Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas - Hezbollah - Houthis

[Zidane98]

Unlikely. Escalation more likely.

View attachment 2163545

Unfortunately you are probably right.


Trump's two state proposal while he was in office was nothing short of disgraceful. There was been plenty of mediation attempts, cease fire proposals passed by the Biden administration. I'm not sure Trump will be anywhere near as diplomatic.

 

[Zidane98]

Trump proposal






Clinton Parameters




Ohlert peace offer (last Israeli leader to agree two state solution):



I doubt Trump will be doing any favors soon for the Palestinians going off the above proposals. More important is getting rid of Netanyahu and his gang of far right nationalists in power.

 

[Kurve]

Okay, keep the personal attacks and character analysis down and address the issue thanks.

 

[Zidane98]

Trump is one of the worst possible people to have as the US president right now. I hope there is enough sane people in Israeli parliament and Trumps' US advisors that this plan never happens.

Some of the established settlements in the West Bank are probably going to end up being parts of land swaps for a two state solution. Annexing all of it as Israeli territory could set back any possible peace process. It's like taking some of the Palestinians best bargaining chips off the table.

Would be terrible for the peace process. Only real far right arseholes in Israel could possibly think it's a good idea.


Get a two state solution going, get a bilateral agreement for annexations / land swaps. Until then Israel has no business annexing any territory.

 

[JB1975]

Trump is one of the worst possible people to have as the US president right now. I hope there is enough sane people in Israeli parliament and Trumps' US advisors that this plan never happens.

Some of the established settlements in the West Bank are probably going to end up being parts of land swaps for a two state solution. Annexing all of it as Israeli territory could set back any possible peace process. It's like taking some of the Palestinians best bargaining chips off the table.

Putting our antagonistic beginning behind us...

I see no real want for a two-state solution, especially in Israel. Everything Israel does in Gaza and West Bank is antithetical to a Palestinian state.

 

[Zidane98]

Putting our antagonistic beginning behind us...

I see no real want for a two-state solution, especially in Israel. Everything Israel does in Gaza and West Bank is antithetical to a Palestinian state.

See literally right above your post for Israel's two state offer in 2008. Likud doesn't want a solution but most other parties do and once Likud is given the boot hopefully a solution can be agreed, actioned in such a way that it is irreversible.

 

[JB1975]

See literally right above your post for Israel's two state offer in 2008. Likud doesn't want a solution but most other parties do and once Likud is given the boot hopefully a solution can be agreed, actioned in such a way that it is irreversible.

I saw it. That was 2008. It didn't happen in 2008 and the prospect of a two-state solution is more distant that it's ever been.

The proliferation of Israeli settlements in the West Bank has long suggested that it won't be part of a peace process. The current campaign in Gaza suggests the same, albeit in a very different way, although the discussion of Israeli settlements in Gaza has certainly begun.

The Knesset shows no tolerance for the notion of a two-state solution and nor does Israeli public opinion, which had trouble accepting such an outcome before October 7 and is less likely to accept it now.

 

[Jazny]

Putting our antagonistic beginning behind us...

I see no real want for a two-state solution, especially in Israel. Everything Israel does in Gaza and West Bank is antithetical to a Palestinian state.

It's not popular and both parties are going to need to make serious concessions to each other to allow it to happen. This is why removing all of Palestine's bargaining chips is a bad idea.

 

[JB1975]

It's not popular and both parties are going to need to make serious concessions to each other to allow it to happen. This is why removing all of Palestine's bargaining chips is a bad idea.

The Knesset passed a resolution in the middle of the year against the formation of a Palestinian state. It deems a prospective Palestine as an existential threat.

In such circumstances, and given Israel's actions in Gaza and West Bank, I feel certain that it will never happen unless the US deems it necessary for their own strategic policy.

 

[Zidane98]

I saw it. That was 2008. It didn't happen in 2008 and the prospect of a two-state solution is more distant that it's ever been.

The proliferation of Israeli settlements in the West Bank has long suggested that it won't be part of a peace process. The current campaign in Gaza suggests the same, albeit in a very different way, although the discussion of Israeli settlements in Gaza has certainly begun.

The Knesset shows no tolerance for the notion of a two-state solution and nor does Israeli public opinion, which had trouble accepting such an outcome before October 7 and is less likely to accept it now.

This is disinformation. There are far right nutters in Israel that want to settle Gaza but they do not represent official government policy in any way. Much in the same way Pauline Hanson's policies do not reflect what the average aussie wants.

All of Netanyahu's statements reflect that Israel has no intentions of permanently occupying or governing Gaza post war.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-let-me-be-clear-israel-has-no-intention-of-displacing-gazas-population/

That's just one of many.

To suggest that Israel has begun discussing settlements in Gaza is no different to saying that Hamas / Iran has begun discussing settlements in Israel with their open declarations of wanting to destroy the state of Israel and Hamas' "River to the sea" mantra.

Also misleading about the Knesset. Here's Yair Lapid, as recently as 2022 to debunk thisw

Israeli Prime Minister Lapid backs two-State solution

Prime Minister Yair Lapid on Thursday said a two-State solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was “the right thing” for Israel, but he cautioned that a future Palestinian state must not be “another terror base”.

news.un.org

“Despite all the obstacles…a large majority of Israelis support the vision of this two-State solution. I am one of them”, he said, on the sole condition that “a future Palestinian state will be a peaceful one,” and not another terror base that threatens the country’s very existence.


“An agreement with the Palestinians, based on two states for two peoples, is the right thing for Israel’s security, for Israel’s economy and for the future of our children,” he stated.


It would be more accurate to suggest Likud does not want a two state solution. Many in the Knesset do and when Likud are in the minority again it is far more likely to happen.

 

[Zidane98]

Whatever happens in the Knesset one thing is certain - Oct 7 terror attack does not help the peace process in any way. It makes peace significantly less likely, especially when you have Hamas saying it was the right thing to do and Iran openly expressing their desire to wipe Israel off the map.

It's pretty obvious now that the leadership of Hamas never had the interests of Palestine or Palestinian people at all in their actions not just in the Oct 7 terror attack but ever since they've governed Gaza. Jihadist islamic groups are a serious threat to peace & stability, wherever they operate war follows. Firstly, they declared war on their own when they killed off / drove out any Palestinian political opposition in 2007.. Then they proceeded to make themselves personally rich off the back of Gaza's economy & people, ordering terror attacks from their luxury villas in Qatar safe from any reprisals they are responsible for while proceeding to militarise Gaza, spend a fortune on attacking Israel year after year instead of investing in the people of Gaza all to satisfy the desires of their backers Iran & Qatar.

 

[faible]

All of Netanyahu's statements reflect that Israel has no intentions of permanently occupying or governing Gaza post war.

He's definitively stated (multiple times) that Israel should have indefinite security control over all lands west of Jordan (e.g. the West Bank and Gaza) including an Israel controlled 'buffer-zone' between Gaza and Egypt.

Believing Netanyahu's public statements is pretty pointless, given how often they clash with the actions of the IDF under his Government.

 

[JB1975]

This is disinformation. There are far right nutters in Israel that want to settle Gaza but they do not represent official government policy in any way. Much in the same way Pauline Hanson's policies do not reflect what the average aussie wants.

All of Netanyahu's statements reflect that Israel has no intentions of permanently occupying or governing Gaza post war.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-let-me-be-clear-israel-has-no-intention-of-displacing-gazas-population/

That's just one of many.

To suggest that Israel has begun discussing settlements in Gaza is no different to saying that Hamas / Iran has begun discussing settlements in Israel with their open declarations of wanting to destroy the state of Israel and Hamas' "River to the sea" mantra.

Also misleading about the Knesset. Here's Yair Lapid, as recently as 2022 to debunk thisw

Israeli Prime Minister Lapid backs two-State solution

Prime Minister Yair Lapid on Thursday said a two-State solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was “the right thing” for Israel, but he cautioned that a future Palestinian state must not be “another terror base”.

news.un.org

“Despite all the obstacles…a large majority of Israelis support the vision of this two-State solution. I am one of them”, he said, on the sole condition that “a future Palestinian state will be a peaceful one,” and not another terror base that threatens the country’s very existence.


“An agreement with the Palestinians, based on two states for two peoples, is the right thing for Israel’s security, for Israel’s economy and for the future of our children,” he stated.


It would be more accurate to suggest Likud does not want a two state solution. Many in the Knesset do and when Likud are in the minority again it is far more likely to happen.

It's not 'disinformation'. The levelling of Gaza makes large parts of it uninhabitable without a massive investment of infrastructure, so it's hardly wild to suggest that the voices talking about settlement now will become more prominent in the near future.

How on earth is it misleading to point out that the Knesset has (on more than one occasion) voted against the idea of a Palestinian state?

And you're suggesting that most Israelis support a two-state solution? On what basis? Only a minority thought that a two-state solution was viable before October 7; it would be a negligible minority now.

Israelis have grown more skeptical of a two-state solution

Only 35% of Israelis believe that Israel and an independent Palestine can coexist peacefully, down from 44% in 2017.

www.pewresearch.org

The US pays lip service to a two-state solution, as do others, but lip service is all it is. Most people in the Middle East know this but it seems safer to perpetuate the lie.

 

[Demons09]

Gaza is very much an ethnic cleansing, given the fact that it's directed at citizens. That's been obvious for quite a while now.

Yeah I don’t know how Hamas have been getting away with it.

 

[Zidane98]

It's not 'disinformation'. The levelling of Gaza makes large parts of it uninhabitable without a massive investment of infrastructure, so it's hardly wild to suggest that the voices talking about settlement now will become more prominent in the near future.

How on earth is it misleading to point out that the Knesset has (on more than one occasion) voted against the idea of a Palestinian state?

And you're suggesting that most Israelis support a two-state solution? On what basis? Only a minority thought that a two-state solution was viable before October 7; it would be a negligible minority now.

Israelis have grown more skeptical of a two-state solution

Only 35% of Israelis believe that Israel and an independent Palestine can coexist peacefully, down from 44% in 2017.

www.pewresearch.org

The US pays lip service to a two-state solution, as do others, but lip service is all it is. Most people in the Middle East know this but it seems safer to perpetuate the lie.

Of course it is disinformation.

It is absolutely not the policy of the Knesset to occupy and govern Gaza post war. That is a simple fact. You're choosing to pick statements from far right nutters which is the equivalent of likening what Pauline Hansons states to what Australians actually want. You know all of this too.

The facts are that Israel's PM in 2022 openly stated Israel's support for a two state solution for both peoples to live alongside in peace. No amount of information you selectively pick and choose changes this. A two state offer was made in 2008, it wasn't accepted.

You're also clearly selective with the information you choose to post so I'm going to post a poll conducted by the Palestinian Centre for Poll Survey & Research, a Palestinian think tank based in Ramallah:

Joint Israeli-Palestinian Poll 32 , June 2009 | PCPSR

www.pcpsr.org

Results are 59% of Israelis support a two state solution, 36% dont and the rest are indiffrerent.

Morever to this a far more obvious, larger obstacle is the government responsible for Gaza being in power who committed a terror attack over a year ago that continues to this day, are proud of it and said they'll do it again until Israel is destroyed, backed by Iran who share the same rhetoric.


Until Hamas is removed for good further discussions of relations are a near on impossibility.

 

[JB1975]

Whatever happens in the Knesset one thing is certain - Oct 7 terror attack does not help the peace process in any way. It makes peace significantly less likely, especially when you have Hamas saying it was the right thing to do and Iran openly expressing their desire to wipe Israel off the map.

It's pretty obvious now that the leadership of Hamas never had the interests of Palestine or Palestinian people at all in their actions not just in the Oct 7 terror attack but ever since they've governed Gaza. Jihadist islamic groups are a serious threat to peace & stability, wherever they operate war follows. Firstly, they declared war on their own when they killed off / drove out any Palestinian political opposition in 2007.. Then they proceeded to make themselves personally rich off the back of Gaza's economy & people, ordering terror attacks from their luxury villas in Qatar safe from any reprisals they are responsible for while proceeding to militarise Gaza, spend a fortune on attacking Israel year after year instead of investing in the people of Gaza all to satisfy the desires of their backers Iran & Qatar.

There's a number of points or observations which can be made from this.

The October 7 terror attack hindered rather than helped the cause of peace. That seems clear.

The slaughter committed by Israel since October 7 has made a further mockery of any lasting peace.

Israel has agency over the leadership in Gaza and West Bank. It funneled (or more specifically, allowed Qatar to funnel) millions of dollars to Hamas in order to prop up the militant and unelected regime. At the same time, Netanyahu made life more difficult for the PA in the West Bank.

Israel played politics, trying to stoke more militant Palestinian voices and shutting down the moderates. It can't keep doing that.

Jihadist groups are a security threat to Israel, but the threat (a) does not justify the genocidal campaign and (b) does not go away because of a genocidal campaign. It makes it worse.

 

[JB1975]

Results are 59% of Israelis support a two state solution, 36% dont and the rest are indiffrerent.

The poll is from 2009. 2009! It is utterly ridiculous to rely on this as evidence of contemporary thinking.

 

[JB1975]

Of course it is disinformation.

It is absolutely not the policy of the Knesset to occupy and govern Gaza post war. That is a simple fact. You're choosing to pick statements from far right nutters which is the equivalent of likening what Pauline Hansons states to what Australians actually want. You know all of this too.

The facts are that Israel's PM in 2022 openly stated Israel's support for a two state solution for both peoples to live alongside in peace. No amount of information you selectively pick and choose changes this. A two state offer was made in 2008, it wasn't accepted.

Try not to deliberately misrepresent my comments. My discussion of the Knesset was relevant to my argument that that there is little or no prospect of a two-state solution.

I admit that evidence of intended settlement is more circumstantial.

You know and I know that a PM statement from 2022 means absolutely nothing. Sell that s*** elsewhere.

 

[Zidane98]

There's a number of points or observations which can be made from this.

The October 7 terror attack hindered rather than helped the cause of peace. That seems clear.

The slaughter committed by Israel since October 7 has made a further mockery of any lasting peace.

Israel has agency over the leadership in Gaza and West Bank. It funneled (or more specifically, allowed Qatar to funnel) millions of dollars to Hamas in order to prop up the militant and unelected regime. At the same time, Netanyahu made life more difficult for the PA in the West Bank.

Israel played politics, trying to stoke more militant Palestinian voices and shutting down the moderates. It can't keep doing that.

Jihadist groups are a security threat to Israel, but the threat (a) does not justify the genocidal campaign and (b) does not go away because of a genocidal campaign. It makes it worse.

Jihadist groups are a threat to peace in general in the ME. Not just to Israel / Palestine. Israel has no power of who governed Gaza, that's ridiculous. Hamas got into power then killed off any Palestinian opposition to themselves. Qatar & the Palestinian economy funds Hamas, not Israel.

Better off Israel isolates Hamas than they also gain power in West Bank which would be an absolute disaster for Israelis & Palestinians alike. The only winners in this instance would be Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah.

 

[JB1975]

Jihadist groups are a threat to peace in general in the ME. Not just to Israel / Palestine. Israel has no power of who governed Gaza, that's ridiculous. Hamas got into power then killed off any Palestinian opposition to themselves. Qatar & the Palestinian economy funds Hamas, not Israel.

Better off Israel isolates Hamas than they also gain power in West Bank which would be an absolute disaster for Israelis & Palestinians alike. The only winners in this instance would be Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah.

The article I linked clearly details the influence Israel played in Gaza.

Shlomo Brom, a former deputy to Israel’s national security adviser, told the New York Times that an empowered Hamas helped Netanyahu avoid negotiating over a Palestinian state, saying the division of the Palestinians helped him make the case that he had no partner for peace in the Palestinians, thus avoiding pressure for peace talks that could lead to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state.

To suggest the Israel has no such influence or that it hasn't abused that influence is a lie.

Edit: This is before considering the many ways in which Israeli policies make the lives of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank harder, which is rather influential itself.

 

[faible]

The poll is from 2009. 2009! It is utterly ridiculous to rely on this as evidence of contemporary thinking.

Welcome to trying to discuss something with Zidane.

 

[JB1975]

Welcome to trying to discuss something with Zidane.

F*** me.

Reality isn't always pleasant and it can be a bit overrated, but fronting with a poll from 15 years ago while dismissing one from September 2023 loses sight of it completely.

 

[jason_recliner]

Of course it is disinformation.

It is absolutely not the policy of the Knesset to occupy and govern Gaza post war. That is a simple fact. You're choosing to pick statements from far right nutters which is the equivalent of likening what Pauline Hansons states to what Australians actually want. You know all of this too.

The facts are that Israel's PM in 2022 openly stated Israel's support for a two state solution for both peoples to live alongside in peace. No amount of information you selectively pick and choose changes this. A two state offer was made in 2008, it wasn't accepted.

You're also clearly selective with the information you choose to post so I'm going to post a poll conducted by the Palestinian Centre for Poll Survey & Research, a Palestinian think tank based in Ramallah:

Joint Israeli-Palestinian Poll 32 , June 2009 | PCPSR

www.pcpsr.org

Results are 59% of Israelis support a two state solution, 36% dont and the rest are indiffrerent.

Morever to this a far more obvious, larger obstacle is the government responsible for Gaza being in power who committed a terror attack over a year ago that continues to this day, are proud of it and said they'll do it again until Israel is destroyed, backed by Iran who share the same rhetoric.


Until Hamas is removed for good further discussions of relations are a near on impossibility.

iGNORING THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GAZANS KILLED AND DISPLACED.

 

[faible]

iGNORING THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GAZANS KILLED AND DISPLACED.

Netanyahu must be really bad at not displacing Gazans if that was his goal.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

iGNORING THE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF GAZANS KILLED AND DISPLACED.

Yes that's unfortunate, but don't you dare accuse Netanyahu of war misdemeanors.

/z