Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas - Hezbollah - Houthis

[jason_recliner]

Not a great look.

What's not a great look, IMO, is:

• endless posts about legitimate but unrealised threats to Israel while always ignoring actual mass murder of Gazan citizens; and
• laughing emojis on posts about the number of Gazans murdered (this one not directed at you).

 

[Kurve]

From one of the articles posted by Festerz

DORON KADOSH is the military affairs correspondent at Israel’s Army Radio

At around 11am to 12pm, there came a third wave … that weren’t terrorists who came to loot, who came to kill, who came to kidnap. At the time, I’m sitting in the studio all day, where there really is a huge amount of chaos and I cannot believe that I am reporting what I am reporting.

This is where I struggle with the concept of “innocent” civilian deaths. No doubt young children are the very innocent, but non-terrorists - civilians - looting (this isn’t the first I’ve read about this), kidnapping, lining the streets of Gaza cheering over and spitting on the broken bodies being paraded in the back of utes, keeping hostages in their homes - where is the innocence? The mothers/families praising their sons for killing Jews and being rewarded with a “martyr’s pension” if the men/boys are killed.

Recent polls have revealed that support for Hamas in Gaza is as strong as ever.

Eliminating Hamas and their malignant influence is a must if there is to be any sort of future for Gaza.

I wouldn't trust any polls coming out of Gaza right now, when was the last one done btw?

There's potentially new information coming through that 80% of the deaths in Gaza are Hamas militants and family, so if that's true, then Hamas should be almost done in there. That's also significant for any future proceedings against Israel through the international courts.

I'll wait before posting, to see if any of our own verified news source pick this up.

 

[Kurve]

What's not a great look, IMO, is:

• endless posts about legitimate but unrealised threats to Israel while always ignoring actual mass murder of Gazan citizens; and
• laughing emojis on posts about the number of Gazans murdered (this one not directed at you).

Nobody's Very few would be ignoring the horrific number of deaths in Gaza but emotional manipulation only goes so far before posters get sick of being beaten over the head with it and it does nothing to progress the discussion, which is war crimes.

 

[jason_recliner]

Nobody's ignoring the horrific number of deaths in Gaza

I disagree. Certain posters are ignoring it IMO, including downplaying / justifying it to support their untenable positions (i.e. support/justification/excuses of/for war crimes).

 

[Kurve]

I disagree. Certain posters are ignoring it IMO, including downplaying / justifying it to support their untenable positions (i.e. support/justification/excuses of/for war crimes).

While others are downplaying the October 7 attack, with almost a complete disregard for the hostages.

The potential for the prosecution of war crimes is what is under discussion.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I wouldn't trust any polls coming out of Gaza right now, when was the last one done btw?

There's potentially new information coming through that 80% of the deaths in Gaza are Hamas militants and family, so if that's true, then Hamas should be almost done in there. That's also significant for any future proceedings against Israel through the international courts.

I'll wait before posting, to see if any of our own verified news source pick this up.

Well, people are trusting the numbers of casualties provided by the Hamas health ministry, which has a vested interest in inflating them where possible. The IDF uses very advanced technology to locate its targets, same in Lebanon. It also warns citizens of impending strikes, unless such warnings would defeat the purpose of the strike. Of course mistakes will be made but to call strikes indiscriminate is not very often accurate. Hence the extrapolation to “genocide” is a long way off the mark. Unless you are talking about Iran’s aims via their proxies.

 

[Zidane98]

Nobody's Very few would be ignoring the horrific number of deaths in Gaza but emotional manipulation only goes so far before posters get sick of being beaten over the head with it and it does nothing to progress the discussion, which is war crimes.

Exactly this. New information coming out of Gaza is up to 80% of all casualties in Gaza are either Hamas operatives or those directly linked and related to them.

This will obviously need verification but if it were to be true it would be pretty clear evidence that Israel is targeting Hamas, not civilians in Gaza.

 

[DapperDon]

Well, people are trusting the numbers of casualties provided by the Hamas health ministry, which has a vested interest in inflating them where possible. The IDF uses very advanced technology to locate its targets, same in Lebanon. It also warns citizens of impending strikes, unless such warnings would defeat the purpose of the strike. Of course mistakes will be made but to call strikes indiscriminate is not very often accurate. Hence the extrapolation to “genocide” is a long way off the mark. Unless you are talking about Iran’s aims via their proxies.

The same advanced technologies that missed the incoming massacre on Oct 07?

Might not be that advanced

 

[DapperDon]

Exactly this. New information coming out of Gaza is up to 80% of all casualties in Gaza are either Hamas operatives or those directly linked and related to them.

This will obviously need verification but if it were to be true it would be pretty clear evidence that Israel is targeting Hamas, not civilians in Gaza.

Any links to this information and who it's coming from?

 

[Zidane98]

I disagree. Certain posters are ignoring it IMO, including downplaying / justifying it to support their untenable positions (i.e. support/justification/excuses of/for war crimes).

Who isn't calling for Israel to be held accountable for war crimes? I believe even Zev has supported Israel being brought to account for war crimes and he/she is easily the most biased pro Israel poster in this thread.

 

[Zidane98]

Well, people are trusting the numbers of casualties provided by the Hamas health ministry, which has a vested interest in inflating them where possible. The IDF uses very advanced technology to locate its targets, same in Lebanon. It also warns citizens of impending strikes, unless such warnings would defeat the purpose of the strike. Of course mistakes will be made but to call strikes indiscriminate is not very often accurate. Hence the extrapolation to “genocide” is a long way off the mark. Unless you are talking about Iran’s aims via their proxies.

To be fair, the total number of casualties in Gaza is reasonably accurate.


It would help if the Gazan MOH released the statistics on how many deaths were Hamas operatives as they clearly are in possession of this data.

 

[Festerz]

New information coming out of Gaza is up to 80% of all casualties in Gaza are either Hamas operatives or those directly linked and related to them.

Not sure how it is remotely possible in such a densely populated urban area how militant casualties could be as high as 80% of total deaths when the Israeli offensive has involved heavy artillery supported by air and sea bombardment.

Prior to launching the invasion Israel military leaders acknowledged the fact that the nature of Hamas embedding in tunnels and homes across the country meant that routing out the estimated 30,000 armed Hamas combatants would necessarily result in large civilian losses.

There's also the issue of whether the goal of eliminating Hamas under such circumstances was ever going to be an achievable goal. Which places the whole strategic purpose of the invasion, let alone its legitimacy, under a huge question mark.

The following article from the Action on Armed Violence comes from an obvious non-military violence perspective but makes legitimate/valid points about the 80% claim, including the undeniable fact that collective punishment, defined as punishing individuals for the actions of others (in this case, relatives of combatants), violates international humanitarian law.

https://aoav.org.uk/2024/critically...-in-gaza-are-80-of-the-dead-hamas-operatives/

 

[jason_recliner]

Who isn't calling for Israel to be held accountable for war crimes? I believe even Zev has supported Israel being brought to account for war crimes and he/she is easily the most biased pro Israel poster in this thread.

Plenty of posts by several people justifying horrendous unprecedented bombing and civilian death toll, and also downplaying and justifying the bombing campaign, including but not limited to making specious comparisons to other conflicts. I can't remember if any are yours but I don't believe you have not seen the posts.

 

[Zidane98]

Not sure how it is remotely possible in such a densely populated urban area how militant casualties could be as high as 80% of total deaths when the Israeli offensive has involved heavy artillery supported by air and sea bombardment.

Prior to launching the invasion Israel military leaders acknowledged the fact that the nature of Hamas embedding in tunnels and homes across the country meant that routing out the estimated 30,000 armed Hamas combatants would necessarily result in large civilian losses.

There's also the issue of whether the goal of eliminating Hamas under such circumstances was ever going to be an achievable goal. Which places the whole strategic purpose of the invasion, let alone its legitimacy, under a huge question mark.

The following article from the Action on Armed Violence comes from an obvious non-military violence perspective but makes legitimate/valid points about the 80% claim:


https://aoav.org.uk/2024/critically...-in-gaza-are-80-of-the-dead-hamas-operatives/

Not all military casualties. Hamas operatives plus those directly linked to them.


Clearly Gazan authorities have this information but choose to not release it. On the other side of the coin, despite GP incorrectly claiming Israel didn't differentiate between IDF & civilian deaths on Oct 7 there is clear and concise data on to who died on Oct 7 and whether they were civilians or IDF.

I'd agree that continued military action against Hamas is now likely to achieve little with the organisation weakened to a point where there is little to no chance they could organise another Oct 7 style terror attack right now.

Time to push a ceasefire and political pressure on Hamas to ensure they do not govern Gaza going forward which would be a disaster for Palestinians & Israelis alike.

 

[Kurve]

Any links to this information and who it's coming from?

A (Israeli?) journalist with a source inside Hamas. It's not strong enough to be presented as a fact in here but it might be an indication of things to come.

We'll see.

 

[Zidane98]

Plenty of posts by several people justifying horrendous unprecedented bombing and civilian death toll, and also downplaying and justifying the bombing campaign, including but not limited to making specious comparisons to other conflicts. I can't remember if any are yours but I don't believe you have not seen the posts.

Yes, civilian death toll is horrendous. Both parties should be brought to account in a war crime tribunal for that and to ensure we don't see another war again.

 

[Zidane98]

A (Israeli?) journalist with a source inside Hamas. It's not strong enough to be presented as a fact in here but it might be an indication of things to come.

We'll see.

Yep, will be keeping an eye on seeing how this develops.

 

[Kurve]

Yep, will be keeping an eye on seeing how this develops.

The percentage is proposed as being indicative of IDF precision and it might be but if each Hamas militant for example, is living at home in a small apartment with 8 other people who aren't with Hamas, then the other 8 would be counted as civilian casualties?

Which is unacceptable at 8:1?

 

[Zidane98]

The percentage is proposed as being indicative of IDF precision and it might be but if each Hamas militant for example, is living at home in a small apartment with 8 other people who aren't with Hamas, then the other 8 would be counted as civilian casualties

In an ideal world there would be no civilian casualties. I would hope that there were warnings for civilians sent to evacuate the area prior to taking out Hamas operatives. If there was no civilian harm mitigation undertaken that would be a serious breach of IHL and a war crime for me.

 

[Kurve]

It feels really gross to even use the words "acceptable casualties". Disgusting, when none of it's acceptable.

 

[Festerz]

Clearly Gazan authorities have this information but choose to not release it.

As outlined in that report I linked in my previous post, the Gaza Ministry of Health (MoH) recently released a comprehensive casualty report covering deaths from October 7 last year through August 31. This report documents 34,344 deaths, breaking down the demographics of the deceased.

Prior to October 2023 the MOH data was regarded as relatively accurate and transparent. It was based on recording bodies that passed through the hospital morgue system operated by the Ministry of Health (MoH). For each person killed, the MoH recorded the name, the age, the sex and a national ID number. The national ID number is particularly important because these ID numbers are assigned by the Israeli authorities, who maintain the Gazan population register.

The reliability of the initial casualty recording system in Gaza has been tested by independent third parties. The transparency organisation Airwars, which is a member of the ECC Casualty Recorders Network, has scoured news outlets and social media for reports of lethal incidents and checked whether named individuals killed in these incidents match names appearing on the October 26 MoH data release. On 24 July Airwars released a major report on this research, finding that about 75% of the names they found on media/social media also appear on the October 26 list. This research provides good two-way validation of accuracy, both for the MoH system and for media/social media reporting in Gaza.

However, with the rising intensity of the conflict over 2024 and the Fog of War stuff I talked about in an earlier post, the accuracy and reliability of the MOH data or from Israeli sources can no longer be regarded as accurate because death reporting takes a distant second place to survival in a war zone during a major conflict.

The MOH itself announced at the start of the year that because some of its hospitals had closed bodies were no longer consistently passing through the morgues, and so could not be recorded in the previous manner. The MoH recognised the detrimental impact this was having on the reliability of its casualty records. One can only imagine what the damage to critical infrastructure has done to that capacity in the months since.

It only adds to my anger at using a ledger approach to tally up deaths on one side of the conflict compared to deaths on the other. Reporting on total deaths of innocent victims is a legitimate discussion point for a crime thread but point scoring via ledger book accounting to say which side has suffered most is just infantile, especially as a binary point scoring exercise when the total number of innocents killed, maimed , tortured or held hostage has become so large and and when the accuracy of the data can no longer be guaranteed.

This report provides a pretty thorough examination of the subject of data accuracy on casualty numbers coming from Gaza:

The breakdown of casualty recording in Gaza since October 2023 - Every Casualty Counts

Professor Mike Spagat, Chair of Every Casualty Counts, explains how and why the casualty recording system in Gaza has deteriorated, and what we can still learn from the information available.

everycasualty.org

 

[Zidane98]

It feels really gross to even use the words "acceptable casualties". Disgusting, when none of it's acceptable.

The whole war is unacceptable.

 

[Festerz]

It feels really gross to even use the words "acceptable casualties". Disgusting, when none of it's acceptable.

When the goal of a nation's political leaders is the total destruction of another nation or group of peoples then it seems to me that mass deaths of civilians was a question of when not if.

When viewed against the tens and hundreds of thousands of civilians who are likely to be killed, maimed or their lives forever destroyed, the assassination or overthrow of those leaders, even if they are democratically elected, to promote peace and compromise surely becomes the more palatable option.

 

[Jazny]

I wouldn't trust any polls coming out of Gaza right now, when was the last one done btw?

Even so, the polls show that a large majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas. There was a poll that also showed that among Palestinian supporters of October 7th, a large majority of them didn't believe Hamas targeted civilians during the attack, which goes to show the power of misinformation. It also shows a nuance in that support for Hamas does not equal support for terrorism necessarily.

"85% have not seen videos showing atrocities committed by Hamas against Israeli civilians on October 7, and only 7% say Hamas committed atrocities against Israeli civilians"

This shows the power of information and misinformation. If they knew the truth I am sure a large drop in support for Hamas would occur.

 

[Jazny]

The percentage is proposed as being indicative of IDF precision and it might be but if each Hamas militant for example, is living at home in a small apartment with 8 other people who aren't with Hamas, then the other 8 would be counted as civilian casualties?

Which is unacceptable at 8:1?

There is no blanket rule, but 8:1 would almost certainly be considered unacceptable for low level targets that provide very little military advantage, like if he was just sitting in his house playing Fortnite, you couldn't blow up his entire family to kill him despite him being a legitimate military target.

But 8:1 would be acceptable according to law in some cases under IHL (though there is no hard and fast rule about casaulty ratios).T his is where the principle of proportionality comes in. If the expected damage to civilian infrastructure and civilians is proportionate to the military advantage gained by the attack, then you can legally carry out the attack.

This means it's illegal to directly target civilians, but it is legal to carry out strikes and attacks that could and do result in the killing of civilians as long as the attacks were in accordance with proportionality and distinction. It is case by case, so very murky and why in many cases, unless you have access to sufficient information, it's very hard to tell what airstrike or attack would be a violation of IHL.

And all the above means that WAR is horrible. It is not a nice thing where people gather in fields and shake hands before the start of play and say "may the best men win". War is bad, civilians are killed in horrible ways, war should be avoided!

People talk about war like its somehow a neutral thing, and only war crimes are bad. When war itself is bad. That's why it is only justified legally and morally really in self-defence.