Autopsy US Election Day Thread - Trump 47th President of the United States

[Chief]

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[Episode IV]

Flat, absolutely flat. Even moreso probably have warranted fear what's coming ahead IF we are to take trump at his words / allusion.

So what happens now?...................

- Ukraine? It's been reported that trump will attempt to broker a deal between russia and Ukraine, that being 'Ok kids let's go home, vlad keep what you've taken but be a good boy and leave it there'. Yay! war is over but phuq you Ukraine, you lost.

Do you think any alternative, more favourable to Ukraine, is likely or even possible?
Not sure why you're "flat" about this. Without direct intervention or compromise, the equipment and ammunition keeps flowing in, and the war goes on. And on. And on. Current US/NATO policy ensures that situation will continue until one side or the other is utterly exhausted. The end result is a lot more dead Russians and Ukrainians, and wealthy arms sellers. There is no indication Harris was going to change any of that.

Don't get me wrong, I think direct intervention carries with it some real risk. It largely depends on what form it takes. NATO intervention (directly) would be a hard sell, as the purists would deem that to be an "official" change in NATO itself, and its founding principles to be... well, sidelined. Not that there isn't some precedent for that (Yugoslavia).
They might be able to sell it as a "coalition of the willing" or some such, but the result would be much the same. In any case, it would have to be a peacekeeping "intervention" which results in foreign troops on Ukraine soil... leading to a probable ceasefire and leaving Eastern Ukraine in Russia's hands. I don't think direct US involvement is likely at all, whether Trump is the President or not.
There are other possibilities, of course... I just feel a direct shooting war between Russia and the USA is unlikely no matter who is in charge. Trump might be able to end it - even if not entirely to Ukraine's satisfaction. Supplying material to Ukraine is only dragging it out longer.
Maybe he'll talk about building a Wall. Heh.

Sends a message to vlad that he can, if he wishes continue annexation in neighboring territories 'do what you want'. That doesn't necessarily mean that vlad can just walk into neighboring states and take over, the point is that the message is a green light.

I don't think it sends any such message, really. Any further attacks to the West will be against NATO members directly, and I'm not buying into any notion that Putin's the madman he's purported to be. He knows full well it'd be suicide.
Besides which, what would his motive be for doing so? Do you think Putin just woke up some morning and decided to invade Ukraine for the hell of it? Bit more to it than that, I think, despite the narrative.

The USA had a window, back in the 90's after the USSR was dissolved, to bring Russia back into the fold as an emerging economic nation again. Maybe even give them a leg up, like they do with everyone else who toes the line. Did they do that? No. They crept closer, and closer, and pointed more missiles at Russia.
Russia wanted to put missile silos in Cuba Because America had put them in Turkey. America had a collective heart attack at the thought of being in range of a few missiles in Cuba... and the world nearly went to war. Just imagine how Russia and China feel about it, and how dangerous and silly a tactic it is.
So here we are.

- ME, If I read his allusion correctly 'Hey bibi, I'll give you more support, just kill off hamas and hezbollah, oh heck just kill off the ideology' Yeah like that's gonna happen, it'll just fuel and escalate the war.

That's a complicated one... the Middle East, huh.
From Israel's point of view, a peace treaty is more or less worthless anyway. Every time they sign one, it doesn't take long before the rockets and missiles are flying again. The people throwing them never change much either, other than in name. After 70 odd years of invasions, followed by random rocket, missile and suicide bomb attacks, there's no reason to believe (if you were Israel) that a new treaty will be any different from all the other's they've signed. Note that that's from an Israeli perspective, I'm well aware of the other side point of view as well.
I have no idea what Trump is likely to do about that one. Declare war on Iran, maybe. Again, though, it's not like Harris was likely to do anything different.

- *The liberal democratic alliance and NATO etc., if I read his allusion correctly 'Hey world, it's about us first, we don't wanna be part of globablization, unless it's on our terms'

So what changes? NATO might have started out with lofty motives, but they've become a bit more of an EU/UN military arm or a policing force since.
It's always been on Western terms, mostly the USA. Again, what changes?

^ This is my biggest fear, the weakening of the liberal democratic alliance, this directly effects us.

Worse given we're the most so ready to obey both Chuck and Sam, wouldn't be surprised if trump would use us as a disposable attack dog (more so than now) like vlad does use his own military and citizens as a meat grind. Of course this is all speculative, none the less fairly warranted speculation.

I'd say it is speculative. What use will Trump put Australian troops to that America doesn't already or wouldn't anyway?

* My wild desperate hope is trumps wish for isolation will galvanize the allies, even then without the current 'level of support' from the overwhelming super power, this sends a invitation to non democracies for their wishes like Xi. So my 'optimism' is moot anyway.

To belabour a point, I'd say China's belligerence militarily in recent years has a lot more to do with being ringed by American bases than it has to do with being a non-democracy. Regardless of the "official" Chinese explanations for the nine-dash line, I'd hazard a guess it was at least in part an exasperated reaction to having missiles pointed at them than any desire for expansion for expansion's sake.
"I can't breathe!"

All of the above hasn't even tapped into the impact of the likely global trade wars with his tarrifs game, or even the impact domestically, or even the allusion of abandonment of the Paris agreement, basically a 'meh, climate change pfft'

Yeah I know I'm gonna cop criticism for hyperbole, regardless you can't just hand wave away trumps words.

I am having a little laugh at you, of all people, apparently hyperventilating over the thought of Trump in office (and here's hoping I don't have to eat those words later, huh?) but I have to admit I have only vague notions as to how the "tariff" thing might play out... if it's ever realised. I'll wait to see what form it takes before commenting, I think.

Of course he can't just implement his wishes at a whim, the senate and the HOR have say and influence. Normally I'd 'meh', however there's concern that the repugs might also have the upper hand in the senate and HOR.

That's supposed to be the failsafe. An Australian Prime Minister has more power to commit troops to war without parliamentary approval than a US President does.
Have there ever been any other Presidents in US history which garnered a reputation for having too much control over the senate, and been accused of being Fascist as a result?

During his last term, Trump was laughed at for blaming various similar failsafes in the American political system for not being able to implement policy.

 

[Blue1980]

States rights in the US has been a major, major issue. Dating back to before the Civil war. I forget who said it, but I remember hearing someone describe the US as not one country, but a collection of 50 city states. So true.

That can be a saving grace when anyone like Trump is in charge. If he tries to go too far, you will have states who will go "**** this shit we are out". Maybe that will stop the worst from happening, at least in the next 4 years.

Otherwise, I see breakup of the union, or something that resembles the troubles in Ireland but on a scale of a nation like America.

So basically, buckle-up.

 

[Partridge]

That can be a saving grace when anyone like Trump is in charge. If he tries to go too far, you will have states who will go "**** this shit we are out". Maybe that will stop the worst from happening, at least in the next 4 years.

Otherwise, I see breakup of the union, or something that resembles the troubles in Ireland but on a scale of a nation like America.

So basically, buckle-up.

It shows the people who founded the nation thought long and hard about the checks and balances required. For exactly reasons like you've said. Some of them were totally against having parties, because they saw where it would end.

I don't see any breakup of the Union. They've done it before and it took the loser a century to recover (and some areas are still behind, some due to geography always will be).

 

[Present Not Past]

Haha, Trumpism in a nutshell. Argue about something that they don't properly understand to support an unsupportable policy viewpoint. Keep doubling down and further demonstrating lack of understanding.

Finally realise they didn't understand the facts after all, and get sooky about it. Call the ones who do know the facts "elitist". Very amusing, "well, I didn't know the facts so it's mean of you to point them out and make me look ignorant".

Trumpies literally only want to hear versions of facts that justify their support for the orange turd. They make superficial arguments and generally get away with the factual misrepresentations because people are tired of arguing against ignorance. It's valid for those who know facts to correct misunderstandings of others, in a general sense. Unfortunately, it becomes pointless to keep having to do it when misunderstandings are wilful.

And that's a big reason as to why the orange turd has been elected, and why the millions of disadvantaged essentially voted for a reduction of their social security and healthcare and an increased cost of living, whilst the likes of Bezos and Musk pull billions more from tax-funded US government coffers.

There was no reason for millions of Jews to be killed. It’s just what they were told needed to happen, and the German population just accepted it.
And millions of Germans died as soldiers and civilians because of it.

 

[stefcep]

I'm glad google has helped. Should have used it first instead of jumping on the bullshit assertion that most people are working 3 days out of 5 to fund tax.

The support for tariffs over taxation might have some merit if the average tax rate is unreasonably high, say 60% or more. But a 60% rate literally doesn't apply (in the US or Australia) even with indirect taxes, so the argument becomes disingenuous. If you have a different reason for supporting Trump, feel free to state it. But don't use lies to justify his horrible policies.

If I stop and equate that with time, many private sector workers ARE public servants for 3 out of 5 days of every working week they just don't know it. Its depressing.

Show me the bullshit assertion that most people are working 3 out of 5 days to fund tax?

Show me where the 60% tax rate is mentioned.

Do you understand tax is not limited to income tax?

 

[Vassp]

The leftist elites recognised early a very real threat; not to democracy, but to their hold on power. A charismatic person who was not even a politician. Hence the relentless 8-years+ campaign against him. The lawfare, which people recognised as outrageously overblown and confected; the attempts to bankrupt him; the pursuit and prosecution of his associates; the constant negative and vindictive media reporting; the attempts to ”get something” on his family. Attempts to kill him, possibly instigated by the hyperbolic hate spouted by individuals and media.

None of this deterred him. Now he is disrupting their agenda for the second time.

well said, and spot on. there will still be some that will argue the un- arguable post.

 

[Blue1980]

It shows the people who founded the nation thought long and hard about the checks and balances required. For exactly reasons like you've said. Some of them were totally against having parties, because they saw where it would end.

I don't see any breakup of the Union. They've done it before and it took the loser a century to recover (and some areas are still behind, some due to geography always will be).

Yeah the loser just got Jim Crow laws going, after slavery abolished. So yes, the history of America is never a linear ark to better times. Lots of gains were made in the 60s and 70s, civil rights, roe v wade etc. Then the conservatives fight back, so yes the battle goes on.

The only uncharted territory we are in is we have a guy who has refused to accept the results of an election and a party willing to enable him, even more so this time around. First time around you had enough civility neocons who thought democratic norms (aside from voter supression, hanging chads and gerrymandering) were sacrosanct.

The non-loyalists have been purged from the republican party now, you need to take a loyalty oath to Trump to be in the party now.

But yes, the states rights being far greater than say states rights here, where they can set their own minimum wages, taxes, if they have the death penalty or not etc, maybe the saving grace here.

 

[Blue1980]

There was no reason for millions of Jews to be killed. It’s just what they were told needed to happen, and the German population just accepted it.
And millions of Germans died as soldiers and civilians because of it.

Germans were already 8 years into the dictatorship and a couple of years into a world war, so were fatigued/brainwashed/scared etc. Also wasn't exactly front page news that they were doing the holocaust, stories of it were considered overblown and I don't think were widely reported outside of Germany until 1943 or so (I could be wrong, someone please correct me if so).

Basic point is usually the worst that can happen doesn't happen straight away, and hopefully not at all in this case. As they say history doesn't repeat, but if often rhymes.

 

[Episode IV]

Sure. I mean, he's already got a well-considered, innovative plan to do so.

I might have replied properly, but I'm not really interested in engaging with someone who thinks in pictures.
Can't you copy and paste a few words with a reference?

Go draw a cartoon or something.

 

[Present Not Past]

Germans were already 8 years into the dictatorship and a couple of years into a world war, so were fatigued/brainwashed/scared etc. Also wasn't exactly front page news that they were doing the holocaust, stories of it were considered overblown and I don't think were widely reported outside of Germany until 1943 or so (I could be wrong, someone please correct me if so).

Basic point is usually the worst that can happen doesn't happen straight away, and hopefully not at all in this case. As they say history doesn't repeat, but if often rhymes.

I seem to recall it starting with Jews being encouraged to leave Germany, forcefully mind you.
Those that could afford to leave, did.

 

[Blue1980]

well said, and spot on. there will still be some that will argue the un- arguable post.

Not really, he still caters to the elites. But possibly concentrate power to even few of them than previously.

The Dems and the ****ing pre MAGA neocons republicans were both promoting neoliberalism which kept hollowing out the working class, and why people have thrown a hail mary to Trump.

Im fully for shitting on the dems, but Trump and his enablers don't give a **** about the working class either, the plan is to concentrate power even further to a few, and more distanced from the general populace.

 

[Blue1980]

I seem to recall it starting with Jews being encouraged to leave Germany, forcefully mind you.
Those that could afford to leave, did.

There was that first which kept ramping up throughout the 30s, then it was just like "ah its going to be hard to get rid of them all" so they thought of ideas of sending them to Madagasscar or wherever, then came up with another, solution....

 

[Vassp]

Not really, he still caters to the elites. But possibly concentrate power to even few of them than previously.

The Dems and the ****ing pre MAGA neocons republicans were both promoting neoliberalism which kept hollowing out the working class, and why people have thrown a hail mary to Trump.

Im fully for shitting on the dems, but Trump and his enablers don't give a **** about the working class either, the plan is to concentrate power even further to a few, and more distanced from the general populace.

I dont believe that sorry, Trump has his flaws no doubt about it, but i believe he wants to make a difference.

 

[Sir_Loin]

I dont believe that sorry, Trump has his flaws no doubt about it, but i believe he wants to make a difference.

Wants to stay out of jail that’s it

 

[Vassp]

Wants to stay out of jail that’s it

where is the thinking? like he had to take this job? he couldve done anything. he isnt a two bob watch.

 

[Blue1980]

I dont believe that sorry, Trump has his flaws no doubt about it, but i believe he wants to make a difference.

Well for all our sakes I hope you are right, as what happens in America has flow on impacts everywhere else.

I have no idea what of his policies will help the American working class though. What are the ones that could?

 

[Blue1980]

where is the thinking? like he had to take this job? he couldve done anything. he isnt a two bob watch.

The first time, yes and I dont even think he thought he would win that time.

The crimes he has been charged for have been since 2016-17 though. No one is arguing he was trying to stay out of jail the first time he ran.

But this makes all his legal issues goes away, which I think and hope means he wont try and bullshit to hang around beyond 2028.

 

[Vassp]

Well for all our sakes I hope you are right, as what happens in America has flow on impacts everywhere else.

I have no idea what of his policies will help the American working class though. What are the ones that could?

I see him like I saw Kennett, has his flaws but is a doer.

Firstly he is going hard against the gangs. something our government should (much smaller scale) do but dont.
too tired to think of anything atm but he has some rippers in regards to their auto industry.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

21m ago
22.39 AEDT
Trump’s victory adds record $64bn to wealth of richest top 10
Dan Milmo

'The wealth of the 10 richest people in the world – a list dominated by US tech billionaires – increased by a record amount after Donald Trump’s victory in the presidential election, according to a widely cited index.

The Bloomberg Billionaires Index estimated that the world’s 10 wealthiest people gained nearly $64bn (about £49.5bn) on Wednesday – the largest daily increase since the index began in 2012.....

Much of the gains for the top 10 were because of a surge in US stocks on Wednesday as investors anticipated a low-tax and regulation-light policy platform.'

 

[Pure_Ownage]

The dumb campaigners just want their 401ks topped up not knowing they’ll never be able to spend it

China said to us we have to make a choice. Was made for us

Dumb campaigners alright that's for sure.

 

[stefcep]

A core element of Trump's message is cruelty, a concept which has been eagerly adopted by his followers seemingly. Common decency is a bridge too far for them.

Yes, yes, your lot is both smarter and more virtuous. And unelectable.

 

[Vassp]

21m ago
22.39 AEDT
Trump’s victory adds record $64bn to wealth of richest top 10
Dan Milmo

'The wealth of the 10 richest people in the world – a list dominated by US tech billionaires – increased by a record amount after Donald Trump’s victory in the presidential election, according to a widely cited index.

The Bloomberg Billionaires Index estimated that the world’s 10 wealthiest people gained nearly $64bn (about £49.5bn) on Wednesday – the largest daily increase since the index began in 2012.....

Much of the gains for the top 10 were because of a surge in US stocks on Wednesday as investors anticipated a low-tax and regulation-light policy platform.'

Whats the point?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

this is the entire problem with politics generally, but America is the extreme case in first world countries.

People need to respect that other people want different things and have different preferences.

If you cut people off you disagree with; you just end up in an echo chamber.

Nah that doesn't work in the real world. You need to stand up for things that matter and some things and ethics are out of bounds so you take a stand.

 

[Blue1980]

I see him like I saw Kennett, has his flaws but is a doer.

Firstly he is going hard against the gangs. something our government should (much smaller scale) do but dont.
too tired to think of anything atm but he has some rippers in regards to their auto industry.

If Kennett was like Trump he'd have refused to concede in 1999, and come up with every scheme you could think of saying it was rigged, unfair, pressuring swing seats to find votes etc.

That is one huge fundamental difference, amongst others. Kennett was more a Thatcher like neocon.

 

[stefcep]

Trump broke the law. What about him.. The point that you all dance around.
Now that he is President elect, they are going to quash his trials* for insurrection and treason.

*show trials.