Roast Voss and his amatuer support staff can get stuffed if these players are there in 2011

[Panthera]

Being from Melbourne, everyone lives and breathes football - it's always the talk of the town.

Well, for the first time in my life I am embarresed to be supporting such an amatuer looking football team; this includes the Bears era

I love Voss, absolutely love the bloke, but something is not right and key decisions need to be made over the next few months or we'll be a basketcase once Brown, Fev, Black & Power retire. Whilst I'm not going to pretend to know what is wrong up there, from an outsider looking in; it seems we have lost all confidence since the mass injury period of rounds 5-10 hit. Voss is the coach, it's his job to ensure this doesn't happen.

As much as this is a reason, rather than excuse, certain players have been found out as either soft, not good enough, not hungry enough or simply not a Lions type player:

Collier
Hanley
Hawksley
Johnstone
Proud
Raines
Selwood
Sheldon
Sherman
Stiller

If any of these players are there next season, they'll lose 3 Melbourne members

The below players are our future:

Banfield
Bartlett
Clark
Cornelius
Leuenberger
O'Brien
Polinghorne
Redden
Rich
Rockliff

Hmmm, only 10 young players that seem to be capapble of being consistantly good players on our whole list.

The Lions are in trouble

 

[FFB1]

Collier AGREE
Hanley AGREE
Hawksley AGREE
Johnstone AGREE
Proud AGREE
Raines AGREE
Selwood 50/50 - swaying the AGREE way unless he gets some games for the rest of the season and proves otherwise
Sheldon AGREE
Sherman AGREE
Stiller AGREE

I reckon you have pretty much nailed it.



The below players are our future:

Banfield AGREE
Bartlett AGREE
Clark AGREE
Cornelius AGREE
Leuenberger AGREE
O'Brien AGREE
PolKinghorne AGREE
Redden AGREE
Rich AGREE
Rockliff AGREE

 

[John]

Collier
Hanley
Hawksley
Johnstone
Proud
Raines
Selwood
Sheldon
Sherman
Stiller

If any of these players are there next season, they'll lose 3 Melbourne members

Seeing as a couple will be there I will have to bid you 3 a sad farewell.

 

[Cousin Jed]

Don't think you can delist that many players in a year.

 

[Scubaveg]

Being from Melbourne, everyone lives and breathes football - it's always the talk of the town.

Well, for the first time in my life I am embarresed to be supporting such an amatuer looking football team; this includes the Bears era

I love Voss, absolutely love the bloke, but something is not right and key decisions need to be made over the next few months or we'll be a basketcase once Brown, Fev, Black & Power retire. Whilst I'm not going to pretend to know what is wrong up there, from an outsider looking in; it seems we have lost all confidence since the mass injury period of rounds 5-10 hit. Voss is the coach, it's his job to ensure this doesn't happen.

As much as this is a reason, rather than excuse, certain players have been found out as either soft, not good enough, not hungry enough or simply not a Lions type player:

Collier
Hanley
Hawksley
Johnstone
Proud
Raines
Selwood
Sheldon
Sherman
Stiller

If any of these players are there next season, they'll lose 3 Melbourne members

The below players are our future:

Banfield
Bartlett
Clark
Cornelius
Leuenberger
O'Brien
Polinghorne
Redden
Rich
Rockliff

Hmmm, only 10 young players that seem to be capapble of being consistantly good players on our whole list.

The Lions are in trouble

Seems somebodies emotions are runing high. Common sense says you can't cut 10mplayers the year after cutting 16 players (including rookies) the year before.

Johnstone,
Raines
Sellwood
Stiller

are four that should deintely go.

 

[Axel.]

What's wrong with Hanley and Proud?

Collier needs time to develop also. But i agree with the rest.

 

[Lionfan]

I doubt Raines will get the chop, Proud will be around also he has potential.

 

[BuntonRules]

Seems somebodies emotions are runing high. Common sense says you can't cut 10mplayers the year after cutting 16 players (including rookies) the year before.

Johnstone,
Raines
Sellwood
Stiller

are four that should deintely go.

Believe Raines has a 3 year contract. Agree that you cannot cut so many. The main criteria, IMO, should be youth. At least with Proud, Hawksley etc, there is scope for improvement. Fact is, they are all we have.

 

[lionaround]

Hanley is still a project case, give him time.

Collier 50/50 - Being played out of position but hasn't shown anything yet.
Hanley DISAGREE
Hawksley DISAGREE
Johnstone AGREE
Proud DISAGEE
Raines AGREE
Selwood 50/50
Sheldon AGREE
Sherman 50/50 - Desperately needs to find form to remain in the team.
Stiller ? - What happened to this bloke? Haven't seen him around in a while.

Cool heads are needed here, it's always after a big loss that this board goes in meltdown mode and people are calling for the coaches head. Look at it from a reasonable viewpoint, we can't even delist that many players, who will replace them?

 

[Panthera]

Seems somebodies emotions are runing high. Common sense says you can't cut 10mplayers the year after cutting 16 players (including rookies) the year before.

Johnstone,
Raines
Sellwood
Stiller

are four that should deintely go.

Strongly disagree; if the players are not likely to make you a better team then why would you keep them

 

[dlanod]

Strongly disagree; if the players are not likely to make you a better team then why would you keep them

Because it's far more likely that the top three or four out of that ten (say, Hawksley, Proud and Sherman) will have a better career in future years at the Lions than picks 96-100 in the draft, which are the players they'll be competing against. Last year we only took five picks and the last was still in the 90s, and that was without the GC effectively doubling the length of the first round.

BTW Hanley, being "drafted" last year, should be on a minimum two year contract unless the rules for rookie promotions are different.

So, in other words, goodbye.

 

[Stocka]

We'll be a basketcase once Brown, Fev, Black & Power retire.

We are a basketcase with these players IN the side. This is part of the problem.

In my opinion, there is little point in Power playing on next season. I think that his declining performances are already hurting us. If Power was not a champion name at the club, people would already be calling for his axing at this stage. Whilst there is definitely value in having his leadership and professionalism around the club, his on-field ability is sadly in decline and hurting us right now. Come this time next year, I imagine that he may even be battling to stay in the team. I don't believe that a change of role, such as playing as a small forward, will help, because looking at what Power does and doesn't do out on the field, I'd suggest that his is not up to the requirements of this role. Sure, Power can still put out a top-notch game every now and then (just as someone like T.Edwards probably could as well), but at this stage of his career, what is the point? The team needs players who can develop their consistency levels to be playing good football more often than not as opposed to relying on players pulling one out of the bag against one of our arch rivals such as Collingwood. In the words of J.Gillard, we need to be "Moving Forward!".

Black might have another year left in him, based on the fact that his skill level appears to still make him an effective midfielder on his day. Unlike Power, he is still able to execute elite skills, which still makes him valuable. However, physically, despite his top-level efforts, the game has been leaving him behind for a number of years now when you look at what is required to be a top level midfielder. Once again, Black is not well suited to other roles in the team apart from the midfield, so I think 2011 would certainly be a case of him being managed through the year so as to help with the hand-over of duties to the younger brigade. This would probably come in the form of him spending more time on the bench, the prospect of more weeks with him being "rested" as well as more time in a spot such as on the wing as opposed to in the centre square. Even so, given Black's battle with injuries, perhaps even one more year might be too much to ask of him.

Personally, I don't believe at all in this two gun forward set-up that we've got going. I think that we've developed a bit of a mindset that it's somehow an essential ingredient in success and a defining point of Lions' teams. There's probably not much that we can do about it though, considering that both Brown and Fevola won't be going anywhere any time soon. Unfortunately, I feel that it's an incredible investment of our salary cap in an area of the ground in which we could halve that investment and use that money elsewhere to improve our midfield (in theory).

To get back to your original point, the delisting of various players will not improve things. Players who are delisted are those who essentially are not offering you anything anyway. It might have the affect of clearing the decks to allow for improvement to the list, but unless the recruiting and player development aspects are in place, it will merely be a case of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. As some people have already mentioned, a number of the players on the list you've given would be improved players if there were more elite talent in the team. So, it would seem that improving the amount of elite talent (particularly in the midfield) is a crucial focus area. Some might say that this has been the case from the beginning of 2006 and onwards.

Unfortunately, I think we've most likely missed the boat on being able to attract established midfield talent to the club at this point in time, so unless something changes between now and October, we'll have to hope that we can use our early picks in this year's draft well to get the best midfielders available. A lot of clubs have had a successful recent history of picking good midfielders early in the draft who have been able to have an impact in the first couple of years of their careers, so I think there is hope in this strategy for the Lions.

With this in mind, to look beyond just the delisting of players, I'd also look towards trying to improve our draft position by trading players who don't appear to be taking us forward but who might attract interest elsewhere. There may have to be some tough decisions made if this is the avenue that is taken, and these decisions might prove to be tougher than those decisions about who to delist.

 

[Stocka]

The below players are our future:

Banfield
Bartlett
Clark
Cornelius
Leuenberger
O'Brien
Polinghorne
Redden
Rich
Rockliff

Hmmm, only 10 young players that seem to be capapble of being consistantly good players on our whole list.

What makes you sold on Bartlett and O'Brien so far? How have they demonstrated that they are "consistently good"? It looks like you're just pulling names out of nowhere, based on anecdotal comments on the potential of various players, as opposed to form sighted in the seniors.

Even looking at some of the other names that you've mentioned in Cornelius, Rockliff and Banfield, who have essentially all only had their first extended run in the seniors this year, what makes you so convinced that they have done enough to be considered any better as prospects than some of the names who you've suggested that we delist (or other players who we already have delisted), considering that some of those names also showed some promise early in their careers? I'd also say that Redden and Polkinghorne also have some way to go before showing that they're not merely early-career teasers. So, out of your list, that really leaves (in my opinion), Rich, Clark and Leuenberger, who were all first round picks who you'd therefore expect to show the elite talent that warranted their early selection in the first place.

So, taking Rich, Clark and Leuenberger out of your list, dare I say it, that the likes of Sherman, Stiller, Dalziell, Proud, Henderson, Collier, Mills, Roe, Hooper, Corrie, MacDonald, Selwood, Wood and possibly even Harding all showed promise in their early days at the Lions that would be comparable to what the rest of above list of your have shown.

 

[JBs shadow]

What's wrong with Hanley and Proud?

Collier needs time to develop also. But i agree with the rest.

Collier has to go! He is the worst player to be on the Brisbane Lions list since 1996! He is a dead set hack! No heart, No ability, No future!

He is the first to go in my opinion!

 

[TheJanuaryMan]

johnstone has been a shocker for a couple of years. looks more interested in winning some sort of "afl's best caveman impression" award than actually winning some contested footy. dump him. proud has had a few too many discipline issues. get rid of him. one i'm not sure about is raines, think he needs a bit more time to reall assess

 

[T Rick]

I've just worked out why our team has hit rock bottom in confidence...most are reading BigFooty and need therapy.

 

[ZoBlitz]

Collier has to go! He is the worst player to be on the Brisbane Lions list since 1996! He is a dead set hack! No heart, No ability, No future!

He is the first to go in my opinion!

I see your Collier and raise you Calthorpe.

 

[ms86]

I like everyone and dissapointed with the way this season has developed. In terms of delisting heaps of players I don't think it will happen this year. Seeing Voss got rid of so many players last season, you would have to think that most the players on the list would be contracted until atleast the end of 2011.

I hope the AFL cap the unlimited interchange I think it will benifit our side, and players like Stiller who are elite runners but don't have the pace to be successful in the AFL at the moment due to the high rotations.

If the interchage in capped players like stiller, rischa etc would be far more component at AFL level as they can run out 4 quarters and will be able to get on top of their opponents as the match goes on. I'm praying for capped rotations or I think we will stay at the bottom for a while.

 

[lionshine]

If you want to add somebody who hasn;t even played a seniors game yet infact he only played a handful fo reserves games in your list of the future you have too add in

Beams
Mcculloch
Harwood
Retzlaff
McCauley

So far all of those players have showed a hell of alot more than Bartlett at reserves level!

 

[frdkng]

Panthera, I too feel embarrassed and frustrated. Its been such a wasteful season. We have on paper got one of the best forward lines and we still struggle to kick goals. Something is not right as I thing we are better than the performances we have been showing on the ground. Its like I am giving my time for absolutely no reward. The way we are heading we are going to finish last!

I give one more year for Vossie to turn things around or else I want him out just as I felt with Leigh Matthews as clearly his time was up.

As for the exodus of the players you listed is risky as there was a major cleanup last year which may have unsettled the team. But yes, the club needs a hard look at the players and perhaps Voss needs to make these players aware that if they dont lift then there is no future as lions players.

 

[dmc333]

Believe Raines has a 3 year contract.

Someone told me this last week, nearly fell over.

 

[granny]

how can you expect players to have a good game when they in the middle of a huge inhouse disagreement with a certain mr. collins.not allowed to say anything about it. i can tell you the lions will be left short of players next year and coachesif it is not fixed asap

 

[Quigley]

Collier - Keep. Tall utility who is finding his feet but is still improving. There will be a few leave and this is not the year for wholesale changes.
Hanley - definate keeper. He has pace and kicking ability that everyone is banging on about. He is still learning the game at AFL level why the hell would we get rid of him now when he is just starting to look like he might pay off.
Hawksley - Keep. I have never been his biggest fan but he is another who is improving albeit slowly. The pressure will be on him next year but he offers us an improving depth player.
Johnstone - Let go. We are paying him a lot of money and the return we are getting is well below par. He will be 31 next year and should be outside the 22 in a fit side. It would be nice if the GC offered him a nice 1 year contract at the end of this year so we could recoup a draft pick.
Proud - I would keep but I can understand if he was cut lose. He has shown hardly anything in the chances he has gotten (although largely played out of position) and has continually had off-field issues. He will get a chance in the next few weeks and how he goes will decide his fate. Hopefully he plays in the midfield and is given every chance to succeed.
Raines - Let go. This 3 year deal is a bit of an urban legend I think. Everybody hears it on BF and assumes it is true. Staker was another who supposedly got a 3 year deal and I give that more credence than Raines who was unwanted by the worst team in the AFL.
Selwood - Let go. Definately on the outer with the coach and if you are not going to play someone with his experience when the team is going so poorly you just cut him lose and more on.
Sheldon - I would keep. Still young and seems like a kid willing to do what it takes. By the sound of it he looks like a different player when given a shot in the midfield so I hope he gets a couple of senior games there before the end of the year. We can't delist everyone.
Sherman - I wouldn't delist him but maybe look to trade him. He continues to frustrate but he does have a lot of talent. There will be some pretty serious words spoken in the offseason and he will have a clear idea about what he needs to do. Clearly in our best 22 when on song and so I retain him.
Stiller - Keep. I have been a little disappointed that Stiller has not played more this year after looking like he could be a good tagging option last year. Suffers in Voss' eyes because he does not win his own ball. With the capping of the interchange he could come right back into contention next year. Keep and see how things develop.

So that is only 3 from that list for me although I would have a few more on shakey ground and I would add Austin and McCulloch to the list of guys who would be lucky to be on the list come the start of next year. With that said it might not be just our choice as to how many spots we free up. It would not surprise me if Power retired and maybe even Black. That could have 5 draft picks in a draft already weakened by GC getting a lot of early picks and picking the eyes out of the younger guys last year.

Then you need to factor in guys who might request to leave the Lions. If there has been the turmoil inside the club that Hamilton has indicated then a few guys might be asked to be traded. This could easily be another one or two players.

Then there is also the GC to taken into account. What people have to consider is that we are almost certainly it sounds like going to lose at least one and maybe two players to the GC (for the second likely the player will specify the salary they want and go into the draft where only GC will be willing to meet the salary demands). So there is a spot or two which we have to draft for.

So without even delisting anyone who could still turnover 5 or 6 players. Combined with delistings that kind of turnover does nothing for development. Therefore I say keep the young guys and have an offseason focused on football fundamentals rather than running. Teach the younger players how to hit targets and win the clearances. They are the ones most likely to benefit and if you can get the habits ingrained in them at this stage it would help us enormously.

 

[Gibbo_88]

I think Stiller should definitely go. He hasn't got pace so he is always behind his opponents if they are fast. His football skills have never really been a benefit to the team. The only memory of him is a set shot 30 metres out that he puts out on the full.

Selwood was great at the start of last year and has had a year to get back to that form and it hasn't happened. I don't see the point in keeping him on our list. Such a shame that we get the dud Selwood. Doubt anyone would even give a 3rd round pick for him.

Austin, will only ever come in to the team when we have a lot of injuries if he stays on the list for next year.

Most likely going to lose Rischitelli or Brennan so that's 4 spaces on our list.

 

[Panthera]

Collier - Keep. Tall utility who is finding his feet but is still improving. There will be a few leave and this is not the year for wholesale changes.
Hanley - definate keeper. He has pace and kicking ability that everyone is banging on about. He is still learning the game at AFL level why the hell would we get rid of him now when he is just starting to look like he might pay off.
Hawksley - Keep. I have never been his biggest fan but he is another who is improving albeit slowly. The pressure will be on him next year but he offers us an improving depth player.
Johnstone - Let go. We are paying him a lot of money and the return we are getting is well below par. He will be 31 next year and should be outside the 22 in a fit side. It would be nice if the GC offered him a nice 1 year contract at the end of this year so we could recoup a draft pick.
Proud - I would keep but I can understand if he was cut lose. He has shown hardly anything in the chances he has gotten (although largely played out of position) and has continually had off-field issues. He will get a chance in the next few weeks and how he goes will decide his fate. Hopefully he plays in the midfield and is given every chance to succeed.
Raines - Let go. This 3 year deal is a bit of an urban legend I think. Everybody hears it on BF and assumes it is true. Staker was another who supposedly got a 3 year deal and I give that more credence than Raines who was unwanted by the worst team in the AFL.
Selwood - Let go. Definately on the outer with the coach and if you are not going to play someone with his experience when the team is going so poorly you just cut him lose and more on.
Sheldon - I would keep. Still young and seems like a kid willing to do what it takes. By the sound of it he looks like a different player when given a shot in the midfield so I hope he gets a couple of senior games there before the end of the year. We can't delist everyone.
Sherman - I wouldn't delist him but maybe look to trade him. He continues to frustrate but he does have a lot of talent. There will be some pretty serious words spoken in the offseason and he will have a clear idea about what he needs to do. Clearly in our best 22 when on song and so I retain him.
Stiller - Keep. I have been a little disappointed that Stiller has not played more this year after looking like he could be a good tagging option last year. Suffers in Voss' eyes because he does not win his own ball. With the capping of the interchange he could come right back into contention next year. Keep and see how things develop.

So that is only 3 from that list for me although I would have a few more on shakey ground and I would add Austin and McCulloch to the list of guys who would be lucky to be on the list come the start of next year. With that said it might not be just our choice as to how many spots we free up. It would not surprise me if Power retired and maybe even Black. That could have 5 draft picks in a draft already weakened by GC getting a lot of early picks and picking the eyes out of the younger guys last year.

Then you need to factor in guys who might request to leave the Lions. If there has been the turmoil inside the club that Hamilton has indicated then a few guys might be asked to be traded. This could easily be another one or two players.

Then there is also the GC to taken into account. What people have to consider is that we are almost certainly it sounds like going to lose at least one and maybe two players to the GC (for the second likely the player will specify the salary they want and go into the draft where only GC will be willing to meet the salary demands). So there is a spot or two which we have to draft for.

So without even delisting anyone who could still turnover 5 or 6 players. Combined with delistings that kind of turnover does nothing for development. Therefore I say keep the young guys and have an offseason focused on football fundamentals rather than running. Teach the younger players how to hit targets and win the clearances. They are the ones most likely to benefit and if you can get the habits ingrained in them at this stage it would help us enormously.

Quigs mate, I agree with much of what you contribute to the Lions thread but the above is what's wrong with the Lions and a fair % of it's supporters: accepting mediocrity

Collier, Hawksley, Hanley are not magically going to turn into Enright, Hunt & Mackie - they are a waste of space on our list!!!

Selwood, Sheldon, Stiller are not going to become Kelly, Corey & Ling.

The Lions can only develop players that have the attributes to become the same quality above listed Geelong players (let alone mention their A-graders). You may have been too young to see the 99-04 Lions, I don't know; they finished last in '98, but the whole football world knew they were a talented bunch

Unfortunately, the currently crop are not