Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[The_Wookie]

Did essendon, St Kilda, Bulldogs all get the same deal or was it a different deal for each club.

To get the Bombers to move from the G, Essendon got a UNIQUE deal that literally required it to be better than all of the other tenants at the venue. That deal ends next year.

Carlton took a 2 million dollar bribe from MSL to move there, convenient given the President of the Carlton football club and the CEO of MSL were the one and the same. Hwwever, they received lower gate reciepts as a result. That initial deal ended in 2014.

St Kilda and North had deals for little more than gate reciepts and a share in the corporates that ended in 2008 and 2007 and were never renewed, instead defaulting to the AFL agreement for gate receipts and a guaranteed return from MSL. The Dogs were likely in a similar position.

Sounds very dodgy what happened in Victoria with grounds. Some clubs made out like bandits and others got screwed, somewhere along the line some clubs must of been given something to accept those crap deals.

MCG returns were always better than Docklands ones under MSL. a 40,000 crowd at Docklands would generate 1/3rd what it does at the MCG(in 2014 anyway). Returns are better now than they were thanks to guaranteess and the league.

As for wanting to kill off Victorian teams they did a piss poor job at that. lol

It wasnt for lack of trying. The League actively undercut any attempt at Fitzroys survival, including match deals offered in Brisbane, Canberra and Tasmania.

The league had merger reward money on the table as late as the Melbourne Hawks saga. Wasnt just the League, Elliots proposal in 85 called for mergers and the Blues chased at least 2 mergers, one by trying to buyout the Roos (as a listed company), and a proposed merger with the Saints early on.

Its widely believed that Wayne Jacksons relatively hasty departure - he lasted less than half the time most AFL CEOS have was due to this policy and Vic clubs banding together to oust him.

 

[doppleganger]

Yeah I know, but the point I was trying to make is.

Playing Geelong at the MCG and not going to alphabet stadium, is not the advantage all the sheep think it is, we had a better record at their home ground than we do at the MCG against them.

We are advantaged compared to the other Melbourne teams by only getting neutral games against Geelong.

The WA/SA teams cant complain, Geelong play them on their home deck, and they likewise play Geelong on theirs.

In 2024

Geelong play 6 games at the G

Geelong played Collingwood just once, it was our "home game" at the G. That isn't an advantage to us like it used to be at VicPark, it is just another neutral BLOCKBUSTER game in front of 85K at the G between two teams who are familiar with the ground.

Geelong played Hawthorn twice, once at the G as a Hawthorn "home" game and the other at Cat Park.

Surely everyone can see that Geelong get the best out of that combo.

So Collingwood is advantaged compared to the other Melbourne teams.

It the same thing as Collingwood and travel, we travel as much as other Vic clubs, but the sheep think we don't , they say it enough, then everyone believes it.

We dont sell games, so "travel" less than the likes of Hawthorn.

Although, Hawthorn are the most successful Melbourne based club, travelling 9-10 times a year isnt an issue for Hawthorn.

The Pies are looking at ditching a Marvel game or 2, and shifting them to the Gold Coast...if travel was such a big issue it wouldn't be a consideration.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

We are advantaged compared to the other Melbourne teams by only getting neutral games against Geelong.

The WA/SA teams cant complain, Geelong play them on their home deck, and they likewise play Geelong on theirs.

In 2024

Geelong play 6 games at the G

Geelong played Collingwood just once, it was our "home game" at the G. That isn't an advantage to us like it used to be at VicPark, it is just another neutral BLOCKBUSTER game in front of 85K at the G between two teams who are familiar with the ground.

Geelong played Hawthorn twice, once at the G as a Hawthorn "home" game and the other at Cat Park.

Surely everyone can see that Geelong get the best out of that combo.

So Collingwood is advantaged compared to the other Melbourne teams.


We dont sell games, so "travel" less than the likes of Hawthorn.

Although, Hawthorn are the most successful Melbourne based club, travelling 9-10 times a year isnt an issue for Hawthorn.

The Pies are looking at ditching a Marvel game or 2, and shifting them to the Gold Coast...if travel was such a big issue it wouldn't be a consideration.

You think they the Pies are doing this out of generosity or you reckon they might get something out of it from head office?

No club will give away to Melbourne games without some benefit for themselves, and being that it is Collingwood there will be something major in it for them

 

[LoungeLizard]

You think they the Pies are doing this out of generosity or you reckon they might get something out of it from head office?

No club will give away to Melbourne games without some benefit for themselves, and being that it is Collingwood there will be something major in it for them

"if travel was such a big issue it wouldn't be a consideration."

 

[p4p1]

Possibly.

Cumulutive impact is the only potential thing.

Most of this thread is simply looking for disadvantages, whilst ignoring own advantages - and frankly having a team travel to play you does seem an advantage - an advantage that non-vic teams get as often as they give up. And gather round teams get a little bit more.

I think that teams have come up with ways to lessen the geographical disadvantages through research, trial and error but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Freo and WC would be used to whatever the support staff have them do to help recovery etc when they are on the plan, and as said that would help lessen the disadvantage but it is still there. WA teams can't do anything about having the longest trips in footy.

There has been definite bias' in the past against non-victorian teams which probably have us being a little bit on edge about unfair advantages. Dimma doesn't seem to be traveling great with an interstate team packed with talent.

 

[The_Wookie]

You think they the Pies are doing this out of generosity or you reckon they might get something out of it from head office?

No club will give away to Melbourne games without some benefit for themselves, and being that it is Collingwood there will be something major in it for them

Carrara is effectively an AFL managed stadium (the AFL are the leaseholder, delegated management to the Suns), so match returns for a sold out game at Carrara are likely to be pretty good, as Pies would keep most of the revenue for this.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

"if travel was such a big issue it wouldn't be a consideration."

I have no idea about the travel issue as I have not done it as these players have. Have you?
The vast majority who have however say its a real issue?
We have heard since day dot that melbourne sides returning from the trip to Perth to play the following week have a drop in performance?

I tend to believe the people who actually do it than the ones who don't. We know the travel is real, is it an issue in performance? The people who do it say yes.

What to believe.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Carrara is effectively an AFL managed stadium (the AFL are the leaseholder, delegated management to the Suns), so match returns for a sold out game at Carrara are likely to be pretty good, as Pies would keep most of the revenue for this.

So the answer is yes, the Pies would get something big out of it. Not going to grow the game or help the league out.

 

[p4p1]

Different deals, big clubs like Essendon used their size to get more favourable deals.

None really made out like bandits, even Essendon were better off in the 90s when they played 17-18 games at the G.

Collingwood were only able to negotiate our MCG deal in mid 2000s, early 2000s we would get 7 games at Marvel as we were used as the cash cow.

Our MCG deal was part of MCC giving up locked in PF. You are welcome

But that there was a deal in place for the MCG that guarantees a PF was completely insane in a national competition. It may have cost my team a premiership.

 

[doppleganger]

You think they the Pies are doing this out of generosity or you reckon they might get something out of it from head office?

No club will give away to Melbourne games without some benefit for themselves, and being that it is Collingwood there will be something major in it for them

Nothing from head office, they would want us to play the game at their venue...Marvel.

Your thinking highlights the shortcoming in the VICBias sooking.

We aren't wanting to give up a home ground advantage game, but our Marvel "home" games. A game at Marvel isnt an advantage game for us anyway, we play teams more familiar with Marvel than us.

Ground advantage is more important than whether you got on a plane.

Sth East QLD a huge growth area, so strategic sense to get a bigger presence there. Get a regular pre-season camp up there, train at Cararra or play a pre-season game and run community programs. Then push to play 3 games each year in Sth East QLD (push to also play away against Suns every year as an example). If can get a couple of weeks up on Gold Coast around winter school holidays would be the thinking, run more community sessions, and play 2 games at Cararra.

All of a sudden we are familiar at Cararra, playing 3 games a year plus training sessions there, so actually get a ground familiarity advantage over opponents, instead of a disadvantage like at Marvel.

And then commercial aspect, get a big presence in Sth East QLD, can sell special QLD memberships etc.

Obviously if travel, sleeping in hotels, time away from home etc., had such a negative impact on performance it wouldn't be a consideration...

 

[LoungeLizard]

I have no idea about the travel issue as I have not done it as these players have. Have you?
The vast majority who have however say its a real issue?
We have heard since day dot that melbourne sides returning from the trip to Perth to play the following week have a drop in performance?

I tend to believe the people who actually do it than the ones who don't. We know the travel is real, is it an issue in performance? The people who do it say yes.

What to believe.

Is that like when the AFL asked all those questions and clubs just tried to take advantage?

You see, if there was so big a disadvantage, then there would be some data to prove this, I have asked for people to show this, but not one person can.

People saying it is, does not prove it is, in fact you have Don Pyke now saying it is a disadvantage, yet took the team he coached (Adelaide) to the Gold Coast for some rest, during finals.

That's what you call hypocritical.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Nothing from head office, they would want us to play the game at their venue...Marvel.

Your thinking highlights the shortcoming in the VICBias sooking.

We aren't wanting to give up a home ground advantage game, but our Marvel "home" games. A game at Marvel isnt an advantage game for us anyway, we play teams more familiar with Marvel than us.

Ground advantage is more important than whether you got on a plane.

Sth East QLD a huge growth area, so strategic sense to get a bigger presence there. Get a regular pre-season camp up there, train at Cararra or play a pre-season game and run community programs. Then push to play 3 games each year in Sth East QLD (push to also play away against Suns every year as an example). If can get a couple of weeks up on Gold Coast around winter school holidays would be the thinking, run more community sessions, and play 2 games at Cararra.

All of a sudden we are familiar at Cararra, playing 3 games a year plus training sessions there, so actually get a ground familiarity advantage over opponents, instead of a disadvantage like at Marvel.

And then commercial aspect, get a big presence in Sth East QLD, can sell special QLD memberships etc.

Obviously if travel, sleeping in hotels, time away from home etc., had such a negative impact on performance it wouldn't be a consideration...

You still fighting this travel issue even when every person in the AFL be it a coach, players, administration believe it to be an issue?
You don't believe the people who are doing it?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Is that like when the AFL asked all those questions and clubs just tried to take advantage?

You see, if there was so big a disadvantage, then there would be some data to prove this, I have asked for people to show this, but not one person can.

People saying it is, does not prove it is, in fact you have Don Pyke now saying it is a disadvantage, yet took the team he coached (Adelaide) to the Gold Coast for some rest, during finals.

That's what you call hypocritical.

Again I can only believe the people who do it, the entire AFL, even every single person at your club believes it is an issue.
Do they not know?

 

[Papa G]

The bellend Victorian's, mainly the Awesome 4some of Collingwood dullards lead by the CheifDoddle keep harping on about the "genuine home Ground advantage" Non Vic teams get. I have offered several times the most doable and achievable solution to this and every single one of these idiots discounts it.

It's really simple:
Melbourne, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond play all their home games at the MCG.

Carlton, Essendon, St Kilda and Bulldogs play all their home games at Marvel.

I don't give a flying **** if Carlton are playing Collingwood in Fauxbusta, if it's a Carlton home game, their members get to pack out their own home ground, shut out the Collingwood supporters and voila "home ground advantage". It's so bloody simple. But no no no. We can't have that! Think about all the fans who cant get in. Blockbustas moite! The GEEE! Well knobeaters, you can't have this on one hand and then decry no home ground advantage on the other.

 

[doppleganger]

You still fighting this travel issue even when every person in the AFL be it a coach, players, administration believe it to be an issue?
You don't believe the people who are doing it?

Travel is a minor consideration if you can get a ground familiarity advantage.

Pies flying to Gold Coast would mean we get a ground familiarity advantage over the likes of StKilda or West Coast, compared to playing them at Marvel.

And we would get crowd support in QLD too.

So we effecitvely flip a ground disadvantage game into a ground advantage game by travelling.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Again I can only believe the people who do it, the entire AFL, even every single person at your club believes it is an issue.
Do they not know?

Look it may be an issue, but to me, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
If it was this big issue people like to make out, then how the f*&^% can so many players win brownlows?

Poeple like to sook, they love to use this to sook about, but no-one can show anything except so and so said so.

Maybe it's just a pain in the arse traveling all the time, that I would believe but nothing is going to stop that unless they play more than 1 game away at a time.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

The bellend Victorian's, mainly the Awesome 4some of Collingwood dullards lead by the CheifDoddle keep harping on about the "genuine home Ground advantage" Non Vic teams get. I have offered several times the most doable and achievable solution to this and every single one of these idiots discounts it.

It's really simple:
Melbourne, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond play all their home games at the MCG.

Carlton, Essendon, St Kilda and Bulldogs play all their home games at Marvel.

I don't give a flying **** if Carlton are playing Collingwood in Fauxbusta, if it's a Carlton home game, their members get to pack out their own home ground, shut out the Collingwood supporters and voila "home ground advantage". It's so bloody simple. But no no no. We can't have that! Think about all the fans who cant get in. Blockbustas moite! The GEEE! Well knobeaters, you can't have this on one hand and then decry no home ground advantage on the other.

Exactly right. Very simple which is why the AFL have not done it. They can't even fixture 17 rounds where every team plays each other once in an 18 team comp.

 

[LoungeLizard]

The bellend Victorian's, mainly the Awesome 4some of Collingwood dullards lead by the CheifDoddle keep harping on about the "genuine home Ground advantage" Non Vic teams get. I have offered several times the most doable and achievable solution to this and every single one of these idiots discounts it.

It's really simple:
Melbourne, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond play all their home games at the MCG.

Carlton, Essendon, St Kilda and Bulldogs play all their home games at Marvel.

I don't give a flying **** if Carlton are playing Collingwood in Fauxbusta, if it's a Carlton home game, their members get to pack out their own home ground, shut out the Collingwood supporters and voila "home ground advantage". It's so bloody simple. But no no no. We can't have that! Think about all the fans who cant get in. Blockbustas moite! The GEEE! Well knobeaters, you can't have this on one hand and then decry no home ground advantage on the other.

If you want to know why no-one gives a rats about what you say, read your posts a few times, if you have any IQ at all, you will work it out.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Look it may be an issue, but to me, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
If it was this big issue people like to make out, then how the f*&^% can so many players win brownlows?

Poeple like to sook, they love to use this to sook about, but no-one can show anything except so and so said so.

Maybe it's just a pain in the arse traveling all the time, that I would believe but nothing is going to stop that unless they play more than 1 game away at a time.

I think your last line is more apt than anything, I think it becomes a real chore and hence as we all know when things become a chore things can get harder.
Like I said I have not done it. Its hard not to believe an entire organization that says its real though. You can't get much more proof than that.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Travel is a minor consideration if you can get a ground familiarity advantage.

Pies flying to Gold Coast would mean we get a ground familiarity advantage over the likes of StKilda or West Coast, compared to playing them at Marvel.

And we would get crowd support in QLD too.

So we effecitvely flip a ground disadvantage game into a ground advantage game by travelling.

Yep thats all good and well. But again you can't keep denying what the entire league says is true.

 

[sr36]

It didn't say anything about jet lag.
It talked about how some people get grumpy if their sleep pattern changes effecting performance, then went on to say West Australians don't travel far enough to be effected.

It makes sense, because if it did effect players their would not be as many brownlow winners from over west and up north, I think I counted 11, that's a hell of a lot of players not effected.

This link shows different teams records in different states during the AFL era

AFL Tables - State Win/Loss Records

The last two columns show that the WA teams have comfortably the biggest difference between home state and away state. I don't think it's coincidental.

Now WA teams will only look at the away column and cry rivers of victimhood. But what about the home column? Yes they have a disadvantage when they travel, but when others travel to them the advantage is so big that the purple bumblers have been as difficult to beat in WA as the Hawks have been in Vic during this 37 years when the Hawks have been so ****ing good so ****ing often and Freo have been... Freo.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I think your last line is more apt than anything, I think it becomes a real chore and hence as we all know when things become a chore things can get harder.
Like I said I have not done it. Its hard not to believe an entire organization that says its real though. You can't get much more proof than that.

Ok, explain the brownlows, getting over it being a pain in the arse, explains it.

See if you can explain it?

Being a pain in the arse is not a vic bias, we get cold weather here, colder than WA, would that be a pain in arse to some?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Ok, explain the brownlows, getting over it being a pain in the arse, explains it.

See if you can explain it?

Being a pain in the arse is not a vic bias, we get cold weather here, colder than WA, would that be a pain in arse to some?

Brownlows are individual awards, that a few blokes from WA have the ability firstly to win the award, have the mental attitude to get passed whatever this travel issue is. I am guessing thats the answer.

Players winning a brownlow from WA doesn't prove or even make any indent into their not being an issue for travelling teams to perform.
not sure why you keep mentioning brownlows, very individual thing.

 

[sr36]

I think that teams have come up with ways to lessen the geographical disadvantages through research, trial and error but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Freo and WC would be used to whatever the support staff have them do to help recovery etc when they are on the plan, and as said that would help lessen the disadvantage but it is still there. WA teams can't do anything about having the longest trips in footy

I'm agreeing with you that travel is a disadvantage.

But they get the same number of games where they're disadvantaged as they get where they're advantaged because teams travel to them. In terms of individual games the advantage and disadvantage square up.

The only question is whether travelling more often creates a cumulative disadvantage or does it perhaps make you better at travelling and means that you net out with an overall advantage. And frankly I think the answer to that is a complete guess.

My guess is sort out the fixture so they don't have any short breaks after a travel and then get on with it

 

[Purple Suit]

Look it may be an issue, but to me, it doesn't seem to be much of an issue.
If it was this big issue people like to make out, then how the f*&^% can so many players win brownlows?

Poeple like to sook, they love to use this to sook about, but no-one can show anything except so and so said so.

Maybe it's just a pain in the arse traveling all the time, that I would believe but nothing is going to stop that unless they play more than 1 game away at a time.

Look at how many in WA based players have played 300 games, it is a lot less than other clubs over the same eras.

This link shows different teams records in different states during the AFL era

AFL Tables - State Win/Loss Records

The last two columns show that the WA teams have comfortably the biggest difference between home state and away state. I don't think it's coincidental.

Now WA teams will only look at the away column and cry rivers of victimhood. But what about the home column? Yes they have a disadvantage when they travel, but when others travel to them the advantage is so big that the purple bumblers have been as difficult to beat in WA as the Hawks have been in Vic during this 37 years when the Hawks have been so ****ing good so ****ing often and Freo have been... Freo.

The advantage goes to all home teams, even in sports with the exact same size grounds.

The draw is currently not even close to being fair. The opening round bs and gather round has swung it further away and now the WA teams have to travel even further. Something needs to come back the other way to even it up & 1 extra away game for Melbourne based teams every 5 years to WA would do that. They can take all the gate takings and it'll generate more revenue for nearly all clubs compared to in Melbourne. Even if 1 Collingwood game every 5 years would be worse off.