We SHOULD be better! Here are the facts

[bourbons]

The last 4 weeks of this season will not be kind to the Blues.
I wouldn't be surprised if we don't win another game this year.

This, unfortunately. We may get over Richmond, Essendon will beat us by 4 goals +

We are absolutely shot for this year, it was so apparent on saturday. There's just 0 confidence in themselves and each other, its almost palpable when you watch them live.

When we actually turn up (about once every 5 or 6 weeks) we are competitive with anyone. When we don't, it gets very very ugly - there's no middle ground, if we aren't playing well the resistance drops away to nothing, absolute flatline.

Don't know what the solution is

 

[Stamos]

Kreuzer kicked 3 against Port Adelaide and basically won Carlton the game.

Here are the real facts:

Carlton's two key defenders in Bower and Jamison have played 52 games each. In fact, unless Waite plays in the backline, Andrew Walker (101 games) is the most experienced player in defense, and he was moved forward in the second half.

Our ruckman Hampson (32), Warnock (28) are very inexperienced. In fact, the ruckman we drafted last, Kreuzer (56), is the most experienced.

Our forward line has Henderson (29), Garlett (25), Yarran (21). All are expected to produce like 100+ game veterans. Waite (126) and Houlihan (195) are the most experienced, but have both missed big chunks of football. Fisher (99) played his 4th AFL game in two years yesterday and Eddie Betts (115) has only found real form in the last two years.

We have experience in Houlihan (195), Scotland (194), Judd (193), Simpson (128), Waite (126), and Carrazzo (117), but Scotland, Houlihan and Carrazzo are role players, not stars. The experience is in the wrong areas.

Carlton are realistically another two years away from being a viable premiership chance, and still need to add another KPF into the mix.

This is spot on.

 

[blue healer]

Some great posts here, and I agree especially with the recent posts.

I think the best example of what a coach can do is the Fremantle example. They could have easily finished down the bottom and all the experts would have said - well thats about where they are at. They have really turned the corner and are playing with spirit, belief and a structure that the players fit into.

Imagine if Carlton achieved what Fremantle has this year - we would be sitting top 2!

The best coaches are able to over achieve.

The worst coaches underachieve.

How safe was Harvey's spot at the start of the season?

 

[KoutoufidesGhost]

You make some good points but the major problem here is that supporters expect competitive at this point - not a premiership chance. We certainly have a list that, coached well, should be competitive.

I hate watching Carlton lose like everybody else, but what is a true indication of our season? The first 11 games, or the last 7? Because we were more than competitive at 7-4, and dismal for 2-5. Ratten's finally put the acid on the players (should've done it after the Bulldogs game), but sometimes we've just got to accept that Collingwood are a team in red hot form, that were just way too good.

I'll admit, I'm not sure I can take another loss to Essendon. Even a spirited performance won't be enough for me. The last 4 times we've played them, Carlton have been the better team, and twice they've made us look stupid.

 

[Tish]

People who said we didn't go into the collingwood game with a clear game plan obviously didn't watch the match.

Did you not notice how we tried to limit the way collingwood moved the ball, by playing numbers around the ball for the first 1/4. It was half working apart from the fact no one from the side wanted to put there head over the ball, do the hard stuff and tackle.

So we reverted back to a running style game plan. If I did a quiz of Carlton players "who is your opponent?" They wouldn't have been able to tell me.

It's not up to the coach to man up, to run hard in defense. Tackle hard, run hard on a lead. It's up to the guys on the field. They've got extremely lazy and soft since the mid year break.

 

[The Exorcist]

People who said we didn't go into the collingwood game with a clear game plan obviously didn't watch the match.

Did you not notice how we tried to limit the way collingwood moved the ball, by playing numbers around the ball for the first 1/4. It was half working apart from the fact no one from the side wanted to put there head over the ball, do the hard stuff and tackle.

So we reverted back to a running style game plan. If I did a quiz of Carlton players "who is your opponent?" They wouldn't have been able to tell me.

It's not up to the coach to man up, to run hard in defense. Tackle hard, run hard on a lead. It's up to the guys on the field. They've got extremely lazy and soft since the mid year break.

Reading these threads the term "game plan" is usually banded about by those who just want the coach sacked but aren't really sure why (not referring to you, Tish).

It's basically "Ratten should be sacked because the game plan doesn't work."

I'm yet to see someone give an in depth analysis of the game plan and explain why it hasn't worked over the last 7 or so weeks. Someone may do it and may be correct, but no one has done it. All we read is "isn't it obvious we have no game plan?" "Ratts should be sacked because someone said on radio we had no game plan," "the players don't understand the game plan."

What I saw on Saturday was a bundle of players not going for the hard ball.

Yet for some, the players going in soft is because Ratten's "game plan" doesn't work. There's NO excuse for players earning $250,000 a year not tackling or not running or not placing their bodies on the line. This has nothing to do with game plan.

On SEN, heard a Carlton supporter ring up and say he hoped Carlton would loss so Ratten could get the sack. That sort of attitude gives us a bad name. Makes us look like a bunch of downward skiers who can't handle a little stone landing in still water and making a ripple.

Someone else rang up shortly after and said "A few years back Carlton supporters wanted to loss so they could get Kreuzer, now they want to loss so the coach can get sacked."

With that mentality, we'll never win another premiership.

 

[Big Red is back]

Reading these threads the term "game plan" is usually banded about by those who just want the coach sacked but aren't really sure why (not referring to you, Tish).

It's basically "Ratten should be sacked because the game plan doesn't work."

I'm yet to see someone give an in depth analysis of the game plan and explain why it hasn't worked over the last 7 or so weeks. Someone may do it and may be correct, but no one has done it. All we read is "isn't it obvious we have no game plan?"

To behonest I have read many many people offer insights into why we have no game plan.


The easiest way to assess this is explain to us what the gameplan is... i bet you can't?

You know why?

Because it changes every 5 seconds.

===============

Some examples of gameplans.

Saints for example

1. Back six always stay at home
2. Midfield flood to clog and slow opposition ball movement
3. Isolate Milne, Nick and Kosi (he stinks)
4. Pressure through the middle is the key to there success when playing well
5. Maintain back six force teams to get frustrated and over commit forward and grab them on the rebound with an open fwd line.
6. Create lots of numbers around stoppage and spread with speed for example why they flicked Luke Ball.

I can do something similar for each of the top 5 sides plus Hawthorn and the Swans, Demons, and Tigers.

 

[Alice]

People who said we didn't go into the collingwood game with a clear game plan obviously didn't watch the match.

Did you not notice how we tried to limit the way collingwood moved the ball, by playing numbers around the ball for the first 1/4. It was half working apart from the fact no one from the side wanted to put there head over the ball, do the hard stuff and tackle.

So we reverted back to a running style game plan. If I did a quiz of Carlton players "who is your opponent?" They wouldn't have been able to tell me.

It's not up to the coach to man up, to run hard in defense. Tackle hard, run hard on a lead. It's up to the guys on the field. They've got extremely lazy and soft since the mid year break.

But it's up to the coach to ensure the opposition doesn't have a loose man in defence who continually thwarts all forward thrusts and sets up goals at the other end!

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

It's basically "Ratten should be sacked because the game plan doesn't work."

I'm yet to see someone give an in depth analysis of the game plan.

Totally agree.

For Matthews, probably the most decorated figure in the sport, to tell us that "game plans" don't really exist says enough in itself.

For **** sake, it's merely the weapon of choice for morons who think they know better, but simply can't hack sticking with the club through thick and thin.

It's the same spineless pricks who came in here at the start of the year and said we'd never make finals after an offseason from hell.

The worst thing is, they'll still be happy if we miss out on the 8 because it means they're right.

 

[The Exorcist]

Reading these threads the term "game plan" is usually banded about by those who just want the coach sacked but aren't really sure why (not referring to you, Tish).

It's basically "Ratten should be sacked because the game plan doesn't work."

I'm yet to see someone give an in depth analysis of the game plan and explain why it hasn't worked over the last 7 or so weeks. Someone may do it and may be correct, but no one has done it. All we read is "isn't it obvious we have no game plan?"

To behonest I have read many many people offer insights into why we have no game plan.


The easiest way to assess this is explain to us what the gameplan is... i bet you can't?

You know why?

Because it changes every 5 seconds.

===============

Some examples of gameplans.

Saints for example

1. Back six always stay at home
2. Midfield flood to clog and slow opposition ball movement
3. Isolate Milne, Nick and Kosi (he stinks)
4. Pressure through the middle is the key to there success when playing well
5. Maintain back six force teams to get frustrated and over commit forward and grab them on the rebound with an open fwd line.
6. Create lots of numbers around stoppage and spread with speed for example why they flicked Luke Ball.

I can do something similar for each of the top 5 sides plus Hawthorn and the Swans, Demons, and Tigers.

So in the argument to the Carlton Board that Ratten should be sacked because of the gameplan, the example given is a gameplan that resulted in Carlton thrashing last year's Grand Finalists?


What I'm getting at BRIB, is a "mock" business case argument presented to the Carlton Board that Ratt's should be sacked.


I'll say that it certainly appears the game plan changes all the time, whether it be throwing Waite & Hendo back and forth all the time, trying Hammer in stints up forward, or bombing the ball in long or then suddenly looking for leading forwards, or trying to kick over the forward's heads for the indigenous kids to run unto it.


But to sack Ratts it has to be proven that other factors aren't at play, ie. commitment of the players, input or lack thereof from assistant coaches, lack of leadership across the group, the ability of the list compared to the rest of the competition etc.

 

[Tish]

But it's up to the coach to ensure the opposition doesn't have a loose man in defence who continually thwarts all forward thrusts and sets up goals at the other end!

If they have a loose man, so do we.... our skills by hand and foot are so bad right now, that we could have ten extra men on the ground and turn it over.


It's also up to the players not to be stupid. Bombing long into a clogged forward line is so dumb......

 

[agro]

In other words if its so simple why cant we do it.

 

[Bluebird28]

Personally, I think there is something going on between the players and the coach. They just don't seem to care out there. I sometimes wonder about Ratten's decisions to take players who, overall, are pretty awesome out of the game just because they had one ordinary game. Many times I have watched games, and thought to myself, where is so and so? He's such a great player!

I wonder if some of the players are getting peeved because they feel like they aren't given a go by the coach? I understand the hard-mentality of the coach to put pressure on the players to perform, but sometimes I wonder if it might be better to take a "I believe in you" approach...this may be more uplifting for a player who has played crap in one game than to be punished and taken out the next. After a player is ordinary for 2 or 3 games, that is a different story. Sometimes I think he's pulling guys out and changing the dynamic too much that not only is the player that is pulled out pissed off, but other players that are used to having him there are pissed off too. Go ahead and call me ignorant on this one, I'm no expert. I'm just so confused as to why we have suddenly fallen apart...and the only thing I can put it to is the team not being "a team". Like the boys might feel like they are competing with each other let alone other teams?

 

[Bluebird28]

This, unfortunately. We may get over Richmond, Essendon will beat us by 4 goals +

I wouldn't discredit Richmond. I think that may be our toughest game yet. Think about how much we have slaughted them in the recent past...they are going to be out for revenge. It's not like they are playing like wooden spooners anymore either.

 

[Bluebird28]

It's also up to the players not to be stupid. Bombing long into a clogged forward line is so dumb......

Seriously correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am), but I remember a few years back, the blues critics saying we never took risks and bombed it long. I remember being frustrated by this, as it seemed we always found ourselves barely kicking marks to guys just outside the boundary rather than going through the middle and taking kicks to the contest.

 

[tubes82]

It's both the players and coaches fault. The difference is your not going to sack Murphy, Gibbs, Bower, Jamison, Russell etc because there out of form. It's the coach that get's sacked.

I still think we should give Ratten a go next year and see how he goes the first half of the year. If we are dishing up the same crap as the last 7 weeks for the first half of next year we will have to start looking at getting ride of Ratten.

 

[Bluebear]

Players: last years list is one year older and should have natural level of improvement. The following is my assessment of the list-

Gone backwards- Gibbs, Judd, Murphy, bower, Thornton, Joseph, Waite,Carrazzo, jamison, grigg, Johnson, fisher, Hadley,Robinson,

2 points:
If you wrote this 4 weeks ago how many would you have in this group? So in another 4 weeks possibly things could change again and we may well look on it as a bad patch. So just a cautionary note on "annual reviews" prior to the season actually being complete.

Secondly, Johnson, far from going backwards, has improved his game this year. Apart from his performance on Saturday, he has generally performed better than he did last year (which wouldn't have been hard).
Carrots, Robbo, and Murph (again other than the last couple of weeks) would be more the "fail to improve" category than gone backwards IMO.

We cannot sit and do nothing, a business would go broke with that attitude and this football club will totally destroy itself.

Have you sent these concerns to the club?
It's all well and good to sound off on BF, but maybe the club needs to be made aware they need to take action.

 

[Tish]

To me, saying the coach and players are having issues. Is the biggest copout I've ever heard.

Play for the the jumper, and play for the people who pay memberships. Without them, you wouldn't even be getting paid.

I have never stepped out on a field without the intention of playing 100%. Our blokes have been getting away with being mediocre for a long time. It's just not good enough, the coach can't give you a heart.

 

[The House]

Not trying to troll here but i do find the Carlton situation an interesting one, and am keen to hear some Carlton thoughts on how i see it....

Personally I don't think it's as simple as saying Carlton's current form is all the coach, although when any team plays with a lack of spirit the coach must take a fair portion of the responsibility.

The main flaw i see is that Carlton's list is often over rated by the club, it's supporters and in particular in the media.
It needs serious work, yet many including Ratten just 2 weeks ago continue to point to the fact that they sit in the 8, as if to suggest the external criticism of the list is going too far.

All sledging aside, the backline is simply not as good as Carlton would have you believe, and the forward line literally relies on the consistant form of 3 quick, flighty players, that essentially provide flashes of occasional brilliance rather than provide consistant headaches for the opposition (probably a bit harsh on Bett's but he clearly needs support).

And the reason i see for this over rating of the list is Cartlon's ladder position both this year and last. Essentially Carlton's strength is clearly their midfield. However, the main criticism of the midfield group is that they are down hill skiiers (i.e. don't run back hard enough defensively).

It is for this reason that Carlton love smacking around the teams lower on the ladder, yet often struggle against the better teams, especially at the business end of the season. So whilst Carlton are beating up on these teams, often by a considerable margin and sitting in the 8, their ladder position does not reflect where they really sit in the overall sceme of things. Up until recently the list has imo avoided some much needed criticism because of this.

Again, i'm not here trolling....i'm the first to admit my side has had issues of it's own. In fact whilst Essendon probably perform sightly better against quality opposition, unfortunately it's our inability to get ourselves up against these lower sides that has done considerable damage to our ladder position this year and last.

I would think until the Carlton mids get better defensively, and the blues get more games into some quality kp's, they will continue to struggle to bridge the gap to the top 4.
In other words, i feel there are serious flaws that will clearly take time to fix.

In the meantime I would consider doing a north melbourne and playing 3 ruckmen, with at least one playing deep at all times. Also Henderson playing forward every week, and Waite in defence....and leave them and let them learne to own the position.

And surely with 4 ruckmen on the list, all being capable senior ruckmen, a trade for a pick or a kp to a side like Hawthorn would be a given.

Will be interesting to see how it pans out over the next few years.

 

[parrot]

Not trying to troll here but i do find the Carlton situation an interesting one, and am keen to hear some Carlton thoughts on how i see it.......

You are, and you're irrelevant. Focus on Knights and your own problems.

 

[parrot]

Fact is we are MASSIVELY underperforming for whatever reason. The difference between our best and worst is just ridiculous. We've thrashed the Cats and Saints in spectacular fashion, and then lose against rubbish like Essendon and North. There's been 1023 theories as to WHY. All I know is they ain't playing with passion and intensity like they did earlier in the year. We show brief patches of flashy brilliance, and large patches of disinterest. It's a team psychology thing. This period might end up being a massive turning point. The quality team in the comp i.e Geelong, know how to get through and work their way out of form slumps. I just see it as part of the learning process. Just hope the turnaround happens soon! In the meantime, we're just gotta hang in there.

 

[The House]

You are, and you're irrelevant. Focus on Knights and your own problems.

Well you're obvioulsy a really nice person, but not much use when you offer me a response with zero relevant content.

Anyone actually have any thoughts on my theory?

I actually think you'd be well served with a ruckman playing as a permanent forward, ala north.....

 

[mediumsizered]

Not trying to troll here but i do find the Carlton situation an interesting one, and am keen to hear some Carlton thoughts on how i see it....

Beware of poster who says he is "not trying to troll." This means he is trying to troll.

You are on notice.

 

[Mayesy_23]

Not trying to troll here but i do find the Carlton situation an interesting one, and am keen to hear some Carlton thoughts on how i see it....

Personally I don't think it's as simple as saying Carlton's current form is all the coach, although when any team plays with a lack of spirit the coach must take a fair portion of the responsibility.

The main flaw i see is that Carlton's list is often over rated by the club, it's supporters and in particular in the media.
It needs serious work, yet many including Ratten just 2 weeks ago continue to point to the fact that they sit in the 8, as if to suggest the external criticism of the list is going too far.

All sledging aside, the backline is simply not as good as Carlton would have you believe, and the forward line literally relies on the consistant form of 3 quick, flighty players, that essentially provide flashes of occasional brilliance rather than provide consistant headaches for the opposition (probably a bit harsh on Bett's but he clearly needs support).

And the reason i see for this over rating of the list is Cartlon's ladder position both this year and last. Essentially Carlton's strength is clearly their midfield. However, the main criticism of the midfield group is that they are down hill skiiers (i.e. don't run back hard enough defensively).

It is for this reason that Carlton love smacking around the teams lower on the ladder, yet often struggle against the better teams, especially at the business end of the season. So whilst Carlton are beating up on these teams, often by a considerable margin and sitting in the 8, their ladder position does not reflect where they really sit in the overall sceme of things. Up until recently the list has imo avoided some much needed criticism because of this.

Again, i'm not here trolling....i'm the first to admit my side has had issues of it's own. In fact whilst Essendon probably perform sightly better against quality opposition, unfortunately it's our inability to get ourselves up against these lower sides that has done considerable damage to our ladder position this year and last.

I would think until the Carlton mids get better defensively, and the blues get more games into some quality kp's, they will continue to struggle to bridge the gap to the top 4.
In other words, i feel there are serious flaws that will clearly take time to fix.

In the meantime I would consider doing a north melbourne and playing 3 ruckmen, with at least one playing deep at all times. Also Henderson playing forward every week, and Waite in defence....and leave them and let them learne to own the position.

And surely with 4 ruckmen on the list, all being capable senior ruckmen, a trade for a pick or a kp to a side like Hawthorn would be a given.

Will be interesting to see how it pans out over the next few years.

Kinda like thinking you're a finals side after 10 and a half wins.

 

[The House]

1. One minute i'm reading Old Dark Navies on the Ess v Car banter board claiming that the lack of banter from Carlton fans is because the a certain element go to bay 13, but the ones left on the Carlton board are usually more up for an intelligent footy discussion.

2. I post on a topic that interests me, in no way sledge or hang shit.....and get responses akin to bay 13.

Don't worry, i won't be back.