Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas - Hizbullah - Houthis

[jason_recliner]

While some on here are triggered, with much consternation, whinging, and wringing of hands, by theoretical war crimes that might possibly potentially happen one day in the future...

Two more UNIFIL peacekeepers injured in Israeli fire on southern Lebanon base​

UNIFIL says two of its troops have been injured in explosions near an observation tower in southern Lebanon, the result of continued Israeli fire at their position. UN officials also voiced concern that an Israeli offensive in northern Gaza might affect the second phase of a polio vaccination campaign.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10...keepers-injured-in-southern-lebanon/104464592

 

[Jazny]

Israel has a litany of laws that constitute apartheid, which began with the JNF law and continued developing laws to oppress since then.

What do you think apartheid means? It's not just any racially discriminatory policy. Discriminatory policies are still in place all over the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean the countries that have discriminatory policies are responsible for apartheid.

The JNF was originally set up to encourage Jewish migration, the mens rae aspect of apartheid would be pretty hard to make the case that the organisation was designed with "the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them”.

Regardless, lands owned by the JNF are managed by the ILA, which cannot discriminate based on race according to Israeli law. Israel's supreme court in the 2000s ruled that Arabs have equal rights to lands controlled by the Israel Lands Authority which is the governmental body that controls these leases including the JNF. So while you can be against the existence of the JNF and argue it's a form of discrimination, it's hard to argue it constitutes apartheid. Particularly when Israeli law has systems in place to dismantle discriminatory policies, which it seems to do in within Israel proper.

I mean this is my understanding as a westerner, I don't live in Israel, ZEV might be able to tell me if I got anything wrong. But from my reading this seems to be the case.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

What do you think apartheid means? It's not just any racially discriminatory policy. Discriminatory policies are still in place all over the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean the countries that have discriminatory policies are responsible for apartheid.

The JNF was originally set up to encourage Jewish migration, the mens rae aspect of apartheid would be pretty hard to make the case that the organisation was designed with "the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them”.

Regardless, lands owned by the JNF are managed by the ILA, which cannot discriminate based on race according to Israeli law. Israel's supreme court in the 2000s ruled that Arabs have equal rights to lands controlled by the Israel Lands Authority which is the governmental body that controls these leases including the JNF. So while you can be against the existence of the JNF and argue it's a form of discrimination, it's hard to argue it constitutes apartheid. Particularly when Israeli law has systems in place to dismantle discriminatory policies, which it seems to do in within Israel proper.

I mean this is my understanding as a westerner, I don't live in Israel, ZEV might be able to tell me if I got anything wrong. But from my reading this seems to be the case.

So you think all those human rights lawyers at all those different human rights organisations are wrong?

 

[ZEV]

What do you think apartheid means? It's not just any racially discriminatory policy. Discriminatory policies are still in place all over the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean the countries that have discriminatory policies are responsible for apartheid.

The JNF was originally set up to encourage Jewish migration, the mens rae aspect of apartheid would be pretty hard to make the case that the organisation was designed with "the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them”.

Regardless, lands owned by the JNF are managed by the ILA, which cannot discriminate based on race according to Israeli law. Israel's supreme court in the 2000s ruled that Arabs have equal rights to lands controlled by the Israel Lands Authority which is the governmental body that controls these leases including the JNF. So while you can be against the existence of the JNF and argue it's a form of discrimination, it's hard to argue it constitutes apartheid. Particularly when Israeli law has systems in place to dismantle discriminatory policies, which it seems to do in within Israel proper.

I mean this is my understanding as a westerner, I don't live in Israel, ZEV might be able to tell me if I got anything wrong. But from my reading this seems to be the case.

Pretty spot on.

This is an answer I gave earlier in the year on the subject.

Do you mean Arab/Palestinian Israeli's or from the Palestinian occupied territories?

Either way, assuming they come to terms with a private seller there are no restrictions on private land sales.

It gets trickier with State owned land. 80% of the area. That is leased to Jewish and Arab Israeli's. Arab Israeli's are more likely to receive favourable terms

Alternatively, if a Palestinian were to sell land in Gaza or the West Bank to a Jew, the seller could be subject to execution under PA laws.

 

[Jazny]

So you think all those human rights lawyers at all those different human rights organisations are wrong?

Can you use the arguments that they make to specifically argue against anything I said in that post? If you can, I will look into it. Don't just lazily post entire articles from Amnesty International that mainly talk about apartheid allegations in the West Bank. My post was not about that. Just pick out some arguments by human rights lawyers or groups that talk about apartheid in Israel proper that directly contradict what I said and then we can discuss if those particular authors or legal scholars are wrong.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Can you use the arguments that they make to specifically argue against anything I said in that post? If you can, I will look into it. Don't just lazily post entire articles from Amnesty International that mainly talk about apartheid allegations in the West Bank. My post was not about that. Just pick out some arguments by human rights lawyers or groups that talk about apartheid in Israel proper that directly contradict what I said and then we can discuss if those particular authors or legal scholars are wrong.

Happy for you to go to The Hague and argue this one on behalf of Israel, Jazny

Send us a postcard while you are there!

World Court Finds Israel Responsible for Apartheid

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) issued an advisory opinion on July 19, 2024, with significant consequences for human rights protections in Palestine under Israel’s 57-year occupation. The opinion stems from a December 2022 request by the United Nations General Assembly to the court to...

www.hrw.org

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf

 

[Jazny]

Happy for you to go to The Hague and argue this one on behalf of Israel, Jazny

Send us a postcard while you are there!

World Court Finds Israel Responsible for Apartheid

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) issued an advisory opinion on July 19, 2024, with significant consequences for human rights protections in Palestine under Israel’s 57-year occupation. The opinion stems from a December 2022 request by the United Nations General Assembly to the court to...

www.hrw.org

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf

Ghost Patrol my goodness, how many times do you have to be told to read beyond the headline. That ICJ advisory opinion judgement is about the settler policy in the West Bank has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. Reread what I wrote, read what you wrote, read the ICJ opinion, and come back to me with an argument.

I am really looking forward to a discussion over what the ICJ concluded in their advisory opinion, and what a separate committee on the elimination of racial discrimination found this year in their Palestine vs Israel case, but first I would like to see if you can actually make an argument against anything I said.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Ghost Patrol my goodness, how many times do you have to be told to read beyond the headline. That ICJ advisory opinion judgement is about the settler policy in the West Bank has absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about. Reread what I wrote, read what you wrote, read the ICJ opinion, and come back to me with an argument.

I am really looking forward to a discussion over what the ICJ concluded in their advisory opinion, and what a separate committee on the elimination of racial discrimination found this year in their Palestine vs Israel case, but first I would like to see if you can actually make an argument against anything I said.

So you want to segregate the argument into one specific area?

 

[Jazny]

So you want to segregate the argument into one specific area?

I know you don't read articles, but surely you must read the posts you respond to, right? Yes the argument was about apartheid within the state of Israel itself, not the OTP. I said 'Israel proper' to delineate it from all the disputed territories it occupies according to the UN. Treebeard knew what I was talking about, hence he brough up the JNF.

Israel proper is not an apartheid state, the whole argument should really be about whether Israel's discriminatory policies in the West Bank qualify as apartheid.

Do you agree or disagree with the post you originally responded to now that has been cleared up?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I know you don't read articles, but surely you must read the posts you respond to, right? Yes the argument was about apartheid within the state of Israel itself, not the OTP. I said 'Israel proper' to delineate it from all the disputed territories it occupies according to the UN. Treebeard knew what I was talking about, hence he brough up the JNF.

Do you agree or disagree with the post you originally responded to now that has been cleared up?

I don't think your post is relevant unless Israel withdraws from the occupied territories.

Hypothetically not apartheid if you exclude segregated areas is a weird argument, you must admit.

 

[Jazny]

I don't think your post is relevant unless Israel withdraws from the occupied territories.

Don't respond to it then. I only said it because Bostonian was arguing Israel isn't responsible for apartheid because their policies within the state of Israel don't qualify as apartheid. I was pointing out that's not necessarily the case because even though I agree with him that there seems to be no apartheid in Israel proper, the real argument about whether Israel is guilty of apartheid is with respect to their settler policy in the West Bank. You might somewhat agree with me on this based on your arguments for apartheid which seem to concentrate on the West Bank.

Then in response to that, Treebeard argued that there are laws in Israel that are tantamount to apartheid. I disagreed with him on that, then you chimed in.

 

[Kurve]

Here's another who's been prosecuted in France for crimes in Yemen.

Peter Cherif, 42, had been on trial in Paris since mid-September for "belonging to a criminal terrorist association" while fighting for Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) in Yemen from 2011 to 2018.

During that time he is suspected of training his Paris childhood friend Cherif Kouachi, who along with his brother Said perpetrated the January 7, 2015 massacre at Charlie Hebdo's offices in the French capital -- for which AQAP later claimed responsibility.

The trial judge sentenced Cherif to life behind bars, with a minimum of 22-years to be served.

Cherif also was accused of being part of a criminal gang that held three French aid workers hostage for five months in Yemen in 2011.

French jihadist linked to Charlie Hebdo attackers sentenced to life in prison

Peter Cherif, a suspected French jihadist who was close to the perpetrators of the 2015 Charlie Hebdo massacre, was sentenced on Thursday to life in prison. Cherif fought for al Qaeda in the Arabian…

www.france24.com

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I know you don't read articles, but surely you must read the posts you respond to, right? Yes the argument was about apartheid within the state of Israel itself, not the OTP. I said 'Israel proper' to delineate it from all the disputed territories it occupies according to the UN. Treebeard knew what I was talking about, hence he brough up the JNF.

Do you agree or disagree with the post you originally responded to now that has been cleared up?

There is no real delineation as far as apartheid is concerned.

Jews living anywhere in Palesitne, including those living in more than 200 settlements built throughout the West Bank, maintain their right to political participation despite living outside Israel's 'sovereign' territory.

They can vote, run for office and promote whatever agendas they like. They don't even have to cross the Green Line to vote - there's polling stations in Hebron, Ramat Aviv, Haifa, Jaffa etc.

It's one political regime throughout Palestine, controlling the lives of all of them.

The (once) 5.5 million Palestinians living under military occupation under this same regime are not allowed to vote or run for office, and have no representation in the political process which dictates their existence.

It's been admitted by multiple past Israeli PMs and Mossad directors - apartheid is not a maybe.

HRW, UNESCWA, ICJ, B'Tselem, AI, OHHCR, on and on.

Even the participation of the 1.7 million Palestinians within Israel is monitored and controlled. Under the Basic Law legislated in 2002, a candidate or list of cadidates can be barred from running for the Knesset if their actions or goals include 'negation of the existence of the state of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.'

The Election Committee uses this clause repeatedly to disqualify Palestinian candidates because any struggle for actual equality apparently denies Israel's existence as a Jewish state. The supremacy and superiority of Jewish people in Israel is enshrined in law. The nation state law alone defines Israel as a nation for Jews only:

“The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.”​

This clearly puts Israelis into two 1st and 2nd class citizens.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

How are they an apartheid regime when their political system has non-Jewish politicians and parties?

They literally have a communist Muslim politician in the Knesset.

That wouldn't happen under an apartheid regime.

That's actually not a measure of apartheid, nor something that disproves it. It's certainly a commonly trotted out talking point. Israel would remove that Muslim from the Knesset if they said or did anything to deny the supremacy of Jewish people in Israel.

If you don't believe Israel have been committing human rights violations in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another, with the intention of maintaining that system, then there's no hope you'll ever get it.

 

[Jazny]

It's been admitted by multiple past Israeli PM and Mossad directors - apartheid is not a maybe.

HRW, UNESCWA, ICJ, B'Tselem, AI, OHHCR, on and on.

Not quite. The ICJ advisory opinion stopped short of finding Israeli policies in the West Bank "apartheid" specifically. They carefully worded that section, probably to get consensus. They worded it as a breach of article 3 of CERD which relates to racial segregation and apartheid. Two of the judges in their separate opinions did interpret that section as Israel's action being tantamount to apartheid, but this was not unanimous nor how its worded in the body of the document.

Judge Nolte's separate opinion really highlights this point:

It is an advisory opinion, but it is very strange that they don't even discus the dolus specialis element of Israel's policies in the West Bank which is a necessary and core part of what makes apartheid... well the crime of 'apartheid' in international law.

Judge Isawa's opinion:

This makes that section of the advisory opinion pretty weak really. It's not a strong finding with respect to apartheid.

Kind of annoying because advisory opinions are meant to clarify the legality of the questions posed. I feel this advisory opinion failed on that question. Though I guess I feel like I learned more from the separate opinions and my general understanding of the arguments is much better than it was before I read the opinions.

I would say though that the argument for apartheid in the West Bank is not easy to dismiss. I am not convinced it constitutes the crime of apartheid but I wouldn't write the argument off completely either.

 

[treeebeard]

What do you think apartheid means? It's not just any racially discriminatory policy. Discriminatory policies are still in place all over the world, but that doesn't necessarily mean the countries that have discriminatory policies are responsible for apartheid.

The JNF was originally set up to encourage Jewish migration, the mens rae aspect of apartheid would be pretty hard to make the case that the organisation was designed with "the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them”.

Regardless, lands owned by the JNF are managed by the ILA, which cannot discriminate based on race according to Israeli law. Israel's supreme court in the 2000s ruled that Arabs have equal rights to lands controlled by the Israel Lands Authority which is the governmental body that controls these leases including the JNF. So while you can be against the existence of the JNF and argue it's a form of discrimination, it's hard to argue it constitutes apartheid. Particularly when Israeli law has systems in place to dismantle discriminatory policies, which it seems to do in within Israel proper.

I mean this is my understanding as a westerner, I don't live in Israel, ZEV might be able to tell me if I got anything wrong. But from my reading this seems to be the case.

Apartheid involves Institutionalised forms of racial domination and discrimination. The JNF is just one example of many, which clearly has occured over decades, within Israel. The fact they took it to the OPT via their proxy Himnuta is even more disgraceful, but a topic for another day.

Yosef Weitz, a JNF leader, clearly laid out their intent early days - “There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer all of them… not one village must be left… for this goal funds will be found.”

Let's be honest here, it began even before it was enshrined in to law, Zionist militias cleansed Palestine between 1947-49, illegally evicting hundreds of thousands of civillians and destroying their villages. Once again, the Brits were complicit, helping with training and arms.

Post Nakba, the pace picked up and i suppose you could call it ethnic cleansing rather than apartheid, but i feel the two are intertwined. The JNF snubbed UN Resolution 194, stole tracts of Palestinian land and developed forests and parks in their place. Even going so far as to plant trees of European origin in them. The reasons twofold - to prevent the return of traditional owners, and to create a European style landscape, more familiar to Zionist newcomers.

Similarities to the Native Lands Act in South Africa are disturbing. The fact that people in western nations support it, is even more disturbing. But not totally surprising, as we are an inherently racist, coloniser driven society outside of Europe.

 

[Bostonian]

Apartheid involves Institutionalised forms of racial domination and discrimination. The JNF is just one example of many, which clearly has occured over decades, within Israel. The fact they took it to the OPT via their proxy Himnuta is even more disgraceful, but a topic for another day.

Yosef Weitz, a JNF leader, clearly laid out their intent early days - “There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer all of them… not one village must be left… for this goal funds will be found.”

Let's be honest here, it began even before it was enshrined in to law, Zionist militias cleansed Palestine between 1947-49, illegally evicting hundreds of thousands of civillians and destroying their villages. Once again, the Brits were complicit, helping with training and arms.

Post Nakba, the pace picked up and i suppose you could call it ethnic cleansing rather than apartheid, but i feel the two are intertwined. The JNF snubbed UN Resolution 194, stole tracts of Palestinian land and developed forests and parks in their place. Even going so far as to plant trees of European origin in them. The reasons twofold - to prevent the return of traditional owners, and to create a European style landscape, more familiar to Zionist newcomers.

Similarities to the Native Lands Act in South Africa are disturbing. The fact that people in western nations support it, is even more disturbing. But not totally surprising, as we are an inherently racist, coloniser driven society outside of Europe.

You left out the bit when the Arabs conquered and colonised the area where Palestine now is.

A lazy 1000 or so years before the British arrived in the area.

 

[treeebeard]

You left out the bit when the Arabs conquered and colonised the area where Palestine now is.

A lazy 1000 or so years before the British arrived in the area.

Pre-dates the origin of the word apartheid, and not relevant in the context of this conversation really.

Could go back a bit further to when the Israelites got bored of Egypt and came back to kill the caananites and reclaim "their land"

Interestingly caananite DNA lives on in modern day Palestinians. I presume most modern Israelis have European DNA, like Bibi, the Spaniard.

 

[Jazny]

Apartheid involves Institutionalised forms of racial domination and discrimination. The JNF is just one example of many, which clearly has occured over decades, within Israel. The fact they took it to the OPT via their proxy Himnuta is even more disgraceful, but a topic for another day.

Yosef Weitz, a JNF leader, clearly laid out their intent early days - “There is no way but to transfer the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer all of them… not one village must be left… for this goal funds will be found.”

Your argument for why Israel proper is an apartheid state shouldn't rely in an part on what the director of the Land Department of the non-profit organisation Jewish National Fund wrote in his diary in December of 1940 before Israel even existed.

Someone could quote-farm Ben-Gurion and easily make a counter narrative that from before it's inception Israel planned to have a Jewish state that treated the Arab population equally. I wouldn't do this, as I don't think these kinds of arguments are really relevant or compelling.

Although a lot of what you argue in this post is true if a bit one-sided, we instead probably need to look more at Israel's laws, how its legal system operates in the case of apartheid to systematically oppresses minorities by restricting their access to resources, education, voting rights, movement etc or creating a separate legal system with the intent to maintain that domination over them if we are going to argue it is an apartheid state (which is much easier to argue is the case in the West Bank, but even there it's controversial and not straightforward).

In the case of where racial discriminatory policies exist or existed in the past, does Israel have a legal system capable of overturning those policies? With respect to the JNF's discriminatory land leasing policies, Israel does seem to have a system in place to dismantle that and give minorities equal access to that land.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

They were ZAKA, a disaster recovery and rescue organisation of volunteers who all looked to be in their senior years. Probably overwhelmed.

Think I found why:



Unfortunately we know Zakas testimony was often false.

אנשי זק"א שהתגייסו לטובת ההסברה הישראלית: "אסור שהעולם יטייח"

לאחר שנחשפו לתוצאות המחרידות של מתקפת הטרור ב-7 באוקטובר, אנשי זק"א אזרו כוחות נפש יוצאי דופן כדי לספר לכלי התקשורת בעולם את מה שראו במו עיניהם: "אסור שהעולם יקטין את האסון שקרה פה. כשאני יושב מול כתב, גם אם הוא שונא ישראל, הוא מתחיל לבכות" | הכתבה כוללת עדויות קשות לקריאה

www.ynet.co.il

 

[Bostonian]

Pre-dates the origin of the word apartheid, and not relevant in the context of this conversation really.

Could go back a bit further to when the Israelites got bored of Egypt and came back to kill the caananites and reclaim "their land"

Interestingly caananite DNA lives on in modern day Palestinians. I presume most modern Israelis have European DNA, like Bibi, the Spaniard.

Oh it's all relevant.

It was in those times that poxy backwards religion was being forcefully spread by the colonisers.

Look at the negative impact that has on the region still in 2024. And it's impact world wide.

Your post seemed to parrot the lefts narrow view of world history.

Thus you threw out the racist European trope.

The left waffle on about how bad British colonisers were but never saying anything about how Briton itself was colonised on many occassions.

Slavery was bad but only mention the European aspect of slavery and not the slave trades world wide.

It's like it's an agenda to suppress history and paint certain acts as only pertaining to one group in one part of the planet.