Wayde Skipper or Simon Taylor

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Skipper for mine until Taylor is dominating the VFL for a few weeks in a row at least.
Skip gives 100% and is really mobile around the ground. It's his spot for now, he stays in until his form drops. Has been a great pick up for us and deserves another contract next year.....
 
If it ain't broke ............. u know the rest

Taylor a better tap ruckman.

Skipper just gives the side more options ad better balance IMO

He deserves to keep his spot.

Isn't it lovely just to have this choice tho :thumbsu:
 

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TAITA said:
It was an imposing himself thing - Clarkson came out in this pre season and made a statement apologising to Taylor for making him carry the can for his own want of aggression in '09.

Personally I put 2009 down to the 'part-time' ruck coach we had and the sudden changing of the rules midstream that threw everything we did over preseason out the window.
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TAITA, I think you are putting too much weight on Clarko's comment. Yes he apologised to Taylor for encouraging too much aggression, but Taylor still gave away the free kicks and 50s. Most of them were ruck infringements, high tackles etc caused by Taylors general clumsiness. Clarko's comment was designed to deflect criticism of Taylor coming into a season where he was expected to be our number 1 ruckman (until injury).

On to the argument, I think Taylor has the advantage of being a bigger body and better tap ruckman than Skipper, but there is no way Skipper should be dropped for Taylor. More disciplined, more mobile, a better mark, more accountable... Taylor will dominate in VFL, but that's where he should stay given Renouf and Skipper are in form and a confident pairing.
 
Dragz said:
I know Renouf has done an admirable job this year, but how about Skipper and Taylor in the side and not Renouf? (I'd be primarily thinking against Geelong here)
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Interesting idea, Dragz.
I, too, would be interested in the boar's opinion of this prospect...
 
Taylor is a big body player... but i would hardly call him a good ruckman.

These days... being a ruckman is a lot more then just tap work. Look at Mark Blake... does anyone rate him highly?

Skipper around the ground is much better and he definitely still creates a contest in the middle. He is strong and becoming confident. Stick with the ex dog... he is now a very good HAWK!
 
I really think it might be getting closer to Taylor and Skipper.

I really believe you shouldn't have Taylor and Renouf in the same team, both are terrible in traffic.

We need to get some AFL time into Taylor to see if we are gunna use him come finals.

Could be a reverse of 2008 when Taylor was pushed out of the finals campaign.
 
To suggest that Renouf be dropped for Taylor, is, in my opinion a joke. Renouf gives a 100% every week and shouldered the ruck position all year. Skip has been great and deserves his spot in the team.

Taylor has the skill level of a 5 year old aus kicker. As one of the other posters suggested, if it aint broke, ...................... !!!
 
Taskmaster said:
To suggest that Renouf be dropped for Taylor, is, in my opinion a joke. Renouf gives a 100% every week and shouldered the ruck position all year. Skip has been great and deserves his spot in the team.

Taylor has the skill level of a 5 year old aus kicker. As one of the other posters suggested, if it aint broke, ...................... !!!
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It wasn't broke in 2008 either.

Whether or not he keeps the number 1 ruck spot, Renouf will need a rest at some stage before the finals. If Taylor stands up and shows significant improvement in the ruck duels without significant decline in around the ground work I'd say the spot will become his with Skipper keeping the 2nd spot.

Might be tough on Renouf, but it's all just swings and roundabouts.
 
I am just greatly relieved that we now have 3 fit ruckmen. We spent a lot of the season with just Renouf (one game with no ruckman), finally getting up to 2 with Skipper, and barring injury in a couple of weeks we will have the luxury of 3 fit ruckmen (Taylor getting match fit at Box Hill). Let us hope the competition bring out the best in all of them and we can keep them injury free for the rest of the year.
 

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Let's not get too excited about Skipper's game on the weekend . . . it was against 22 witches hats, and he hasn't really shown anything like that kind of form in any of the other games.

I'm grateful for his effort and he's been very useful in giving Renouf a spell, but Taylor would have to come in for him when he regains fitness.
 
Hodgepodge said:
Let's not get too excited about Skipper's game on the weekend . . . it was against 22 witches hats, and he hasn't really shown anything like that kind of form in any of the other games.

I'm grateful for his effort and he's been very useful in giving Renouf a spell, but Taylor would have to come in for him when he regains fitness.
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Taylor has played against witches hats before and yet never played like that, so....
 
I'm thinking Renouf is definitely our number 1 ruckman now however he's going to need a break before we play finals. Perhaps he can have a rest against Sydney (it's at the SCG so Taylor will be suited to that size of ground) and against Port Adelaide (in SA) too.

The last thing we want is one of them burning out before the finals. So let Taylor and Skipper handle a game (hell, maybe give Lowden a game too) where they can fight it out on who's our number 2.
 
Neville Bartos said:
I'm thinking Renouf is definitely our number 1 ruckman now however he's going to need a break before we play finals. Perhaps he can have a rest against Sydney (it's at the SCG so Taylor will be suited to that size of ground) and against Port Adelaide (in SA) too.

The last thing we want is one of them burning out before the finals. So let Taylor and Skipper handle a game (hell, maybe give Lowden a game too) where they can fight it out on who's our number 2.
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The only way Renouf will get a break is if he actually breaks something.
 
alexhawk said:
TAITA, I think you are putting too much weight on Clarko's comment. Yes he apologised to Taylor for encouraging too much aggression, but Taylor still gave away the free kicks and 50s. Most of them were ruck infringements, high tackles etc caused by Taylors general clumsiness. Clarko's comment was designed to deflect criticism of Taylor coming into a season where he was expected to be our number 1 ruckman (until injury).

On to the argument, I think Taylor has the advantage of being a bigger body and better tap ruckman than Skipper, but there is no way Skipper should be dropped for Taylor. More disciplined, more mobile, a better mark, more accountable... Taylor will dominate in VFL, but that's where he should stay given Renouf and Skipper are in form and a confident pairing.
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Special mention to our Ruck coach in 2009, or lack thereof.

Look at what Monhurst has done with Renouf. Taylor is bound to benefit also.
 
Taylor played okay on the weekend for Box Hill. Won a few hitouts but didn't do much around the ground. Skipper on the other hand won 16 hitouts and offered a lot more around the ground. What do you do as a coach? Stick with Skipper who has shown some good form, offers a lot more around the ground but can't normally give his midfielders first use of the ball or Taylor is a great tap ruckman but offers very little around the ground. I've read this discussion over the past 3 weeks and i'm still stumped :confused:
 
It's generally understood that Taylor's 09 was pretty lousy right?
And Skipper has been a revelation this year?

Comparing Taylor's 09 (bad) to Skipper's 10 (good):

Taylor gets 1 less possesison a game. 2 more clearances. Makes 4 less errors. Gives away 2 more free kicks. Gives our midfield first use on 4 more occassions. Wins the hitout on 10 more occassions. Concedes direct ruck taps 4 times less.

In "net" terms (their effect on the team as a whole), Taylor is in front by 2-3 goals a game. FTR, that's enough to have us 12-4 and at/on top of the ladder.

Taylor's 09, as bad as it was, is still better than anything Skipper has produced (up to the Lions game which is a MASSIVE outlier for him). It was also under the issue of no/very little ruck coaching, and the infamous umpires coaching video.

Of course Skipper won't be dropped after a performance like that, but does anyone expect Le Cras to kick 12 next week? Neither do we expect Skipper to rack up 140+ SC points.

Taylor is a better tap. Better clearance player. Statistically a better disposer (I'd argue this one). Better contested mark.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the decision is one of the closest ones we will have to make - but some people need to take the blinkers off when considering Taylor's performances.
 
Simon_Nesbit said:
It's generally understood that Taylor's 09 was pretty lousy right?
And Skipper has been a revelation this year?

Comparing Taylor's 09 (bad) to Skipper's 10 (good):

Taylor gets 1 less possesison a game. 2 more clearances. Makes 4 less errors. Gives away 2 more free kicks. Gives our midfield first use on 4 more occassions. Wins the hitout on 10 more occassions. Concedes direct ruck taps 4 times less.

In "net" terms (their effect on the team as a whole), Taylor is in front by 2-3 goals a game. FTR, that's enough to have us 12-4 and at/on top of the ladder.

Taylor's 09, as bad as it was, is still better than anything Skipper has produced (up to the Lions game which is a MASSIVE outlier for him). It was also under the issue of no/very little ruck coaching, and the infamous umpires coaching video.

Of course Skipper won't be dropped after a performance like that, but does anyone expect Le Cras to kick 12 next week? Neither do we expect Skipper to rack up 140+ SC points.

Taylor is a better tap. Better clearance player. Statistically a better disposer (I'd argue this one). Better contested mark.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the decision is one of the closest ones we will have to make - but some people need to take the blinkers off when considering Taylor's performances.
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This is the most compelling argument i've seen on taylor so far (except i'm not sure how you worked out he's 2-3 goals a game better for the team). I think it would be fair to say that Skipper will gain a lot of confidence from the weekend, and knowing he has taylor hot on his heels he'll be motivated to produce more.

I think it's also fair to say that if we had hodge, rioli, mitchell and burgoyne in the same form last year as this year then taylor's 2009 would have looked a lot better. Lets be honest these 4 midfielders have made our ruckmen look better.

I still don't think skipper should be replaced until taylor dominates at box hill and shows he's really ready to produce better than what skipper currently is. But perhaps that wont be far away.
 
(2-3 goals for Taylor).

Basically a clearance is about 50% likely to result in a score. Accuracy is about 50%. So each clearance is worth 25% of a goal.

so:

2 more clearances. (0.5 goals)
Makes 4 less errors. (1 goal)
Gives away 2 more free kicks. (-0.5)
Gives our midfield first use on 4 more occassions. (1 goal)
Wins the hitout on 10 more occassions. (neglible)
Concedes direct ruck taps 4 times less. (1 goal)

3 goals is a little high - Skipper tends to cover the ground better, and is also clearly 2nd fiddle to Renouf at this stage, hence has had less time than Taylor (who has always been the outright #1 or equal #1 ruck)
 
Last year Taylor was getting at least 50% game time and often quite abit higher (as he should as number 1 ruckman at the time). I havent been to any games this year but from what ive managed to catch on the TV, Skipper seems to play no more than 40 odd % of the time (although happy to be corrected).

It would be interesting to see what happens to those goal differentials if you say take Taylor from 55% game time to 40% game time (i.e. multiply all the numbers by 8 on 11).
 
Hawkers Hero said:
Last year Taylor was getting at least 50% game time and often quite abit higher (as he should as number 1 ruckman at the time). I havent been to any games this year but from what ive managed to catch on the TV, Skipper seems to play no more than 40 odd % of the time (although happy to be corrected).

It would be interesting to see what happens to those goal differentials if you say take Taylor from 55% game time to 40% game time (i.e. multiply all the numbers by 8 on 11).
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Skipper totally 59% TOG this season, Renouf 70% - that is, there clearly is overlap as one rests down back or deep forward.
 

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Wayde Skipper or Simon Taylor

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