Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas - Hezbollah - Houthis

[Jazny]

How would the Palestinians (who AFAIK don't have a "racist charter") achieve this through peaceful resistance? What evidence is there that this works?

We are talking the legitimacy of October 7th as a form of resistance, which was primarily carried out by Hamas who absolutely have a racist charter.

Peaceful resistance has worked in the past. Indian Independence, American Civil Rights movements, anti-apartheid movements in South Africa all to varying degrees practiced peaceful resistance movements that worked.

The better question is what evidence is there that terrorism works? Particularly against a much more powerful opponent like Israel. Probably not a good idea to continually give them justification for war.

 

[DapperDon]

We are talking the legitimacy of October 7th as a form of resistance, which was primarily carried out by Hamas who absolutely have a racist charter.

Peaceful resistance has worked in the past. Indian Independence, American Civil Rights movements, anti-apartheid movements in South Africa all to varying degrees practiced peaceful resistance movements that worked.

The better question is what evidence is there that terrorism works? Particularly against a much more powerful opponent like Israel. Probably not a good idea to continually give them justification for war.

Is it only Palestenians that need to act peacefully in this?

One would argue they have been much more peaceful in the West Bank that many Israelis, how many more murders, beatings, imprisionments do they need to do before their peacefullness is more accepted?

 

[Jazny]

Is it only Palestenians that need to act peacefully in this?

One would argue they have been much more peaceful in the West Bank that many Israelis, how many more murders, beatings, imprisionments do they need to do before their peacefullness is more accepted?

Yes and why do you think the international community has been far more supportive towards Palestinians in the West Bank than they are for Hamas in Gaza? Of course Israel should be abiding by IHL and importantly IHRL in the West Bank, anyone saying otherwise is unhinged. Agreed?

I don't get why people think that Hamas in Gaza needed to carry out October 7th in order to end a security blockade. Bizarre and counterproductive reasoning.

 

[Zidane98]

Yes. A civilian populace deprived of food, water, shelter and sanitation for a year, indiscriminately bombed, burned, and maimed, are surely up for the fight. Not sure if serious or...

You don't hold the government representing them who lived in luxury as billionaires off the people's money declaring outright war against a neighbouring state responsible at all? Hamas leadership were not deprived of these things by the way. It is their responsibility to ensure all citizens under their governance get these things and the best way to do that is by not stealing from the state to enrich themselves and declare outright war on its occupying neighbour.

Not sure if you're serious about Gazans not being allowed to hold Hamas accountable along with Israel for their suffering.

 

[Zidane98]

How would the Palestinians (who AFAIK don't have a "racist charter") achieve this through peaceful resistance? What evidence is there that this works?

The Hamas charter is outright racist.

 

[DapperDon]

Yes and why do you think the international community has been far more supportive towards Palestinians in the West Bank than they are for Hamas in Gaza? Of course Israel should be abiding by IHL and importantly IHRL in the West Bank, anyone saying otherwise is unhinged. Agreed?

I don't get why people think that Hamas in Gaza needed to carry out October 7th in order to end a security blockade. Bizarre and counterproductive reasoning.

I personally haven't seen anyone here agree that what Hamas did was ok or needed, just they understand why it came about. That doesn't make Oct7 right nor does it make them a Hamas sympathizer. From what I have seen the main arguing point seems to be around why do people think Oct7 gives Israel a right to level an entire city? Why do people cry for 1200 dead Israelis and then cheer 40 thousand dead Palestenians? This isn't solely directed at you, just the general vibe from 'your side' in this thread so to speak.

 

[DapperDon]

The Hamas charter is outright racist.

Of course it is, they are a terrible unhinged group of fear mongering terrorists.

Which came into power through Bibi, let's not forget that part.

 

[DapperDon]

You don't hold the government representing them who lived in luxury as billionaires off the people's money declaring outright war against a neighbouring state responsible at all? Hamas leadership were not deprived of these things by the way. It is their responsibility to ensure all citizens under their governance get these things and the best way to do that is by not stealing from the state to enrich themselves and declare outright war on its occupying neighbour.

Not sure if you're serious about Gazans not being allowed to hold Hamas accountable along with Israel for their suffering.

If they could get out of Gaza while Hamas was causing them pain I bet they would try, unlucky for them their neighbour fenced them in and keeps them in prison like conditions.

 

[Zidane98]

If they could get out of Gaza while Hamas was causing them pain I bet they would try, unlucky for them their neighbour fenced them in and keeps them in prison like conditions.

who's talking about getting out of Gaza? talking about rising up against Hamas, holding them responsible for their misery. Bearing in mind the total blockade of Gaza began only after Hamas killed off / evicted any Palestinian political opposition in the 2006 civil war.

 

[Zidane98]

Of course it is, they are a terrible unhinged group of fear mongering terrorists.

Which came into power through Bibi, let's not forget that part.

This isn't true, Hamas was an evolution of the Egyption muslim brotherhood, a radical islamic group that has been around in Egypt since 1928.

 

[Bostonian]

You would have a powerless people subjugated by an authoritarian criminal State and unable to resist. As has already been shown in this thread that's not how law works.

You just described most of the Middle East.

 

[DapperDon]

This isn't true, Hamas was an evolution of the Egyption muslim brotherhood, a radical islamic group that has been around in Egypt since 1928.

I didn't say he started them, they came into controlling power due to his actions. He wanted to stop Abbas from gaining a Palestenian State and now here we are.

 

[DapperDon]

who's talking about getting out of Gaza? talking about rising up against Hamas, holding them responsible for their misery. Bearing in mind the total blockade of Gaza began only after Hamas killed off / evicted any Palestinian political opposition in the 2006 civil war.

With what? All the guns Israel allow them to have?

Christ, they get shot by the IDF for holding a stick. Imagine how many would be mown down walking with an assault rifle.

 

[Zidane98]

It seems for the moment Hamas is being run by 5 person committee in Gaza.

From BBC:

"The committee will be made up of Khalil al-Hayya, Khaled Meshaal, Zaher Jabarin, Muhammad Darwish, head of the Shura Council, and a fifth individual whose identity remains undisclosed."


Interesting as to who the fifth individual would be.

Hamas plans running an election campaign in March on its new leader but has no interest in running a political election in Gaza for governance of Gaza strip.

 

[Zidane98]

I didn't say he started them, they came into controlling power due to his actions. He wanted to stop Abbas from gaining a Palestenian State and now here we are.

Not always.. From 2009:

Netanyahu Backs Palestinian State, With Caveats (Published 2009)

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu endorsed the idea of a Palestinian state for the first time, but Palestinians immediately rejected his conditions.

www.nytimes.com

This changed to rejecting a Palestinian state in 2015 and again in 2023 when he got back in power.


When Bibi wasn't in charge there were plenty of opportunities / offers of two state agreements.

 

[faible]

who's talking about getting out of Gaza? talking about rising up against Hamas, holding them responsible for their misery. Bearing in mind the total blockade of Gaza began only after Hamas killed off / evicted any Palestinian political opposition in the 2006 civil war.

Gaza–Israel barrier - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Your grasp of history is very limited. The Palestinians were well and truly oppressed prior to 2006.

 

[Zidane98]

Your grasp of history is very limited. The Palestinians were well and truly oppressed prior to 2006.

Mr strawman is back from holidays it seems.


There was no total blockade until Hamas took over. The post you quoted literally says as such.

 

[faible]

Mr strawman is back from holidays it seems.


There was no total blockade until Hamas took over. The post you quoted literally says as such.

So selective. ‘No total blockade’ and glossing over the decades of oppression.

Netanyahu got Sinwar. You kept telling us it would end there. It hasn’t.

 

[Zidane98]

So selective. ‘No total blockade’ and glossing over the decades of oppression.

Netanyahu got Sinwar. You kept telling us it would end there. It hasn’t.

You sound disappointed.

 

[faible]

You sound disappointed.

Episode 374 of ‘Zidane making shit up’.

 

[treeebeard]

Okay I am glad you at least won't stand by that part of your post. But "for those playing at home" can you please explain how this:

...in any way supports the idea that October 7th was a legitimate form of resistance. Protocol 1 is explicitly stating that IHL applies to those armed conflicts. Meaning its not legitimate under international law to massacre civilians in a targeted attack like October 7th in the situations that protocol 1 covers.

UNGA 37/43 does not legitimize terrorism or violations of IHL in any way either. Again, this resolution is not international law, and it's not even endorsing terrorism. Why bring this up? I know opinion pieces in Al Jazeera make this argument, but it's just wrong. Sorry. There have been UNGA resolutions explicitly condemning terrorism and breaches of IHL leading to the loss of civilian lives. The general assembly is not endorsing or legitimizing terrorism or breaches of IHL.

So exactly how is October 7th a form of resistance? Aside from it being an illegitimate, illegal, and immoral form of resistance.

It's pretty straight forward. Resistance is about causing instability in civil order amongst the occupying state. Did October 7th achieve this? Tick

 

[Jazny]

It's pretty straight forward. Resistance is about causing instability in civil order amongst the occupying state. Did October 7th achieve this? Tick

Do you agree it was illegal, immoral, and illegitimate act of terrorism? That there is nothing in any internationally recognised law or resolution that could possibly legitimize October 7th as an acceptable form of resistance?

I fail to see what October 7th achieved unless the goal was senseless violence which led to the complete decapitation of Hamas, bringing a horrific war to the people of Gaza, and Hamas truly embarrassing themselves on the world stage. If anything, Israel seems to have a steely resolve after October 7th, they have done nothing but humiliate the paper tiger terrorists that attacked them on all fronts ever since from a military stand point.

 

[treeebeard]

How would the Palestinians (who AFAIK don't have a "racist charter") achieve this through peaceful resistance? What evidence is there that this works?

Yeah, the protest tents haven't helped the Bedouin retain their land against the JNF. I'm not specifically aware of any efforts in the West to help them either.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Do you agree it was illegal, immoral, and illegitimate act of terrorism? That there is nothing in any internationally recognised law or resolution that could possibly legitimize October 7th as an acceptable form of resistance?

I fail to see what October 7th achieved unless the goal was senseless violence which led to the complete decapitation of Hamas, bringing a horrific war to the people of Gaza, and Hamas truly embarrassing themselves on the world stage. If anything, Israel seems to have a steely resolve after October 7th, they have done nothing but humiliate the paper tiger terrorists that attacked them on all fronts ever since from a military stand point.

Israel probably has the best economy out of all the pariah states.

Russia is larger, sure. But Israel is unique among it's peers.

 

[treeebeard]

Do you agree it was illegal, immoral, and illegitimate act of terrorism? That there is nothing in any internationally recognised law or resolution that could possibly legitimize October 7th as an acceptable form of resistance?

I fail to see what October 7th achieved unless the goal was senseless violence which led to the complete decapitation of Hamas, bringing a horrific war to the people of Gaza, and Hamas truly embarrassing themselves on the world stage. If anything, Israel seems to have a steely resolve after October 7th, they have done nothing but humiliate the paper tiger terrorists that attacked them on all fronts ever since from a military stand point.

I already did. To quote myself "Clearly, no one is adhering to IHL, neither the occupier or the occupied"

I'm no international law expert, but perhaps the only element of October 7th that has claims to be considered legal would be the attack on Nahal Oz military base. I don't think I've seen anyone say the attack on the kibbutz residents was acceptable. But then, I can't say I've read every post in the thread.

The impacts also extend to the damaging of Israel's international reputation. I've never seen this much anti-Israel sentiment in the west. May not lead anywhere significant as the main player is bound to Zionist dogma, just as they were when Truman ran the show. The impact to their economy has been significant, as it has to the stability of the "intellectual" segment of their population.