Weight Training: For Beginners - Critique my program/Q & A

[Fire Storm]

Re: Weight Training Program

Curling and benching aint gunna improve your power clean. But doing power cleaning will!

Squat
Bench
Power Clean

Do those 3 times per week 'till you can do them well then start the above mentioned program.

Scratching your head wont help your itchy arse.

 

[Oberfuhrer Abetz]

Re: Weight Training Program

Think about it from a neural level. The nervous system is either going to send Action Potentials telling the hamstrings to fire, or they wont. If the nervous system tells the hammys to fire then they will cause the hip to extend and the knee to flex. The movements any single muscle fibre can do is contract concentrically (resulting in the shorterning of the muscle), isometrically contract, or eccentrically contract (the muscle fibre is trying to shortern however, as I described above, the force opposing these muscle fibres is greater than the force supplied by the muscle. This results in lengthening of the muscle). In any contraction you can't have some muscle fibres in a muscle shorterning and some lengthening. The nervous system knows this and hence preferentially recruits the glutes and adductors to help extend, adduct and medially rotate at the hip joint in a squat.

The below link although from a Wikipedia link explains the concept better than I can.

http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/lombard.htm

 

[Oberfuhrer Abetz]

Re: Weight Training Program

In the eccentric phase of a contraction, contraction velocity will not affect the amount of force produced by the muscle (barring very slow speeds). In the concentric phase of a contraction, in general, the slower the movement velocity the greater force producing capabilities the muscle has.

F= m x A, what you suggest is only true if the load is causing the slow velocity i.e. a lifter is attempting to lift a weight as fast as possible but due to it being near his max the bar velocity is reduced.
Lifting a sub maximal weight at a slow velocity is not producing maximum force it is only fatiguing one set of motor units, previously unused motor units are then recruited to maintain the bar velocity.
To recruit all motor units at one point in time either maximal velocity or mass is required.

 

[swiftdog]

Re: Weight Training Program

The below link although from a Wikipedia link explains the concept better than I can.

http://moon.ouhsc.edu/dthompso/namics/lombard.htm

Should have mentioned that I'm studying Sport and Exercise Science at uni. My Kinesiology lecturer explained it much better. One thing with exercise science is that a lot of subjects are contreversial and many issues don't have any solid answers, this one does however. The palpation that is referred in that link is actually a palpation of Adductor Magnus, not one of the 3 hamstring muscles. The references in that article are also all well over 20 years old, more recent research has shown Lombard's paradox not to exist (although I'm not sure if this has been 100% proven... he did mention that recent studies suggest that it doesn't exist. But again, it's hard to prove anything 100%). I have MRI from some lecture notes regarding squats and muscle activation but not sure if I can post them here. Bottom line is though, don't try to train the hamstrings with squats.

 

[`kURupT]

Re: Weight Training Program

Thanks guys for all the input but i think i may go with Oberfuhrer abetz's idea and do the Rippetoe program. I have done a fair bit of research into it so far and it sounds like something that I will be able to follow and something to benefit me. I will let you know how I go with it.

 

[Cats fan 16]

Re: Weight Training Program

Should have mentioned that I'm studying Sport and Exercise Science at uni. My Kinesiology lecturer explained it much better. One thing with exercise science is that a lot of subjects are contreversial and many issues don't have any solid answers, this one does however. The palpation that is referred in that link is actually a palpation of Adductor Magnus, not one of the 3 hamstring muscles. The references in that article are also all well over 20 years old, more recent research has shown Lombard's paradox not to exist (although I'm not sure if this has been 100% proven... he did mention that recent studies suggest that it doesn't exist. But again, it's hard to prove anything 100%). I have MRI from some lecture notes regarding squats and muscle activation but not sure if I can post them here. Bottom line is though, don't try to train the hamstrings with squats.

All this physics and biomechanics stuff is over my head, i haven't done that since 2nd year. I agree the quads are working eccentrically when going down for a squat, but this is at the knee. At the hip the glutes and hammy's should be working eccentrically.

Just found an article: 'Electromyographic activity of the hamstrings during performance of the leg curl, stiff-leg deadlift, and back squat movements'

Conclusion was: CON-LC and CON-SLDL elicited the greatest integrated EMG activity, with no significant difference between exercises. The CON-squat showed approximately half as much integrated EMG activity as CON-LC and CON-SLDL

This is only one study though.

 

[Oberfuhrer Abetz]

Re: Weight Training Program

Should have mentioned that I'm studying Sport and Exercise Science at uni. My Kinesiology lecturer explained it much better. One thing with exercise science is that a lot of subjects are contreversial and many issues don't have any solid answers, this one does however. The palpation that is referred in that link is actually a palpation of Adductor Magnus, not one of the 3 hamstring muscles. The references in that article are also all well over 20 years old, more recent research has shown Lombard's paradox not to exist (although I'm not sure if this has been 100% proven... he did mention that recent studies suggest that it doesn't exist. But again, it's hard to prove anything 100%). I have MRI from some lecture notes regarding squats and muscle activation but not sure if I can post them here. Bottom line is though, don't try to train the hamstrings with squats.

Any links to the studies you mention? Did a half ass search on Pubmed and couldn't find anything

 

[Dazb86]

Re: Weight Training Program

Ok I've been going to the gym for about a month now and this is what I've been doing. Tell me if I'm doing it wrong or wasting my time.

Mon- Chest 4 exercises with 3 sets 8-10 reps, Biceps 2 exercises 3 sets 8-10 reps
Tues- Back 3 exercises 3 sets 8-10 reps, Triceps 3 exercises 3 sets 8-10 reps
Wed-Shoulders 4 exercises 3 sets 8-10 reps
Thurs- Biceps 3 exercises 3 sets 8-10 reps, Triceps 3 exercises 8-10 reps
Fri- Legs and Abs

Is that too much?

 

[AG]

Re: Weight Training Program

Too much emphasis on arms imo but if it works, it works. Workouts should focus on the main chest, back and leg exercises.
It all comes down to getting enough fuel in your body. The workout isn't too important, as long as you don't overtrain, but if you're eating enough then you should see some sort of improvement.

 

[carn_freo]

Re: Weight Training Program

im no expert, but i think a good idea may be to throw your fridays routine of abs and legs into day three and shuffle the other two down in the weeks plan, just to give your arms a bit of a rest for a day. 4 days of arms in a row is pretty full-on.

has anyone got an opinion on different variations of squats??

 

[Fire Storm]

Re: Weight Training Program

If it's for football, yeah, your wasting your time.

 

[joxstrap]

Re: Weight Training Program

Thought I'd throw my hat in the ring:

Most important things, in order, for gaining strength and size

1) Diet - Eat a diet high in Protein/Carbs and moderate good fats
2) Regular hard weights program
3) Sufficient rest, sleep and water.

My program which is a good one for beginners in my opinion is very basic, and is centered around compound movements.

Monday, Wednesday, Friday with 4 days, so that you rotate which parts are performed twice in a week as follows:

Monday - Day 1

Squats - 3 x 5, 1 x 10
Stiff Legged Deads - 3 x 8-10
Pullups - 3-4 x up to 10, then add weight
Barbell rows - 4 x 6
Curls - 2 x 10 (optional, but people enjoy this, and enjoyment makes you keep going)

Wednesday - Day 2

Dumbbell Incline Bench - 2 x 5, 2 x 8
Dips 2 x 8
Dumbbell Overhead Press - 3 x 8
Side laterals 2 x 10
Skulls - 2 x 10

Friday - day 3

Deadlifts - 3 x 5
Leg Press - 2 x 10
Chins - as above
DB Rows - 3 x 8
Curls 2 x 10

Monday - Day 4

Benc Press - 2 x 5, 2 x 8
Dips - 2 x 8
Military Press - 3 x 8
Side Laterals - 2 x 10
Skulls/tricep movement 2 x 10

Wednesday would be Day 1 again, repeat.

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Weight Training Program

Okay, need advice on this.
I'm a pretty skinny guy, I'm almost 19 years old, around the 183cm mark and weight about 67 kgs.

I've been gyming it seriously for about a year now.
I've been taking it hell serious in order to gain weight, protein, creatine, dieting.
(completely threw eating chocolate and sweets etc. out and now I don't even like them)
I think this might just be a mental thing that has me, I know I'm muscular because I've gained around 14 kgs since last year and I've grown 2 cms. But I think that due to naturally undeveloped body I seem to have problems gaining muscle quicker because I pretty much have -1% body fat.

Kinda hate the lack of fat kinda, like theres skinny but I kinda look like I have an eating disorder with muscle on me.

I'm even going to get a checkup to see if I'm lactose intolerent or have a thyroid problem.

I need reassurance and advice because I've always been told that once I stop growing and my metabolism slows a bit I'll fill out.

Anyone got any tips or advice or anything just to reassure me or whatever, it's very frustrating because I work my arse off heaps and I've been at the gym almost 2 years now

Heres a rough plan of my workout, its not exact though.

Day 1: Chest and Back

-Dumbell Press 3 x 8-10
-Dumbell Flys 3 x 8-10
-Incline Barbell Press 3 x 8-10
-Dumbell Pullovers 3 x 8-10
-Incline Flys 3 x 8-10

-Rows(close grip) 3 x 8-10
-Wide grip Lat pulldowns 3 x 8-10
-Close grip LAt pulldowns 3 x 8-10
- Chin ups (as many as possible)

Day 2. Rest

Day 3. Legs

Seated quad curls 3 x 8-10
Lying leg curls (hamstring) 3 x 8-10
Sitting leg curls (hams.) 3 x 8-10
Hack Squats 3 x 8 -12
Leg Press 3 x 8 - 12
Calf raise 4 x 8 - 15

Day 4. Delts + Abs

-Barbell Military Press(smith) 3 x 8-10
-Upright Barbell Row 3 x 8-10
-seated Dumbell delt press 3 x 8-10
- Hammer Strength press 3 x 8-10
- Dumbell lateral raises 3 x 8-10
-Dumbell Shrugs 3 x 8-10
-Front dumbell raise 3 x 8-10
-Some funny motion where you hold a weight in one hand and slide down one leg then use your waist muscles to slide your weighless hand down the other leg
-Crunch machine
-Situps

Day 5. Biceps, Triceps, Forearms

-Barbell curls 3 x 8-12
-Alternating dumbell curls 3 x 8-10
-Preacher straight bar curls 3 x 8-12
-Skull crushers 3 x 8-10
- Rope pulldown 3 x 8-10
-Bar pulldown 3 x 8-10
-Forearms Precher curl(sitting) 3 x 8-10
-Standing reverse preacher curl 3 x 8-10

Rst for the rest of the days.

Sorry If I got any of the exercises names wrong, I just do them and don't really bother to check the names or whatever

 

[Coolangatta]

Re: Weight Training Program

Whoa whoa that's way too much. You are over training. Gees. Just focus on the main compound lifts - bench press, military press, squats, deadlifts, bent over rows, pull ups.

There's no need to do so much just cut it down, don't spend any more than an hour when you go to the gym, work out with intensity, don't worry so much about a schedule, just listen to your body, train smart, train correctly, warm up, stretch, warm down, eat plenty of good food, and don't worry so much about how your body looks.

You will continue to get stronger and fitter if you treat the weights with respect. I don't know why people want to be "buff" for. Who gives a shit? You can still get some really hot chicks without being muscular. Unless you are training for a sport where size is required (i.e. key position football player, rugby player, wrestler), if I were doing weights I would be happy just to be making progress on strength and feeling good.

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Weight Training Program

Hmm, I'll try and explain it.

Main compound lifts - tried it - sent me backwards for some reason, maybe because that was what I started with.

Working out less than I do gives me less results. It's annoying. I just make sure I eat a shitload and sleep a shitload.

Some big guy at the gym (think his name is trent?) said I wasn't overtraining and as long as I kept eating lots of good food and that I always got a good night sleep, I would be fine.

I'm not actually going for the look so I can get the bitches, I couldn't care less what they think, I have a girlfriend anyway and she doesn't care. This is for self confidence because I've always been into the whole 'muscle' thing and also because I have never been a strong muscly kid and now I'm seeing heaps of results, playing a contact sport like rugby is also something I want to do eventually but currently can't due to having to do other things at this time.
This is a slightly altered program I was given for weight and strength gain and I'm never in the gym more than an hour unless I miss a few days or I'm having a one off lazy day.

I dunno how to explain my workout I guess, I think it's just the good results I've been getting from this one compared to my older ones.

 

[FlipFoot]

Re: Weight Training Program

Hmm, I'll try and explain it.

Main compound lifts - tried it - sent me backwards for some reason, maybe because that was what I started with.

Working out less than I do gives me less results. It's annoying. I just make sure I eat a shitload and sleep a shitload.

Some big guy at the gym (think his name is trent?) said I wasn't overtraining and as long as I kept eating lots of good food and that I always got a good night sleep, I would be fine.

I'm not actually going for the look so I can get the bitches, I couldn't care less what they think, I have a girlfriend anyway and she doesn't care. This is for self confidence because I've always been into the whole 'muscle' thing and also because I have never been a strong muscly kid and now I'm seeing heaps of results, playing a contact sport like rugby is also something I want to do eventually but currently can't due to having to do other things at this time.
This is a slightly altered program I was given for weight and strength gain and I'm never in the gym more than an hour unless I miss a few days or I'm having a one off lazy day.

I dunno how to explain my workout I guess, I think it's just the good results I've been getting from this one compared to my older ones.

I agree with Coolangatta, you are over training. You don't need anywhere near what you are doing. It's stalling your muscle growth big time. There are reasons you didn't grow much when you tried compound exercises, but i can assure you it will work much better if you do what Coolangatta suggested. It was probably a combination of diet and your program. If you monitor what you eat and train sensibly, you'll grow.

Head over to fitday.com and enter in what you eat. Find out what you need for maintenance calories and add around 500 or so to that. If you're eating healthy, whole foods then you should bulk up over time. Over training is one of the best ways to stop your growth, and it's disheartening to do all that work and not see any results.

The results will come, but you need to eat alot, rest alot, and only spend around an hour at the most hitting the weights. Go 3-4 times a week, and realise that it takes time for most people to bulk up. Particularly playing Aussie rules, as the amount of cardio required tends to deplete your muscle mass over the course of the season.

 

[AG]

Re: Weight Training Program

I was the same as you Mcuzzy when I started out.
I've been 193cm's since about Year 10 but I was the lankiest thing you'd ever see. I weighed about 72 kg's when I started doing weights and I fell into the trap of thinking more lifting = greater results. I was completely wrong. I spent 2 years wasting my time in the school gym and barely eating enough.
I'd strongly, strongly recommend Ripptoe's program that has already been mentioned. It's good advice. I'm 22 now, weigh 95 kg's and I'm happy with my build. Just be efficient in the gym and eat enough food. Results will come.

 

[kBuck]

Re: Weight Training Program

Oberfuhrer Abetz, do you have a sports science degree?
Ps. why hasn't anyone mentioned the 4 phases of weight training, if these guys are new to weights they need to be told. (no i cbf :> )

 

[Oberfuhrer Abetz]

Re: Weight Training Program

Na just interested in the subject, got a bit of a science background at uni though.

With the 4 phases do you mean the Bompa style of Anatomical Adaption, Hypertrophy, Strength and Power or the Russian style of Accumulation, Intensification, Realisation and Restoration?

This is the problem, there is a wide range of confusing terminology in the strength world that all mean the same thing.

It all comes down to imo the same conclusions:

Beginners do whatever you want because your body is so untrained/unadapted anything will work (Although I still advise to do a proven program to get best results).

Intermediates (where I am now) periodise between workouts (concurrent) e.g. one workout go low and heavy the next go bodybuilding style. This is similar to the texas method of Volume Recovery Intensity or Westside.

Advanced spend a few weeks to a month focus on building muscle and strengthening your tendons ligaments, same with strength, same with power if required for your sport, and chuck in a week or two off when needed for recovery. Then start all over again.

Bored at work so figured I would chuck in what I am currently doing:

Upper Body Hard and Heavy
Build up to a heavy single/double in a Bench Variation

Lower Body Hard and Heavy
Build up to a heavy triple in a Squat Variation
Build up to a heavy single in the DL when I cbf.

Upper Body Pump Session
5 x 10 Chest
5 x 10 Back
3 x 10 Shoulders
3 x 10 Guns
3 x 10 Triceps
Prehab stuff if needed

Lower Body Pump Session
5 x 10 Quads
5 x 10 Hamstrings
3 x 10 Lower Back
5 x 20 Abs
1 x 20 Calves

 

[Schism]

Re: Weight Training Program

I think beyond the novice level there is alot to be said for instinct.

 

[Oberfuhrer Abetz]

Re: Weight Training Program

I think beyond the novice level there is alot to be said for instinct.

Instinct does play a major part, you need to be adjustable to how you are feeling as 5x5@85% on a Monday can be a completely different intensity as the exact same workout on a Friday depending on recovery etc.

However I believe a overall guide/plan is needed as most are either lazy, go overboard in volume or change what they are trying to accomplish every 5 minutes. Its also important if you're training for an event or whatever and you want to peak as when you are doing a planned overtraining/ supercompensation cycle you feel like shit and want to give up.

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Weight Training Program

I'm gonna back the people who have seen me and seen me workout in the gym when they say I'm not overtraining.

At first I wasn't eating or sleeping enough and once I did I started gaining.

I'll read all this over when I'm not as drunk

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Weight Training Program

I was the same as you Mcuzzy when I started out.
I've been 193cm's since about Year 10 but I was the lankiest thing you'd ever see. I weighed about 72 kg's when I started doing weights and I fell into the trap of thinking more lifting = greater results. I was completely wrong. I spent 2 years wasting my time in the school gym and barely eating enough.
I'd strongly, strongly recommend Ripptoe's program that has already been mentioned. It's good advice. I'm 22 now, weigh 95 kg's and I'm happy with my build. Just be efficient in the gym and eat enough food. Results will come.

Cheers Aussie, Reps to you.

Like I said though, have had a previous workout to this and had lesser results. Guess I'll just have to wait til I fill out when I'm older and more developed.

 

[mdc]

Re: Weight Training Program

Like I said though, have had a previous workout to this and had lesser results. Guess I'll just have to wait til I fill out when I'm older and more developed.

When you're starting out, overtraining may often produce better results for a period of time, particularly if you're not pushing yourself in terms of intensity.

But there's absolutely no question that the program you put up is way over the top, and will hinder your progress beyond a certain point. Not only are you doing far too much, your choice of splits is also incredibly bad imo.

If you want to put on weight, listen to what the others in the thread are telling you, and find a good, simple program, with no more that 5-6 exercises per day, and no more than 4 days a week. Take your legs day for example...you're doing all these leg curls, which aren't functional in the least and won't help you put on weight whatsoever. They're marginally useful for bodybuilders who need to shape or whatever, but completely pointless in your case. Find someone who is willing to teach you how to deadlift and squat properly, and you'll see progress much quicker.

At the moment, your program reads as though it's been written by an overzealous noob PT, who just wanted to show you all the exercises he was taught in his 6-week course.

 

[Schism]

Re: Weight Training Program

Instinct does play a major part, you need to be adjustable to how you are feeling as 5x5@85% on a Monday can be a completely different intensity as the exact same workout on a Friday depending on recovery etc.

However I believe a overall guide/plan is needed as most are either lazy, go overboard in volume or change what they are trying to accomplish every 5 minutes. Its also important if you're training for an event or whatever and you want to peak as when you are doing a planned overtraining/ supercompensation cycle you feel like shit and want to give up.

I believe instinct can replace guides,volumes,percentages and so on.It certainly does for me.But it's probably a late stage intermediate to advanced lifter thing.Sometimes for chest i do 5 sets of 8,other times 3 sets of 6,other times 4 sets of 10.I just chuck the ipod on and go.How my workout pans out depends on my first set.From how i feel on that set,my mind just automatically judges how many sets and reps,and at what weights,i need to do that day.I barely even think about it.Sometimes for chest i just walk in,do say,6 sets of 8 reps on incline bench,then walk out.

I have absolutely no idea what my 1,2 or 5 rep max's are on any exercise.I'm too busy lifting weights to figure it out