WADA finds high tb4 levels in Bombers pair.

[TaylorMade]

Sorry if this has already been asked - I couldn't find it.

Is this considered a "positive" test?

Or does abnormal mean under the threshold but somewhat suspicious?

 

[Hollow Knight]

I still love to this day how Niall McKenzie let Dank dig himself deeper and deeper before dropping the mic.

NM: "So you used Thymosin Beta 4 on the players? What are the benefits of that?"

NM: "Can tell me in some more detail why you used Thymosin Beta 4?"

NM: "Isn't Thymosin Beta 4 used for different reasons than that? Why were you using Thymosin Beta 4 for other reasons?

NM: "Did the Thymosin Beta 4 deliver the results you were expecting?"

NM: "So what dosage of Thymosin Beta 4 did you give the players?"

NM: "Oh... by the way... did you know Thymosin Beta 4 is banned?"

Dank: "What? That's mindblowing. Are you sure?"

NM: "Yep, Thymosin Beta 4 is definitely banned."

Dank: "Oh, sorry, did you say Thymosin Beta 4, I thought you said something else?"

 

[CountryRace]

wow I have never seen those before, thanks for that

I'll ask you again

Why would dank admit to injecting efc with tb4 ?

Can you give me a answer?

Tough question isn't it brother?

Do you think the science of Steven dank is worth re-reading, given the news of the last day or so?

How do you put it all together? With a lose grip on reality no doubt

 

[lionbear]

All I have heard the last 3 years is there are no positive tests, one comes back showing abnormal amounts of said drug and that doesn't count.

I am confused.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I don't believe the type of TB4 Acetate alleged to have been used does occur naturally - all this talk of levels is crap.
There is no "normal" level for TB4 Acetate - it just shouldn't be there.

From the paper I posted earlier ;
"Ac-Tβ4(17-23) corresponds to the acetyl derivative of the major actin-binding site of Tβ4, that has been shown to promote angiogenesis, wound healing and hair growth in vitro and in animal models.[13] Therefore, the plausible rationale for use of TB-500 in doping lies in the role of Ac-Tβ4(17–23) in tissue growth and regeneration, which can be particularly important for recovery after intense workout or competition. The non-acetylated form of the peptide has been detected in vivo as an endogenous degradation product of Tβ4,[13] whereas the acetylated form is not described. N-terminal acetylation is a common strategy in drug development of peptides to increase the half-life, and therefore the activity, of peptides.[14] This acetylation should allow for a clear differentiation between endogenous and exogenous Tβ4 in biological samples, although metabolic deacetylation should be investigated. The absence of reference standards for most of the black market peptides, including Ac-Tβ4(17-23), presents a problem in doping control concerning the fulfillment of compound identification criteria. Moreover, some of these products contain different ingredients as officially claimed in the product description These differences include amino acid substitution, truncation, or other chemical modifications. Additionally, due to the lack of information on pharmacokinetic properties of this peptide and the ethical impossibility to administer these unknown preparations to healthy volunteers, its urinary or serum detection can generally only be postulated."

And from the article in the Age ;
"WADA said the samples from two players suggest external administration"

firstly, that article seems to be saying that it is difficult to spot this stuff in the samples. I dont really see where it says what you're claiming it does, but happy to have it dumbed down for me.

Secondly, you assert that it is a specific TB4 Acetate, you said you were "lead to believe this" in previous posts. Where are you getting that from?

 

[Broken_Chairs]

you're the one needing a coping mechanism - namely latching onto anything you can to make a song and dance out of

Lol "no I don't use coping mechanisms you use coping mechanisms"? Real mature, you've fallen apart Lance

Also, it's WADA's song & dance Lance not mine

 

[DapperDon]

I still love to this day how Niall McKenzie let Dank dig himself deeper and deeper before dropping the mic.

NM: "So you used Thymosin Beta 4 on the players? What are the benefits of that?"

NM: "Can tell me in some more detail why you used Thymosin Beta 4?"

NM: "Isn't Thymosin Beta 4 used for different reasons than that? Why were you using Thymosin Beta 4 for other reasons?

NM: "Did the Thymosin Beta 4 deliver the results you were expecting?"

NM: "So what dosage of Thymosin Beta 4 did you give the players?"

NM: "Oh... by the way... did you know Thymosin Beta 4 is banned?"

Dank: "What? That's mindblowing. Are you sure?"

NM: "Yep, Thymosin Beta 4 is definitely banned."

Dank: "Oh, sorry, did you say Thymosin Beta 4, I thought you said something else?"

Cheer TBD

I have always wanted to know what it was like going back in time.

 

[CountryRace]

Lol "no I don't use coping mechanisms you use coping mechanisms"? Real mature, you've fallen apart Lance

Also, it's WADA's song & dance Lance not mine

Wada and Albert

Takes two to tango

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I'll ask you again

Why would dank admit to injecting efc with tb4 ?

Can you give me a answer?

Tough question isn't it brother?

Do you think the science of Steven dank is worth re-reading, given the news of the last day or so?

How do you put it all together? With a lose grip on reality no doubt

maybe you can write to wada with your breakthrough? Show them the article that they have no doubt seen in the case file. It might just make the difference!

 

[CountryRace]

Cheer TBD

I have always wanted to know what it was like going back in time.

The evidence the German lab found

Is 100% related to the dank confession to Mckenzie of injecting efc, with wada banned PED

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Lol "no I don't use coping mechanisms you use coping mechanisms"? Real mature, you've fallen apart Lance

Also, it's WADA's song & dance Lance not mine

and yet you posted the drivel I responded to. Real mature Chairs. Why don't you stick to desperately trying to convince legal bloggers of your opinion?

 

[CountryRace]

maybe you can write to wada with your breakthrough? Show them the article that they have no doubt seen in the case file. It might just make the difference!

Maybe you can tell me why the German lab found the same drug, as dank confessed to injecting efc with ?

Deflect, deflect,, delusion

 

[Satan]

wow I have never seen those before, thanks for that

Its been posted once or twice before

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Maybe you can tell me why the German lab found the same drug, as dank confessed to injecting efc with ?

Deflect, deflect,, delusion

good grief, you don't even understand the issue at hand. They found potentially elevated levels of a naturally occurring substance. This is not a positive drug test if you weren't able to work that out

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Its been posted once or twice before

on occasion

 

[Milanista28]

Maybe you can tell me why the German lab found the same drug, as dank confessed to injecting efc with ?

Deflect, deflect,, delusion

Do you think these are positive tests to the drug TB4?

 

[CountryRace]

good grief, you don't even understand the issue at hand. They found potentially elevated levels of a naturally occurring substance. This is not a positive drug test if you weren't able to work that out

Oh Charlie Brown ...



A wada banned substance

That your mate dank said that he systematically injected into the efc, whoops

The afl 34 page charge sheet fits in pretty well too, whoops

Good luck

 

[Ancient Tiger]

I don't believe the type of TB4 Acetate alleged to have been used does occur naturally - all this talk of levels is crap.
There is no "normal" level for TB4 Acetate - it just shouldn't be there.

From the paper I posted earlier ;
"Ac-Tβ4(17-23) corresponds to the acetyl derivative of the major actin-binding site of Tβ4, that has been shown to promote angiogenesis, wound healing and hair growth in vitro and in animal models.[13] Therefore, the plausible rationale for use of TB-500 in doping lies in the role of Ac-Tβ4(17–23) in tissue growth and regeneration, which can be particularly important for recovery after intense workout or competition. The non-acetylated form of the peptide has been detected in vivo as an endogenous degradation product of Tβ4,[13] whereas the acetylated form is not described. N-terminal acetylation is a common strategy in drug development of peptides to increase the half-life, and therefore the activity, of peptides.[14] This acetylation should allow for a clear differentiation between endogenous and exogenous Tβ4 in biological samples, although metabolic deacetylation should be investigated. The absence of reference standards for most of the black market peptides, including Ac-Tβ4(17-23), presents a problem in doping control concerning the fulfillment of compound identification criteria. Moreover, some of these products contain different ingredients as officially claimed in the product description These differences include amino acid substitution, truncation, or other chemical modifications. Additionally, due to the lack of information on pharmacokinetic properties of this peptide and the ethical impossibility to administer these unknown preparations to healthy volunteers, its urinary or serum detection can generally only be postulated."

And from the article in the Age ;
"WADA said the samples from two players suggest external administration"

I made the same comment elsewhere. I'm not sure where this information about normal tb4 levels comes from. I've never read anything that suggests this is a known validated result. My understanding is that any measurable tb4 must come from exogenous administration. I maybe wrong, but all this talk about normal levels is without substance. I ask anybody to give me evidence to the contrary. I am always happy to change my mind given the right evidence.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I don't believe the type of TB4 Acetate alleged to have been used does occur naturally - all this talk of levels is crap.
There is no "normal" level for TB4 Acetate - it just shouldn't be there.

From the paper I posted earlier ;
"Ac-Tβ4(17-23) corresponds to the acetyl derivative of the major actin-binding site of Tβ4, that has been shown to promote angiogenesis, wound healing and hair growth in vitro and in animal models.[13] Therefore, the plausible rationale for use of TB-500 in doping lies in the role of Ac-Tβ4(17–23) in tissue growth and regeneration, which can be particularly important for recovery after intense workout or competition. The non-acetylated form of the peptide has been detected in vivo as an endogenous degradation product of Tβ4,[13] whereas the acetylated form is not described. N-terminal acetylation is a common strategy in drug development of peptides to increase the half-life, and therefore the activity, of peptides.[14] This acetylation should allow for a clear differentiation between endogenous and exogenous Tβ4 in biological samples, although metabolic deacetylation should be investigated. The absence of reference standards for most of the black market peptides, including Ac-Tβ4(17-23), presents a problem in doping control concerning the fulfillment of compound identification criteria. Moreover, some of these products contain different ingredients as officially claimed in the product description These differences include amino acid substitution, truncation, or other chemical modifications. Additionally, due to the lack of information on pharmacokinetic properties of this peptide and the ethical impossibility to administer these unknown preparations to healthy volunteers, its urinary or serum detection can generally only be postulated."

And from the article in the Age ;
"WADA said the samples from two players suggest external administration"

I've been just told that WADA believe due to the above, this is THE smoking gun.

 

[CountryRace]

I made the same comment elsewhere. I'm not sure where this information about normal tb4 levels comes from. I've never read anything that suggests this is a known validated result. My understanding is that any measurable tb4 must come from exogenous administration. I maybe wrong, but all this talk about normal levels is without substance. I ask anybody to give me evidence to the contrary. I am always happy to change my mind given the right evidence.

 

[Broken_Chairs]

and yet you posted the drivel I responded to. Real mature Chairs. Why don't you stick to desperately trying to convince legal bloggers of your opinion?

That drivel was simply highlighting the hilarious ever-changing stance of essendon supporters, desperately trying to convince themselves that everything's OK.

Not sure what the legal bloggers part of your comment means, apparently some sort of personal insult? I'm worried about you.

 

[Moshie The Mook]

All I have heard the last 3 years is there are no positive tests, one comes back showing abnormal amounts of said drug and that doesn't count.

I am confused.

The fact that abnormal amounts of tb4 were detected in testing does NOT change the fact that players were injected with tb4. I hope that clears up the confucian.

 

[jj1978]

To me the smoking gun would be moreso if part of the players interviews the 2 high abnormal players recalled receiving "injections" the day before or on the day of their urine samples.

Considering as well the staggering of injections given to players... eg: player A,B,C got TB4 on Monday, D,E on Tuesday, etc, etc, X,Y on Friday and Saturday morning the pee collectors came it would be fitting that only X,Y would have high readings....

Pieces of the puzzle all are starting to align as 90% of us thought they would... it's now all about what WADA can do and what CAS thinks...

 

[Milanista28]

Oh Charlie Brown ...



A wada banned substance

That your mate dank said that he systematically injected into the efc, whoops

The afl 34 page charge sheet fits in pretty well too, whoops

Good luck

Lol.

 

[matwt73]

I'm not sure that one coulds ay 618 is a miniscule sample size. Clinical trials have been done with signifcantly fewer people.

The appropriate size of a study is generally calculated by reference to number of factors, including the levels of natural variation, the anticpated effect

It is fully accepted that when establishing a base line mean, more verifiable data is better than less verifiable data but a formals tudy looking at 618 people is certainly not going to count as chopped liver. It might give a feasible range from which one could identify statistical outliers (the narrow ends of the bell curve) but also results which are beyond this and might be regarded as abnormal. It may then warrant further investigation as to what might have prompted those abnormal results.

What is interesting though is that their has been mention of exercise, and injury recovery effecting TB4 levels, and possibly accounting for raised levels. I imagine that diet, age, lifestyle would also factor in. Luckily we have an albeit small (27) test sample of full time, professional athletes between the ages of presumably 19- 30, so we can take some ofthose variables out. It may be that the abnormal that the tests speak of is abnormal within the test group. That 25 were within anticpated ranges and 2 were not.

Purely as hypothetical conjecture at this point: If we assume that abnormally raised level will only show up if TB4 has been taken in the last 24 hours or as a result of the age lifestyle and physical activity of the subject. And we have 25 subjects with similar age and lifestyle profile who show no abnormaly raised profile, then...

Fact is, wed on't know the variables. We know little more than we did yesterday. But the fact that 2 of 27 showed high levels is not necessarily bad news for Essendon. The fact that 25 of 27 showed no abnormal levels is not necessarily good news.