What I don't understand

[demondavey]

What I don't understand is how everyone says if you are trying to build muscle you shouldn't be doing more than 2-3 cardio workouts a week, otherwise you start to lose muscle. Looking at AFL players, it doesn't quite make sense. They do lots of gym, and a hell of a lot of running, and somehow they don't lose muscle. Look at guys like nick reiwolt and ben brown from north melbourne. They are absolute endurance machines, and are somehow very bulky at the same time. So, does lots of cardio really burn away muscle? Or is it all just a myth...

AFL players aren’t big

 

[Macpotata]

The key is balance. Doing cardio won't make you lose muscle. Doing too much cardio, or not Eating enough, or worse, both, will make you lose muscle.


Depends on your metabolic rate and if you gain muscle easy/hard also. Id suggest doing cardio, you will look better but more importantly feel better.


Fucj being a Bulky campaigner. You have to have low body fat anyway to see muscle/def/leaness.

You're going to have to cut anyway. It's a hell of a lot of work if you're just gonna bulk for months oN END. Unless it's lean muscle, you're going to have to strip the fat. Which is hard work and dedication.

 

[demondavey]

The key is balance. Doing cardio won't make you lose muscle. Doing too much cardio, or not Eating enough, or worse, both, will make you lose muscle.


Depends on your metabolic rate and if you gain muscle easy/hard also. Id suggest doing cardio, you will look better but more importantly feel better.


Fucj being a Bulky campaigner. You have to have low body fat anyway to see muscle/def/leaness.

You're going to have to cut anyway. It's a hell of a lot of work if you're just gonna bulk for months oN END. Unless it's lean muscle, you're going to have to strip the fat. Which is hard work and dedication.

I agree. Losing body fat is hard without cardio I reckon. Sticking to a strict diet is tough. Lucky i don’t drink. I am 100kg and maintaining my muscle mass and strength is hard when I really pull back my eating volume.

HIIT is really effective, but I do some pretty lengthy and intense weights sessions so I am done by the end!

 

[Macpotata]

I agree. Losing body fat is hard without cardio I reckon. Sticking to a strict diet is tough. Lucky i don’t drink. I am 100kg and maintaining my muscle mass and strength is hard when I really pull back my eating volume.

HIIT is really effective, but I do some pretty lengthy and intense weights sessions so I am done by the end!

good post.

Yep hard to lose body fat without cardio, as you said means you have to cut back on calories, which is also hard if you're lifting, as weights make you hungry and will want your body to put on muscle anyway meaning you need sufficient calories.

If you're just doing weights, you're going to need more calories anyway. Easy to gain fat for MOST people Not everyone does intense workouts or has good genetics.

Back to losing weight just cutting calories. It takes a long time. If someone just bulks, again for most people who don't do cardio, that's going to equal a lot of weight gain. Not just muscle, but fat. It's hard to lose it through diet, will come off quicker through exercise, but that also means a lot of work and time dedicated to losing the fat/burning calories. Also strenuous on the body/joints. A lot of people can't sustain weight cuts over x amount of time.

Which leads me back to original point. Don't let the fat/weight tick over. The more you bulk, the more work you're going to have to do to get it off.

 

[demondavey]

good post.

Yep hard to lose body fat without cardio, as you said means you have to cut back on calories, which is also hard if you're lifting, as weights make you hungry and will want your body to put on muscle anyway meaning you need sufficient calories.

If you're just doing weights, you're going to need more calories anyway. Easy to gain fat for MOST people Not everyone does intense workouts or has good genetics.

Back to losing weight just cutting calories. It takes a long time. If someone just bulks, again for most people who don't do cardio, that's going to equal a lot of weight gain. Not just muscle, but fat. It's hard to lose it through diet, will come off quicker through exercise, but that also means a lot of work and time dedicated to losing the fat/burning calories. Also strenuous on the body/joints. A lot of people can't sustain weight cuts over x amount of time.

Which leads me back to original point. Don't let the fat/weight tick over. The more you bulk, the more work you're going to have to do to get it off.

Yes well put.

When you lift you really need the calories, when your body asks for fuel you’ve got to give it. And when you lift your body asks more and more. You’ll inevitably add some body fat, but you can eat well at the same time. My lifting numbers wouldn’t be where they are (and it’s taken a really really long time) without eating lots of food and training 3-4 days a week for the last 10-15 years.

As you get older your metabolism also slows, I’ve noticed that a lot. But having that muscle on board makes a big difference to looking after yourself and slowing ageing.

It’s funny. I think as you get older you get stronger, a lot stronger. For the first time in years and years I am lifting the 40kg dumbbells on the incline for 5s. When i was 28 that would’ve been too much on the flat! Because I am off the drink and i eat really well now I think it’s stabilised my routine and habits. The gym is what I look forward to the most now.

 

[Macpotata]

Yes well put.

When you lift you really need the calories, when your body asks for fuel you’ve got to give it. And when you lift your body asks more and more. You’ll inevitably add some body fat, but you can eat well at the same time. My lifting numbers wouldn’t be where they are (and it’s taken a really really long time) without eating lots of food and training 3-4 days a week for the last 10-15 years.

As you get older your metabolism also slows, I’ve noticed that a lot. But having that muscle on board makes a big difference to looking after yourself and slowing ageing.

It’s funny. I think as you get older you get stronger, a lot stronger. For the first time in years and years I am lifting the 40kg dumbbells on the incline for 5s. When i was 28 that would’ve been too much on the flat! Because I am off the drink and i eat really well now I think it’s stabilised my routine and habits. The gym is what I look forward to the most now.

That's a good post. I agree mate, I've got stronger with age too. With you on alcohol, routine and looking forward to training also!

 

[demondavey]

That's a good post. I agree mate, I've got stronger with age too. With you on alcohol, routine and looking forward to training also!

I’ve never realised how much alcohol impacts your fitness until I’d given it away. Yeah and age. It’s weird how much stronger I’ve got and also how bigger I am. Maybe maturity does come with age!

 

[Macpotata]

I’ve never realised how much alcohol impacts your fitness until I’d given it away. Yeah and age. It’s weird how much stronger I’ve got and also how bigger I am. Maybe maturity does come with age!

haha yeah with age comes wisdom!

And on alcohol, how about all those calories. What a waste!

 

[saj_21]

good post.

Yep hard to lose body fat without cardio, as you said means you have to cut back on calories, which is also hard if you're lifting, as weights make you hungry and will want your body to put on muscle anyway meaning you need sufficient calories.

If you're just doing weights, you're going to need more calories anyway. Easy to gain fat for MOST people Not everyone does intense workouts or has good genetics.

Back to losing weight just cutting calories. It takes a long time. If someone just bulks, again for most people who don't do cardio, that's going to equal a lot of weight gain. Not just muscle, but fat. It's hard to lose it through diet, will come off quicker through exercise, but that also means a lot of work and time dedicated to losing the fat/burning calories. Also strenuous on the body/joints. A lot of people can't sustain weight cuts over x amount of time.

Which leads me back to original point. Don't let the fat/weight tick over. The more you bulk, the more work you're going to have to do to get it off.

I can’t disagree more with your statement “it’s harder to lose weight through diet”
“It will come off quicker through exercise”

It’s all about diet, you can’t out exercise a bad diet. Tell me what is easier no eating 500 calories or going for a 5km run to burn those same 500 calories? The easiest calories you burn are the ones you don’t eat.

Physiologically is easier to burn body fat with reduce calories

Psychologically it’s harder to burn body fat through low calories .......It sucks to be hungry all the time

 

[Macpotata]

I can’t disagree more with your statement “it’s harder to lose weight through diet”
“It will come off quicker through exercise”

It’s all about diet, you can’t out exercise a bad diet. Tell me what is easier no eating 500 calories or going for a 5km run to burn those same 500 calories? The easiest calories you burn are the ones you don’t eat.

Physiologically is easier to burn body fat with reduce calories

Psychologically it’s harder to burn body fat through low calories .......It sucks to be hungry all the time

You misinterpreted what I said. You should be doing both. As for '' harder '' = longer as in f you are just dieting and not exercising.

Of course dieting is a huge component. That's a given. No need to state the obvious. We're beyond talking basics.

For all these people that say doing cardio burns muscle, well after you have gained the muscle, what are you going to do, just diet? Will you not burn muscle anyway after you have gained it, then do cardio to strip the fat?

My point was if you're just going to diet to lose the fat, it's going to take a shit load of time which it will. You're still going to be lifting weights, you're still going to be hungry because your body wants fuel to gain muscle. So how much are you going to reduce your intake when you're body still wants to grow muscle. You're going to be hungry as ****. You're going to have your calorie intake pretty low to lose weight, which takes a lot of time. Again, if you're lifting, you're going to be hungry. Not many calories to work with.

Captain obvious diet is important. But so is the cardio. I don't care much for people that juice or are just about being '' big ''

what good is that if you can't run 100m or be able to throw a punch?



BALANCE.


That is all.

 

[Macpotata]

And if it just about looks, aesthetically you're going to look a shit load better by doing cardio also as well. Just look at any UFC fighter, boxer, Sprinter, certain NFL players and Body Builders etc.



Whatever. Be strong on the inside, strong in the mind. If you haven't got that first and foremost, you aint shit.

 

[Dr Tigris]

Compared to Rugby League players (The Raiders used to train at my gym and I'd end up being surrounded by them) the AFL players are much leaner and less muscled. But very different needs in the sports.

Anyway. Onto cardio vs muscle building. It's really what you are trying to do.
If you want massive muscles then cardio takes away from bulk, because : 1) you have to eat much more due to the energy exerted, so more likely to not grow as much, and 2) your body adapts to your exercise. Thus, lots cardio = smaller more endurance musculature.

Also certain players naturally bulk up. So someone like Dusty Martin hardly goes into the gym. He'd get too big. So for him the trade off is very different to the skinny guys that have play in the gym all the time to have muscles. Some people really don't have that trade of, whilst for others it's huge.

 

[saj_21]

You misinterpreted what I said. You should be doing both. As for '' harder '' = longer as in f you are just dieting and not exercising.

Of course dieting is a huge component. That's a given. No need to state the obvious. We're beyond talking basics.

For all these people that say doing cardio burns muscle, well after you have gained the muscle, what are you going to do, just diet? Will you not burn muscle anyway after you have gained it, then do cardio to strip the fat?

My point was if you're just going to diet to lose the fat, it's going to take a shit load of time which it will. You're still going to be lifting weights, you're still going to be hungry because your body wants fuel to gain muscle. So how much are you going to reduce your intake when you're body still wants to grow muscle. You're going to be hungry as ****. You're going to have your calorie intake pretty low to lose weight, which takes a lot of time. Again, if you're lifting, you're going to be hungry. Not many calories to work with.

Captain obvious diet is important. But so is the cardio. I don't care much for people that juice or are just about being '' big ''

what good is that if you can't run 100m or be able to throw a punch?



BALANCE.


That is all.

Maybe I didn’t misinterpret anything, maybe you just didn’t construct your statement correctly.

When you train and diet you need to prioritise what you are doing it for. Are you trying to bulk up, are you trying to get stronger in a specific lift or just trying to look good. Then again your priority maybe to get as fit as possible for footy.

Specifically training to lose body fat and look good, I know what it takes I’ve been at low levels of bodyfat. My training and diet was all about losing bodyfat. It sucked I was hungry all the time but because my goal was to lose bodyfat I just suffered through it, that was the priority. Being a natural lifter too loss of lean body mass was inevitable.

I did cardio in conjunction with weight training, but diet drove the weight loss. I was meticulous with the calorie intake and only dropped 200 calories every 1-3 weeks.

 

[zyzzbruh]

Because they also eat like machines

 

[saj_21]

Because they also eat like machines

No that isn’t the reason. As noted footballers physiques are not that great compared to natural bodybuilders. If anything the calorie intake from a high training load is what is holding their physique back.

But there is no reason for footballers to be sub 5% body fat this would hinder their performance.

 

[Gralin]

No that isn’t the reason. As noted footballers physiques are not that great compared to natural bodybuilders. If anything the calorie intake from a high training load is what is holding their physique back.

But there is no reason for footballers to be sub 5% body fat this would hinder their performance.

I thought somewhere around 10-12% was considered optimal for athletic performance but I can't remember where I read that

 

[zyzzbruh]

No that isn’t the reason. As noted footballers physiques are not that great compared to natural bodybuilders. If anything the calorie intake from a high training load is what is holding their physique back.

But there is no reason for footballers to be sub 5% body fat this would hinder their performance.

A players physique and diet at the end of the day is the ideal combination when it comes to optimal human performance and pushing your body to its limit without compensating with health. bodybuilding is purely aesthetic. There's no doubt afl players do have decent solid bodies and that is because the high calories they are consuming allows them to pack on muscle despite their high energy output from cardio. If their resistance and weight training equalled that of a bodybuilder I'm sure they wouldn't be too far off physique wise

 

[saj_21]

A players physique and diet at the end of the day is the ideal combination when it comes to optimal human performance and pushing your body to its limit without compensating with health. bodybuilding is purely aesthetic. There's no doubt afl players do have decent solid bodies and that is because the high calories they are consuming allows them to pack on muscle despite their high energy output from cardio. If their resistance and weight training equalled that of a bodybuilder I'm sure they wouldn't be too far off physique wise

I would disagree that afl players have decent bodies, sure you get some outliers like Majak Daw or Jager O’Mera. But more and more these days players are slimming down, carrying less weight to increase their running capability.

Gone are the days of the hulking physique of Nathan Buckley or Michael Voss. This leads to players having the skinny fat appearance, small arms and hold weight around the lower belly.

I’m only using natural body builders as a comparison of how they look because i disagree with the OP that overall footballers have good bodies.

 

[demondavey]

No that isn’t the reason. As noted footballers physiques are not that great compared to natural bodybuilders. If anything the calorie intake from a high training load is what is holding their physique back.

But there is no reason for footballers to be sub 5% body fat this would hinder their performance.

Gee you love pulling people up for being ‘wrong’ don’t you?

 

[zyzzbruh]

I would disagree that afl players have decent bodies, sure you get some outliers like Majak Daw or Jager O’Mera. But more and more these days players are slimming down, carrying less weight to increase their running capability.

Gone are the days of the hulking physique of Nathan Buckley or Michael Voss. This leads to players having the skinny fat appearance, small arms and hold weight around the lower belly.

I’m only using natural body builders as a comparison of how they look because i disagree with the OP that overall footballers have good bodies.

definitely noticed this aswell the last couple of years. The bigger bodies still do exist though (luke parker, kennedy, rance, wines, danger, dusty, fyfe) there's a fair few of them and I think they're still the better players running around these days. Maybe the scrawnier ones are being poorly managed by their performance departments, taking time to realise and adjust training and diet with increased running loads. I wouldn't think it's deliberately done

 

[CatFan79]

Also certain players naturally bulk up. So someone like Dusty Martin hardly goes into the gym. He'd get too big. So for him the trade off is very different to the skinny guys that have play in the gym all the time to have muscles. Some people really don't have that trade of, whilst for others it's huge.

I remember Josh Hunt was banned from the gym, enormous frame.

What's interesting though, the taller guys with the more lean, athletic physiques are usually the strongest. I find this consistent with what I see in the gym also.

 

[saj_21]

Gee you love pulling people up for being ‘wrong’ don’t you?

When it comes to areas I know about than yes I will.


Maybe I was a little heavy handed, I see the comment I quoted was just an off the cuff comment rather than a counter argument.

 

[saj_21]

definitely noticed this aswell the last couple of years. The bigger bodies still do exist though (luke parker, kennedy, rance, wines, danger, dusty, fyfe) there's a fair few of them and I think they're still the better players running around these days. Maybe the scrawnier ones are being poorly managed by their performance departments, taking time to realise and adjust training and diet with increased running loads. I wouldn't think it's deliberately done

The bigger bodies will always exist, the fact is players now will place more importance on their 2km time trial or repeat sprint times. To a certain degree how much you bench press is irrelevant (you still want to be compentant enough to compete strength wise)

Fyfe is the perfect example of the modern day build, 6’3 and his ideal playing weight would be around 88kg give or take. He is “smaller” upper body than his 90s counter parts but he has legs of steel.

Just as you have outliers say as daw or omera you will have outliers the other way who can’t for the life of them put on decent muscle mass. Being a melbourne supporter cale Morton comes to mind. But one of our best ever players Robbie flower was a rake but could play the game.

 

[Aeglos]

I remember Josh Hunt was banned from the gym, enormous frame.

What's interesting though, the taller guys with the more lean, athletic physiques are usually the strongest. I find this consistent with what I see in the gym also.

You and I must go to very different gyms lol.
The lean athletic guys (and I’m thinking of a Lachlan Keefe build as he’s an actually example of this) I see are getting outlifted by a few of the stockier/jacked girls.
For example, he’s comfortably outlifted on the main barbell lifts by this 70-75kg woman.
https://strongwomanaustralia.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/joanne-greagen1.jpg

 

[demondavey]

When it comes to areas I know about than yes I will.


Maybe I was a little heavy handed, I see the comment I quoted was just an off the cuff comment rather than a counter argument.

What are your qualifications or training background?