................one every 8.0 years
5. Carlton 16 (128 years)...................one every 8.0 years
6. Richmond 13 (117 years).................one every 9.0 years
7. West Coast 4 (38 years)................one every 9.5 years
8. Melbourne 13 (125 years)...............one every 9.61 years
9. Geelong 10 (125 years)...................one every 12.5 years
10. Fitzroy 8 (100 years 1897-1996)....one every 12.5 years
11. Adelaide 2 (34 years).....................one every 17 years
12. North Melbourne 4 (100 years).................one every 25 years
13. Sydney/Sth.Melb 5 (127 years).......one every 25.4 years
14. Port Adelaide 1 (28 years)...............one every 28 years
15. Western Bulldogs 2 (100 years)........one every 50 years
16. St.Kilda 1 (126 years)...................one every 126 years
17. University 0 (7 years 1908-14)..............NEVER WON
18. Brisbane Bears 0 (10 years 1987-1996).... NEVER WON
19. GWS Giants 0 (13 years)........................NEVER WON
20. Gold Coast 0 (14 years)........................NEVER WON
21. Fremantle 0 (30 years)....... ..................NEVER WON

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The Brisbane Bears are the Brisbane Lions.

Knocks them well down the order.

You didn’t reset any other clubs when they changed nicknames or colours.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

By the same token that Sydney and South are joined so should Fitzroy and Brisbane.
They still trade under those names

Current details for ABN 43 054 263 473 | ABN Lookup

abr.business.gov.au

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Interesting, those recent 3 flags by the Tigers took them from above Geelong to further above Geelong.

 

[Roylion]

By the same token that Sydney and South are joined so should Fitzroy and Brisbane.
They still trade under those names

Current details for ABN 43 054 263 473 | ABN Lookup

abr.business.gov.au

Fitzroy and the Brisbane Bears / Lions are two different clubs.

Name:	BRISBANE BEARS-FITZROY FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
ACN:	054 263 473
ABN:	43 054 263 473 (External Link)
Registration date:	16/12/1991
Next review date:	16/12/2023
Former name(s):	BRISBANE BEARS FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED, NEW BEARS LIMITED
Status:	Registered
Type:	Australian Public Company, Limited By Guarantee
Locality of registered office:	SPRINGFIELD CENTRAL QLD 4300
Regulator:	Australian Securities & Investments Commission

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Fitzroy and the Brisbane Bears / Lions are two different clubs.

Were.

I would argue two clubs that merge become 1 club.

 

[Cyclops]

Great thread Dan, I agree there might be some tweaking needed with your definitions but this is meat and potatoes footy analysis and provokes a lot of great ideas.

You (or other posters less lazy than me) could use this as a basis for further analysis, you could add weighting for size of comp, tampering (eg draft, fs, academies, COLA etc) lms travelled per flag etc.

Were.

I would argue two clubs that merge become 1 club.

You'd be correct. However, Brisbane did not merge with Fitzroy.

You gon get Roylion 'd.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Great thread Dan, I agree there might be some tweaking needed with your definitions but this is meat and potatoes footy analysis and provokes a lot of great ideas.

You (or other posters less lazy than me) could use this as a basis for further analysis, you could add weighting for size of comp, tampering (eg draft, fs, academies, COLA etc) lms travelled per flag etc.


You'd be correct. However, Brisbane did not merge with Fitzroy.

You gon get Roylion 'd.

Lions no. But the bears did. There's even an extremely long article on the lion's website that goes through every last detail, including the North Melbourne attempt.

 

[Roylion]

Were.

I would argue two clubs that merge become 1 club.

We've gone through this ad nauseum. Brisbane rebranded from the Bears to the Lions at the end of 1996. Therefore the Brisbane Lions Football Club have 4 premierships (2001, 2002, 2003, 2024). Fitzroy have eight VFL-AFL premierships (1898, 1899, 1904, 1905, 1913, 1916, 1922, 1944)

 

[Roylion]

Lions no. But the bears did. There's even an extremely long article on the lion's website that goes through every last detail, including the North Melbourne attempt.

I'm a current shareholder of the Fitzroy Football Club and have been since the 80s. The club still exists in its own right, fully independent of the Brisbane Bears/Lions.

 

[Roylion]

You'd be correct. However, Brisbane did not merge with Fitzroy.

You gon get Roylion 'd.

Nearly 30 years after the event there is still a misconception about what actually happened in 1996. AFL marketing has been very effective.

 

[Cyclops]

Nearly 30 years after the event there is still a misconception about what actually happened in 1996. AFL marketing has been very effective.

Yep, you're doing your bit.

Hope Dan tidies that bit up because its a riipping idea.

Hawks can make a case for their excellent strike rate. Ditto Essendon over the truly long haul (I rate this).

There's aspects like "firemen and policeman's flags" which was a derogatory term thrown at Melbourne Richmond and Essendon for winning some flags during WWII (I think this is unfair, Richmond didn't recruit cops to avoid conscription), and the extremely corrupt country zones era 1960's-1980's (where Carlton wangled extremely favourable zones, and then refused to rotate once it became clear they hit the jackpot): Hawthorn and St Kilda did well too, although their success seems to have been incidental to Sir Kenneth Luke's amazing rort.

I'd argue #VICBIAS can be thrown in, how hard was it for Brisbane to succeed, even when they had a mini-COLA? I think Sydney, despite having loads of help, still faces a massive hurdle to win a flag, and for Port, Freo etc its many times harder.

 

[Tarkyn_24]

Reckon you need to somehow integrate the number of sides competing in said years to make this more meaningful. Fitzroy claiming a wartime flag by winning a round robin from last is not as meritorious as modern day flags.

 

[Dan26]

The Brisbane Bears are the Brisbane Lions.

Knocks them well down the order.

You didn’t reset any other clubs when they changed nicknames or colours.

I go by AFL Tables where the three of them (Fitz, BB, BL are three different clubs).

AFL Tables

AFL Tables - Australian Rules Stats & Tables

afltables.com

I get the official paperwork thing. I get the legal thing. I get the "technically it's not a merger thing". I get all that. But everyone treats it as a merger where there are three separate clubs, in terms of the way the club was branded so we are treating the Brissy Lions as a club which began after a "merger" in 1997 like "AFL tables" do. If the Brisbane Lions and Bears are the same club (as treated by the fans, not in a legal sense) then there is no reason for any Fitzroy supporters to support them. But they do support them, because it is treated by all casual fans for all practical purposed as a merger, even if it technically wasn't.

 

[Roylion]

I go by AFL Tables where the three of them (Fitz, BB, BL are three different clubs).

AFL Tables

AFL Tables - Australian Rules Stats & Tables

afltables.com

Fan site.

But everyone treats it as a merger where there are three separate clubs, in terms of the way the club was branded

Everyone does not treat it as that. Even the AFL combines the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions records together.

A letter I received some time ago.

"We acknowledge receipt of your letter of 5th July, 2001 and wish to advise the following.

The question of the statistical and historical records of the Fitzroy Football Club, the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions has been the subject of considerable discussion between our Football Operations department and our Historian and Statistician.

We have resolved the following

1 . For players who played for Fitzroy or the Brisbane Bears, their records were ruled off as at October 31, 1996.

2. For players who played for the Brisbane Bears/Brisbane Lions, for example, Marcus Ashcroft, their playing records were combined based on the principle of continuous service. This approach has been strongly supported by various senior media commentators.

3. Players who played for Fitzroy and the Brisbane Bears/Brisbane Lions should not have their playing records combined.

4. Using Alastair Lynch as an example and there are others including Chris Johnson and Martin Pike who played for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears, we did not believe it was logical to have those games for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears counted as part of the combined total of games for the Brisbane Lions.

5. Given that the Brisbane Lions' position has been that the playing records of players who represented the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions should be continuous, we also felt it was logical that the match records of the club including head to head against other clubs should also be continuous.

6. By designating the number of games players such as Alastair Lynch and Martin Pike have played for Fitzroy, we believe we are appropriately recognising their Fitzroy history and heritage. Again, using Martin Pike as an example, he played 36 games for Fitzroy including some for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears. He also played at Melbourne and with the Kangaroos before being drafted by the Brisbane Lions last year.

We did not believe it was logical for Pike being regarded as having played 37 games for the Brisbane Lions after he played his first game for the Lions this year.

In addition, our statistics department will continue to record the history of the Fitzroy Football Club and it will be continued to be presented in our official annual statistical history which is provided to the media and sold at various book stores.

Yours sincerely,

TONY PEEK
General Manager. Corporate Affairs & Communications"

then there is no reason for any Fitzroy supporters to support them.

Yes there is. They wear Fitzroy's branding and are the custodians of Fitzroy's VFL-AFL history and traditions in the modern AFL. But Fitzroy Football Club (who once held an AFL licence) still exists in its own right, fully independent of the Brisbane Lions and the AFL.

But they do support them, because it is treated by all casual fans for all practical purposed as a merger, even if it technically wasn't.

See above.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Reckon you need to somehow integrate the number of sides competing in said years to make this more meaningful. Fitzroy claiming a wartime flag by winning a round robin from last is not as meritorious as modern day flags.

And what about flags won whereby the top side could lose and claim a mulligan by replaying the match. But if they won there was no such stipulation

 

[Tarkyn_24]

And what about flags won whereby the top side could lose and claim a mulligan by replaying the match. But if they won there was no such stipulation

Are we discounting all systems with a double chance that the premier has gone on to utilise? Because that’s essentially all that is.

I love the tears over it though. I can’t wait to nullify Brissy 03

 

[Dan26]

Fan site.



Everyone does not treat it as that. Even the AFL combines the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions records together.

A letter I received some time ago.

"We acknowledge receipt of your letter of 5th July, 2001 and wish to advise the following.

The question of the statistical and historical records of the Fitzroy Football Club, the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions has been the subject of considerable discussion between our Football Operations department and our Historian and Statistician.

We have resolved the following

1 . For players who played for Fitzroy or the Brisbane Bears, their records were ruled off as at October 31, 1996.

2. For players who played for the Brisbane Bears/Brisbane Lions, for example, Marcus Ashcroft, their playing records were combined based on the principle of continuous service. This approach has been strongly supported by various senior media commentators.

3. Players who played for Fitzroy and the Brisbane Bears/Brisbane Lions should not have their playing records combined.

4. Using Alastair Lynch as an example and there are others including Chris Johnson and Martin Pike who played for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears, we did not believe it was logical to have those games for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears counted as part of the combined total of games for the Brisbane Lions.

5. Given that the Brisbane Lions' position has been that the playing records of players who represented the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions should be continuous, we also felt it was logical that the match records of the club including head to head against other clubs should also be continuous.

6. By designating the number of games players such as Alastair Lynch and Martin Pike have played for Fitzroy, we believe we are appropriately recognising their Fitzroy history and heritage. Again, using Martin Pike as an example, he played 36 games for Fitzroy including some for Fitzroy against the Brisbane Bears. He also played at Melbourne and with the Kangaroos before being drafted by the Brisbane Lions last year.

We did not believe it was logical for Pike being regarded as having played 37 games for the Brisbane Lions after he played his first game for the Lions this year.

In addition, our statistics department will continue to record the history of the Fitzroy Football Club and it will be continued to be presented in our official annual statistical history which is provided to the media and sold at various book stores.

Yours sincerely,

TONY PEEK
General Manager. Corporate Affairs & Communications"




Yes there is. They wear Fitzroy's branding and are the custodians of Fitzroy's VFL-AFL history and traditions in the modern AFL. But Fitzroy Football Club (who once held an AFL licence) still exists in its own right, fully independent of the Brisbane Lions and the AFL.


See above.

Are you blind or something? Did you not read this quote: "I get the official paperwork thing. I get the legal thing. I get the "technically it's not a merger thing".


Go away for God's sake. Talk about something else. Nobody apart from you cares.

 

[Roylion]

Are you blind or something? Did you not read this quote: "I get the official paperwork thing. I get the legal thing. I get the "technically it's not a merger thing".

Then it's not a merger is it. The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the same club. Like Footscray / Western Bulldogs. The Brisbane Lions competed firstly in the VFL-AFL in 1987.

Go away for God's sake. Talk about something else. Nobody apart from you cares.

You put your list up for comment on the main public board of this site. I assume you did this because you wanted comment. I disagree with an aspect of your list and made comment. You argued against what I said. I replied.

The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the SAME club, irrespective of what you think about the merger.

Hence

Brisbane Bears / Lions 4 (38 years).............one every 9.5 years.

The same as West Coast.

 

[Dan26]

You put your list up for comment on the main public board of this site. I assume you did this because you wanted comment. I disagree with an aspect of your list and made comment. You argued against what I said. I replied.

The Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the SAME club, irrespective of what you think about the merger.

Hence

Brisbane Bears / Lions 4 (38 years).............one every 9.5 years.

The same as West Coast.

You replied because you are an obsessive bore who just can't help himself. Internally you know that is true. I stated I am aware of the technicalities, yet you respond as if you are educating me. Do you know how insulting that is? You've been posting the same stuff 2000 times for 20 years? What do you think is going to happen on the 2001st post???

Take the hint. Take a break. Let it go.

 

[Roylion]

You replied because you are an obsessive bore who just can't help himself.

How ironic. Says he who continually posts updated premiership tallies, that anyone can look up elsewhere.

In any case I wasn't the first one to mention it in this particular thread.

Internally you know that is true. I stated I am aware of the technicalities,

Then address it. Official AFL policy is that the records of the Brisbane Bears and Brisbane Lions are combined. Your list doesn't reflect that, because you use a fan site to make your conclusions.

Your 'Order of premiership success (as a percentage of time in the competition)' is incorrect.

I'll leave it to others to comment on other aspects of your list.

yet you respond as if you are educating me.

You post the same mistakes.

You've been posting the same stuff 2000 times for 20 years? What do you think is going to happen on the 2001st post???

I know that you won't change your opinion because 'AFL tables' doesn't. So I'll just keep pointing it out.

Take the hint. Take a break. Let it go.

Fix it then. You posted your list on a public board for I presume comment.

I commented. I wasn't the only one to make comment on it either.

You just don't like the comment and then made some crack about that if you weren't right then "there is no reason for any Fitzroy supporters to support them." That too is wrong.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Are we discounting all systems with a double chance that the premier has gone on to utilise? Because that’s essentially all that is.

I love the tears over it though. I can’t wait to nullify Brissy 03

You raised the notion of judging flags based on a round robin system. Where does the mental gymnastics end?

Do we disregard premierships won MCG tenants against non-tenants??

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Are you blind or something? Did you not read this quote: "I get the official paperwork thing. I get the legal thing. I get the "technically it's not a merger thing".


Go away for God's sake. Talk about something else. Nobody apart from you cares.

In this case it makes a huge difference to what you’ve posted, so people do care.

Brisbane go from #1 to way down the list.

Getting a reset on years in the league because they changed their logo and nickname is a pisstake - especially as the AFL themselves don’t do that in their own records.

 

[Dan26]

How ironic. Says he who continually posts updated premiership tallies, that anyone can look up elsewhere.

I also post lots of other things. You don’t. You’re a bore. Take the hint. You are an obsessive bore who seems to have no introspection on how his obsession is perceived.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I'm reworking my performance metric spreadsheet, from last year.

I'll post it here when ready, it will differ slightly from the op.

Contains the following metrics

Flags
GF's
Finals won
Finals played

These metrics are measured against each club as an average of their time in the competition.