Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas Conflict

[Ghost Patrol]

He just did.

The misogyny built into this is sad. Are you seriously arguing that gender is a motivation in the current discussion? Where do these hot-takes come from? This is the first I have ever heard this one. But it plays into the misogynistic rhetoric of Jazny being rich and powerful and greedy so I am not surprised someone is trying to shovel it in to this current discussion somehow.

 

[Jazny]

Do you think the innocent civilians of Gaza being murdered by Israel in their tens of thousands are wealthy and powerful? Righto.

How did this response make sense in your mind?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Ah the old Marxist oppressed/oppressor dialectic. Jews got sympathy temporarily when they were perceived as the oppressed, but they’ve had the nerve to raise themselves out of this status and that can’t be tolerated.

Palestinians have been supported by the UN since 1947 and despite the billions being poured into them, they are poorer than ever. Why is that?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Ah the old Marxist oppressed/oppressor dialectic. Jews got sympathy temporarily when they were perceived as the oppressed, but they’ve had the nerve to raise themselves out of this status and that can’t be tolerated.

Palestinians have been supported by the UN since 1947 and despite the billions being poured into them, they are poorer than ever. Why is that?

It's because Israelis keep stealing and/or blowing up Palestinian assets.

Why do you keep ignoring the illegal occupation and apartheid?

 

[Jazny]

The misogyny built into this is sad. Are you seriously arguing that gender is a motivation in the current discussion? Where do these hot-takes come from? This is the first I have ever heard this one. But it plays into the misogynistic rhetoric of Jazny being rich and powerful and greedy so I am not surprised someone is trying to shovel it in to this current discussion somehow.

Thank you for calling it out finally, GP. Good contribution as always.

Here's a challenge, if someone can explain to me his comment about Jews using their history of persecution as "an excuse to bully the less powerful and wealthy" in a way that doesn't come across as a form of economic antisemitism, I will donate 100% of my Hasbara payments to a charity of the explainers choice.

What I won't accept are denials he was referring to Jews at all, but instead Israel or zionists or some such. Because the post he responded to was referencing the persecution throughoiut Jewish history, and the post he made referenced thousands of years and ancestry.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Why did you stop engaging properly with the debate and resort to this? I will just take it as you conceding those points.

Why did you ignore most of my post? Fatah tried all those things you mentioned, worked with Israel on security, and look where it got them.

The PLO renounced violence and recognized the State of Israel, its right to live in peace, and Israel kept building settlements the whole time.

The point I made was accurate and I am talking about the current Hamas-Israel war so I am referring to Gaza post withdrawal, which is the reality of the situation as it stands and is where any test of self defense would apply.

So you are happy to admit that Israel's occupation, population transfer, use of natural resources in the West Bank are all illegal?

Advisory opinions aren't legally binding and are there to clarify questions posed to them. Not to find guilt, but they can make recommendations and are used as to guide legal arguments. They have some weight, but are not the same as a formal hearing into a specific case.

The ICJ heard statements from 52 states and 3 international organisations to come to it's opinion. The largest number of participants in ICJs history.

This was a big deal.

The court findings treated Israeli activities in the West Bank and Gaza differently and it is explained why in the document. In the paragraph you referenced, the court is just reiterating that from a legal standpoint, the OPT includes the territory of Gaza, it's not saying that Israel's occupation of Gaza is legally the same as it's occupation of the West Bank. It does however make recommendations under this OPT umbrella term, but this point was controversial in the separate opinions of the judges for the very reason that the situation in Gaza and the OTP is different.

The advisory opinion is largely damning for Israel in the West Bank, but as for Israeli obligations in Gaza, the court found "that Israel’s withdrawal from the Gaza Strip has not entirely released it of its obligations under the law of occupation. Israel’s obligations have remained commensurate with the degree of its effective control over the Gaza Strip".

The reason this was so ambiguous, I gather, is so it could present it in a way to achieve consensus, as if you read the seperate opinions of the judges, some have expressed doubt about the legality merits of this finding even the way its worded. Of note in particular are Iwasawa and Celeveland as they both voted in favour of the relevant opinions in the end so they can hardly be thought of as rogue judges or some such.

So some judges believe there is no decision on whether Gaza was technically 'occupied' post withdrawal - though Israel still bound by laws of occupation.

Judge Cleveland thinks if they're not actively stealing land in Gaza, it's not illegal to pen them in and cut them off from the world. Great.

Are we seeing already that situation change wrt Israeli settlers in Gaza?

I don't see how my claim is astounding because it's basically in line with the advisory opinion and even softer than some of these judges say in their separate opinions.

It's astounding because you still seem to be claiming that Israel's occupation is not illegal.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Ah the old Marxist oppressed/oppressor dialectic. Jews got sympathy temporarily when they were perceived as the oppressed, but they’ve had the nerve to raise themselves out of this status and that can’t be tolerated.

Cringe.

Palestinians have been supported by the UN since 1947 and despite the billions being poured into them, they are poorer than ever. Why is that?

Why don't you tell us Dogs? Something racist by the sounds of it?

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Thank you for calling it out finally, GP. Good contribution as always.

Here's a challenge, if someone can explain to me his comment about Jews using their history of persecution as "an excuse to bully the less powerful and wealthy" in a way that doesn't come across as a form of economic antisemitism, I will donate 100% of my Hasbara payments to a charity of the explainers choice.

What I won't accept are denials he was referring to Jews at all, but instead Israel or zionists or some such. Because the post he responded to was referencing the persecution throughoiut Jewish history, and the post he made referenced thousands of years and ancestry.

This is a bit like calling people who believe Jews wield undue influence over the American political system antisemitic, only for AIPAC to blast all over their social media how much money they funnel to, and how successful they are at getting people elected.

Israelis love to bang on about how rich they are, how high-tech Israel is, how powerful their military. Seems a pretty innocuous observation to me.

 

[Jazny]

So you are happy to admit that Israel's occupation, population transfer, use of natural resources in the West Bank are all illegal?

Yes in the West Bank it seems so. I would need to see a really good argument from Israel to think otherwise.

So some judges believe there is no decision on whether Gaza was technically 'occupied' post withdrawal - though Israel still bound by laws of occupation.

...commensurate to the extent they occupy it. Super and deliberately ambiguous. The court would have been better off excluding Gaza altogether, then they could make a lot stronger points unanimously (except for maybe judge Sebutinde who disagreed with just about everything). Her separate opinion is worth reading too. She is scathing.

Judge Cleveland thinks if they're not actively stealing land in Gaza, it's not illegal to pen them in and cut them off from the world. Great.

Judge Cleveland voted with the majority on the relevant opinions. Not everyone who disagrees with you is evil, you need to relax and realise that the legal situation is really complex. The way you characterise everything is super biased.

It's astounding because you still seem to be claiming that Israel's occupation is not illegal.

From after the withdrawal to the Oct 7th the legality of the occupation is very debatable. I am not saying it's 100% not illegal if it were ever to be heard in court, I'm just not agreeing with your position that it is. Whether it's legal now would depend on the jus ad bellum for Israel taking control of it to the extent they have, which I think would probably mean its legal for the time being since after the war started.

Why did you ignore most of my post? Fatah tried all those things you mentioned, worked with Israel on security, and look where it got them.

It's not a good argument. It's got them a lot better recognition globally, the lives of the people living their are infinitely better than in Gaza, if Hamas stopped their terror and recognised Israel, you could see the global pressure on Israel to give Palestine a state would be much stronger.

If you want a two state solution and peace, you should want Hamas and other armed groups to stop terrorism and justifying Israeli armed responses. On the flip side, pro-Israeli people should be advocating for at least the cessation of settler activity in the West Bank if not the total withdrawal.

Israel needs to concede things too for peace to work.

 

[Jazny]

Israelis love to bang on about how rich they are, how high-tech Israel is, how powerful their military. Seems a pretty innocuous observation to me.

I get to keep my hasbara money for now, this failed the Israeli/Jew distinction. I think you implicitly knew if you said "Jews love to bang on..." instead of Israelis, then you're starting to sound a little antisemitic.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I get to keep my hasbara money for now, this failed the Israeli/Jew distinction. I think you implicitly knew if you said "Jews love to bang on..." instead of Israelis, then you're starting to sound a little antisemitic.

He's specifically talking about Israelis - Jews in Canada aren't occupying Palestine.

Bit antisemitic of you to claim otherwise really.

 

[Jazny]

He's specifically talking about Israelis - Jews in Canada aren't occupying Palestine.

Bit antisemitic of you to claim otherwise really.

Is Israel 1000s of years old? In his post and the post he responded to they are clearly talking about Jews.

 

[DapperDon]

Is Israel 1000s of years old? In his post and the post he responded to they are clearly talking about Jews.

Show me some DNA of current Jews to those of 1000 years ago who lived the land and I'll donate all my belongings to Bibi by hand.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Is Israel 1000s of years old? In his post and the post he responded to they are clearly talking about Jews.

They will tell you it's 2,000 years old?

 

[Jazny]

Show me some DNA of current Jews to those of 1000 years ago who lived the land and I'll donate all my belongings to Bibi by hand.

How is this relevant? I'm genuinely interested, please explain your thinking behind this.

 

[DapperDon]

How is this relevant? I'm genuinely interested, please explain your thinking behind this.

People laying claim to land through religion and religion alone.

The Western Jewish community have about as much right to the land that I do.

Now, I'm not saying to change that as we are far past that ever being a thing. Though It would be nice if they stopped killing others who live and have lived the land for the past millenia or two while they were on their extended vacation.

 

[Jazny]

People laying claim to land through religion and religion alone.

The Western Jewish community have about as much right to the land that I do.

Do you apply this standard to any westernized descendants of the displaced Palestinian diaspora's "right to return"?

Now, I'm not saying to change that as we are far past that ever being a thing. Though It would be nice if they stopped killing others who live and have lived the land for the past millenia or two while they were on their extended vacation.

Extended vacation is a real nice way to characterize forced displacement, constant persecution, and being subject to mass killings.

Do you realize how biased your telling of the story is? I mean I get everyone exaggerates a little, but the story you're telling is insanely biased. I'm wondering if you're aware of that.

 

[jason_recliner]

How did this response make sense in your mind?

Seriously? I never claimed it's a motivation, they were your words. I said it because that's what is happening, unless you believe Gazans are wealthy and powerful. ZEV used "fighting for life" in the context of and as an excuse for not caring what others think, even when they are bullying and killing poor and powerless neighbours in their tens of thousands, as though that fighting makes him and other Jews special and different (I disagree - practically all of us have ancestors who lived hard lives and fought hard, and many of us have fought our own battles to get where we are today). But not all of us think it's acceptable to murder tens of thousands of innocent women and children.

 

[faible]

Jews got sympathy temporarily when they were perceived as the oppressed, but they’ve had the nerve to raise themselves out of this status and that can’t be tolerated.

Woof. This is one of the worst takes yet from you.

Genocide can't be tolerated.

Never Again didn't mean 'never again except when it's us doing it'.

 

[faible]

I see Jazny has reached the 'any criticism of Israel is antisemitic' stage of his defence of a murderous regime.

 

[faible]

ZEV used "fighting for life" in the context of and as an excuse for not caring what others think

Funny that he only considers it relevant when it's Israelis fighting for their lives. Dead Palestinian kids don't count.

 

[Jazny]

I see Jazny has reached the 'any criticism of Israel is antisemitic' stage of his defence of a murderous regime.

Cringe

 

[jason_recliner]

Funny that he only considers it relevant when it's Israelis fighting for their lives. Dead Palestinian kids don't count.

To be fair to ZEV, the parents of murdered children probably don't care what he thinks either, they just want his government and the IDF to stop killing their children.

 

[DapperDon]

Do you apply this standard to any westernized descendants of the displaced Palestinian diaspora's "right to return"?

Extended vacation is a real nice way to characterize forced displacement, constant persecution, and being subject to mass killings.

Do you realize how biased your telling of the story is? I mean I get everyone exaggerates a little, but the story you're telling is insanely biased. I'm wondering if you're aware of that.

You are right I am biased in that Palestinians shouldn't be murdered for wanting to live.

 

[Jazny]

You are right I am biased in that Palestinians shouldn't be murdered for wanting to live.

Glad to see you put a lot of thought and effort into the whole situation you have such strong opinions about.