Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas - Hezbollah - Houthis

[DapperDon]

Unlike yourself I am prepared to look at the facts only here.

HRW report:

“I Can’t Erase All the Blood from My Mind”

The 236-page report, “‘I Can’t Erase All the Blood from My Mind’: Palestinian Armed Groups’ October 7 Assault on Israel,” documents several dozen cases of serious violations of international humanitarian law by Palestinian armed groups at nearly all the civilian attack sites on October 7. These...

www.hrw.org

There have only been a small number of civilians confirmed killed in crossfire.



Also, in an active terrorist incident, sometimes a soldier would have to make the difficult decision on whether taking out a couple of terrorists who hold a hostage who would go on to kill more civilians is justified. I'd hate to be in that position as a solider, you have only moments to make that call.


No different to what happens if terrorists were ti hijack a plane and attempt to crash it into a major capital city in order to cause thousands of deaths.


In that instance shooting down that plane would be absolutely lawful even if it meant the unfortunate death of civilians on board. That wouldn't be an example of "hannibal" at all.


It is quite ridiculous some posters are on here trying to use a small amount of civilian deaths caught up as collateral between the IDF and Hamas terrorists as a gotcha that Hamas didn't really kill that many people, it was really the IDF.

You have now reached the 'reasoning' stage of acceptance.

 

[jason_recliner]

It is quite ridiculous some posters are on here trying to use a small amount of civilian deaths caught up as collateral between the IDF and Hamas terrorists as a gotcha that Hamas didn't really kill that many people, it was really the IDF.

Who's doing this?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

If they weren't a pariah state (funny how all of the states on Hamas' sides are run by human rights abusing dictators) I believe they absolutely would go down this path but doing so now would leave Iran cut off and isolated from the rest of the world (apart from a few supporters in this thread who would be cheering).

You do realise Israel is a pariah state, yeah?

List of the 13 current Pariah States

13 countries that suffer from the sanctions imposed by the international community due to their mostly autocratic governments.

www.worlddata.info

Iran is listed as rogue, not pariah. The difference in definition is due to US defining rogues.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Someone was locked up in prison for chucking a nob of sand at Ben Gvir on the beach. Seriously.

Watched a video this morning of him pulling a gun on a carpark attendant for asking him not to park illegally.

 

[Kurve]

Is there a single reason I should believe that it did? Where are all the witnesses to this? Why on earth would we believe it, there is literally nothing to suggest it happened.

What you have done is start with narrative first, evidence later. I go with evidence first, and I don't care about narrative at all. So what evidence do we actually have? Nothing really. 14 suspected victims of IDF friendly fire that could be interepreted as the Hannibal Directive in action on Oct 7th, the majority of which the IDF claim were killed by AK-47 fire. A couple of claims on a podcast or interview that if you squint your eyes and believe hard enough, you could kind of interpret the way you want to. And Ghost Patrol's expert ballistic testimony based on images he saw on twitter.

From this, I am expected to believe that Israel was flying around in attack helicopters on October 7th shooting up their own civilians like crazy, and ever since they have been covering it up. Cool story.

Next.

They won't be able to cover it up. All they could do for now, would be to stall but there's already around 100 survivors of the Nova attack suing the government so I'd expect the families of the dead will pursue with their own actions wanting to know exactly where and how their loved ones died.

Many of those burnt cars piled up look like they've been strafed but Hamas RPGs could also do a lot of damage. It shouldn't be difficult to identify the registration on those vehicles to find out which ones if any, came in from Gaza, which ones are registered in Israel and who was in them.

It's a lot of investigative work but I think eventually it will get done.

There's also the suggestion somewhere, maybe Zev, that the big line of cars abandoned on the road out of Nova, were later strafed from the air as a matter of clearing of booby traps before they could be moved to storage.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Watched a video this morning of him pulling a gun on a carpark attendant for asking him not to park illegally.

This terrorist is an elected politician. Very weird.

 

[Kurve]

This terrorist is an elected politician. Very weird.

I've said it before, the settlers movement/s need to be declared a terrorist organisation/s and politically neutered. Without them, I don't think Netanyahu could have formed government.

 

[Kurve]

Watched a video this morning of him pulling a gun on a carpark attendant for asking him not to park illegally.

Yeh I've seen it. He comes across to me as unstable and unmanageable, he's poison.

 

[DapperDon]

Watched a video this morning of him pulling a gun on a carpark attendant for asking him not to park illegally.

Ben Gvir urged police to file indictments against the guards, saying they should be in prison for the sake of public safety

https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-mk-ben-gvir-pulls-gun-on-arab-security-guards-in-clash-over-parking/

People in this thread continue to excuse his actions.

 

[Zidane98]

It's understandable you continue to fail to address any of my points as you are unable. That's okay - continue to post your funny little bollocks, falsehoods and self-contradictions. Iran is a pariah state, eh? Do you know what that means? How about, they are "cut off and isolated from the rest of the world". i.e. they would have very little to lose by waging war against a militarily inferior state or non-state actor, especially if they considered that destruction of that state was in their interests. It's weird that they don't, and that all of their attacks using their world leading weaponry are ineffective, isn't it?

Actually, if you understood anything about modern warfare, and military technology and power, you'd understand how this could be so. I'm not convinced you even know what "ballistic" means (and, hence, why such weapons, even when hypersonic, achieve very little in military gains against an advanced defence force like the IDF).

And once again you fail to address the fact that the world's second most powerful military relies on Iran for supply of cruise / ballistic missiles and attack drones.

I wonder why they didn't get them from Israel instead.

It is also noted that you again ignored the global military strength rankings yet again which shows that Iran is superior militarily to Israel. Quite frankly it is bizarre you still continue to argue this point despite being absolutely wrong.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

And once again you fail to address the fact that the world's second most powerful military relies on Iran for supply of cruise / ballistic missiles and attack drones.

I wonder why they didn't get them from Israel instead.

It is also noted that you again ignored the global military strength rankings yet again which shows that Iran is superior militarily to Israel. Quite frankly it is bizarre you still continue to argue this point despite being absolutely wrong.

I don't think your military dick measuring site has considered that Israel has US warships at their beck and call.

 

[jason_recliner]

And once again you fail to address the fact that the world's second most powerful military relies on Iran for supply of cruise / ballistic missiles and attack drones.

I wonder why they didn't get them from Israel instead.

It is also noted that you again ignored the global military strength rankings yet again which shows that Iran is superior militarily to Israel. Quite frankly it is bizarre you still continue to argue this point despite being absolutely wrong.

Ok champ, here goes.

Russia (which is not as powerful as China militarily BTW) isn't able to purchase superior western and Israeli arms due to restrictions and sanctions.

The internet is full of listicles that aren't correct and your little link is one of them. The most basic critical analysis - Middle school level - can easily and quickly identify many, many reasons why (many but not all of which I've posted in this tedious exchange, and which you cannot respond to because it's beyond you to admit you made a ridiculous claim).

Happy?

 

[Zidane98]

I don't think your military dick measuring site has considered that Israel has US warships at their beck and call.

LOL

 

[Kurve]

People in this thread continue to excuse his actions.

To be fair, I haven't notcied anybody in this thread defending Ben Gvir. I don't think Zev's even gone that far.

 

[Zidane98]

To be fair, I haven't notcied anybody in this thread defending Ben Gvir. I don't think Zev's even gone that far.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[jason_recliner]

"War made us feel better about ourselves"! I wonder if these are the same people cheering for harsher restrictions and punishments on peace protesters at a weapons trade show

 

[Jazny]

The directive was given, there can be no doubt, but what the directive means these days no one seems to know.

Correct and I don't think there's ever been, even in its most wild interpretation, that its okay to endanger or kill civilians to prevent them being taken hostage.

I don't believe if they had known 100% they were killing Israelis they would have done it.

But if they can tell themselves its just Palestinian terrorists in that car, light it up, I don't think there was much hesitation.

Ok so your with me most of the way. You're just more willing to speculate that a large number were killed by friendly fire, whereas I am more willing just to wait for actual evidence.

Does it concern you that the evidence you are relying on though is based on a lot of conjecture? Wouldn't subsequent investigators who are responsible for identifying bodies be able to confirm that a number of these casualties were Israeli? Are they covering it up? Or just didn't bother investigating it properly?

I am not saying that your version is 100% wrong, at the moment I just don't have a good reason to believe that friendly fire was all that widespread and suggestions otherwise are relying on heavy amounts of speculation and other assumptions.

Then they announced ~600 of those were actually dead Palestinians. It wasn't Hamas killing themselves that's for sure, so that's a lot of KIA that the Israelis had no ID for while they were in their crosshairs.

How could Israel keep a running tab on how many enemy they have killed though? Were the IDF soldiers like Legolas and Gimli keeping a running count?

Head
Sand

Okay so what are we left with. No reason at all to believe attack helicopters killed a bunch of civilians at Nova, no good reason to believe the IDF account of the stand off at the house in be'eri is wrong in their finding that 12 of the 13 hostages were killed by terrorist small arms fire, the other by shrapnel from an indeterminate cause.

You might cry about believing the IDF, but these investigations can potentially be subject to legal scrutiny, so dismissing them altogether is just as, if not far more, ridiculous than taking them at their word. Also according to the Jewish Chronicle, separate forensic archeology done at the house came to a similar conclusion. It's hard to dismiss this, but at the same time I don't expect people to 100% believe it either. But remember, the burden of proof is on those making the positive claim that Israeli tank fire using the hannibal directive is responsible for the deaths of 13 hostages. The evidence we have is not even close to establishing that.

Until better evidence is available, I am dismissing the Be'Eri tank incident as a case of hannibal almost entirely apart from maybe the one killed by shrapnel.

So, out of the OHCHR report that found 14 deaths potentially attributable to incidents of hannibal, we have maybe 2 left. The tractor incident and 1 other at the above mentioned house. But even then were those really hannibal or just friendly fire?

From all this I am expected to believe that they IDF were just shooting up their own civilians left and right on October the 7th.

Pretty sure its not me with my head in the sand. You have picked a narrative you like, and have not even bothered to check it against reality.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

MENTAL TORTURE: INSIDE HAMAS’S VIDEO MACHINE

MENTAL TORTURE: INSIDE HAMAS’S VIDEO MACHINE

todayspaper.theaustralian.com.au

 

[Zidane98]

They won't be able to cover it up. All they could do for now, would be to stall but there's already around 100 survivors of the Nova attack suing the government so I'd expect the families of the dead will pursue with their own actions wanting to know exactly where and how their loved ones died.

Many of those burnt cars piled up look like they've been strafed but Hamas RPGs could also do a lot of damage. It shouldn't be difficult to identify the registration on those vehicles to find out which ones if any, came in from Gaza, which ones are registered in Israel and who was in them.

It's a lot of investigative work but I think eventually it will get done.

There's also the suggestion somewhere, maybe Zev, that the big line of cars abandoned on the road out of Nova, were later strafed from the air as a matter of clearing of boobie traps before they could be moved to storage.

It is prudent that one looks up factual information like this before going off claiming conspiracy theories with no evidence to back it up.

 

[Zidane98]

Correct and I don't think there's ever been, even in its most wild interpretation, that its okay to endanger or kill civilians to prevent them being taken hostage.

Ok so your with me most of the way. You're just more willing to speculate that a large number were killed by friendly fire, whereas I am more willing just to wait for actual evidence.

Does it concern you that the evidence you are relying on though is based on a lot of conjecture? Wouldn't subsequent investigators who are responsible for identifying bodies be able to confirm that a number of these casualties were Israeli? Are they covering it up? Or just didn't bother investigating it properly?

I am not saying that your version is 100% wrong, at the moment I just don't have a good reason to believe that friendly fire was all that widespread and suggestions otherwise are relying on heavy amounts of speculation and other assumptions.

How could Israel keep a running tab on how many enemy they have killed though? Were the IDF soldiers like Legolas and Gimli keeping a running count?

Okay so what are we left with. No reason at all to believe attack helicopters killed a bunch of civilians at Nova, no good reason to believe the IDF account of the stand off at the house in be'eri is wrong in their finding that 12 of the 13 hostages were killed by terrorist small arms fire, the other by shrapnel from an indeterminate cause.

You might cry about believing the IDF, but these investigations can potentially be subject to legal scrutiny, so dismissing them altogether is just as, if not far more, ridiculous than taking them at their word. Also according to the Jewish Chronicle, separate forensic archeology done at the house came to a similar conclusion. It's hard to dismiss this, but at the same time I don't expect people to 100% believe it either. But remember, the burden of proof is on those making the positive claim that Israeli tank fire using the hannibal directive is responsible for the deaths of 13 hostages. The evidence we have is not even close to establishing that.

Until better evidence is available, I am dismissing the Be'Eri tank incident as a case of hannibal almost entirely apart from maybe the one killed by shrapnel.

So, out of the OHCHR report that found 14 deaths potentially attributable to incidents of hannibal, we have maybe 2 left. The tractor incident and 1 other at the above mentioned house. But even then were those really hannibal or just friendly fire?

From all this I am expected to believe that they IDF were just shooting up their own civilians left and right on October the 7th.

Pretty sure its not me with my head in the sand. You have picked a narrative you like, and have not even bothered to check it against reality.

Pretty succinct summary here.

You have to question the motives of anyone who suggests that the IDF were going around massacring Israelis on Oct 7.

It just isn't true nor is there any evidence to even indicate as such.

 

[faible]

I love it, Zidane has gone so hard on this one thing, that he thinks he's got a slam dunk 'win' on because some website 'ranks' military based on some kind of metric, ignoring anything and everything else and trying to pretend it somehow discredits anything someone posts.

 

[faible]

Pretty succinct summary here.

You have to question the motives of anyone who suggests that the IDF were going around massacring Israelis on Oct 7.

It just isn't true nor is there any evidence to even indicate as such.

There's evidence that the IDF shoots people without clarifying who they are first. Even if they're shirtless, unarmed and waving a white flag.

Killing of Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Zidane98]

There's evidence that the IDF shoots people without clarifying who they are first. Even if they're shirtless, unarmed and waving a white flag.

Killing of Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This has been thoroughly discussed, you are well aware in the days preceding this Hamas members dressed as civilians murdered IDF soldiers via suicide bombings because they actually thought they were civilians and didn't shoot.

But let's not let facts get in the way of your narrative though.

 

[Kurve]

It is prudent that one looks up factual information like this before going off claiming conspiracy theories with no evidence to back it up.

It's a fresh article from the ABC, even if I'd thought whether or not Hannibal was ordered had been sorted out to 'no' but ..

If my son was dead or missing unaccounted for, I'd want to know everything. Last text messages, last geolocation, last physical sighting, who was he with, what car did he go in, where's the car now and I'd want to see it.

There's still some missing and unaccounted for, if not a lot that I can see, maybe it's possible they were hit by Israeli fire and incinerated with Hamas militants.

The families will find out.

 

[faible]

This has been thoroughly discussed, you are well aware in the days preceding this Hamas members dressed as civilians murdered IDF soldiers via suicide bombings because they actually thought they were civilians and didn't shoot.

But let's not let facts get in the way of your narrative though.

The facts are the IDF shot and killed Israeli civilians, whilst they were visibly shirtless, unarmed and waving a white flag.