Strategy What is going wrong? A discussion of tactics, strategy and execution issues and how to fix them

[Strapping Young Lad]

i dont really understand how saying our club hasn't coped with the lockdown while plenty of other vic teams have is a cop-out

is it not a pretty serious indictment on our list, leaders and staff?

Absolutely.


Are people actually going to argue that we’ve handled the HUB’s well, and taken it all in our stride? That’s clearly not the case.


I’m not sure where any evidence of that can be found that we’ve handled the hubs well, unless you get sucked in by the social media snippets of players saying “yeah, I’m enjoying the hubs”.

 

[Cyril says]

I know the umpires think Clarko has made their job harder.

That said I reckon the game is poorer since 2016 for allowing this chaos style that has favoured the Tigers and the Dogs.

The Eagles have shown that key forwards and elite centre unit with running and marking can defeat this style from time to time - I’d love the chaos style umpires out of the game.

The 6/6/6 should favour our game style by opening up the field - but we are a Coniglio/Shiel/Cripps short in that regard and our kicking just is t good enough to play that style.

I understand we have been training in the ‘Richmond style’ but not playing that way - perhaps we unleash it next year once many of the older players retire?

 

[savagelunchbox]

I know the umpires think Clarko has made their job harder.

Funny you should say that.
Before the Essendon game and Port game, Clarko went up to the field umpires in the race and had 2-3min friendly chat with them, shaking their hands in the modified way we see due to COVID, sharing jokes, etc.

There didn't appear to be any hostility or animosity towards either party.

 

[TylerDurden]

Funny you should say that.
Before the Essendon game and Port game, Clarko went up to the field umpires in the race and had 2-3min friendly chat with them, shaking their hands in the modified way we see due to COVID, sharing jokes, etc.

There didn't appear to be any hostility or animosity towards either party.

Worked in the Port game

 

[savagelunchbox]

Worked in the Port game

Exactly.
It's hard to buy into the 'umpires hate Hawthorn/Clarkson' narrative when you see that before games. Even more so when CScott continually criticizes the umpiring, far more than Clarko ever has, yet they continually get kissed on the dick.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Exactly.
It's hard to buy into the 'umpires hate Hawthorn/Clarkson' narrative when you see that before games. Even more so when CScott continually criticizes the umpiring, far more than Clarko ever has, yet they continually get kissed on the dick.

The umpires don't hate us and deliberately try to sabotage us. Just like they didn't favor us in our glory years like the morons have tried to claim (despite all stats suggesting otherwise).

It's just an excuse fans use because they are struggling to accept the fact we are actually rubbish now. They are looking for excuses to rationalize the situation.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The umpires don't hate us and deliberately try to sabotage us. Just like they didn't favor us in our glory years like the morons have tried to claim (despite all stats suggesting otherwise).

It's just an excuse fans use because they are struggling to accept the fact we are actually rubbish now. They are looking for excuses to rationalize the situation.

You’re confusing two things. Our form and the dubious umpiring at different times.

The umpires are incompetent and fail to understand basic rules. The string of non-decisions in the Port game were a consequence of this, as well as the influence of the crowd. Simple and basic free kicks completely missed, not because of bias, but incompetence.

It’s less to do with Hawthorn and more to do with the continual fiddling of rules and interpretations.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

You’re confusing two things. Our form and the dubious umpiring at different times.

The umpires are incompetent and fail to understand basic rules. The string of non-decisions in the Port game were a consequence of this, as well as the influence of the crowd. Simple and basic free kicks completely missed, not because of bias, but incompetence.

It’s less to do with Hawthorn and more to do with the continual fiddling of rules and interpretations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the umpiring or the AFL "brains trust" who continually tinker and change things for the worse. Both are incompetent, though I feel that the AFL makes it so much harder for the umpires than it should be.

I just don't buy into the prevailing conspiracy theories that the umpires are doing it to us on purpose.

 

[almuz]

I think we need a coaching staff revamp this offseason - which should* help spruce up the game style.

Looking at what Bombers are doing trying to become a handball heavy team like Tigers - no thanks. Pretty keen to move away from this 10 talls, kick down the line business too - really poor man's WCE.

Hopefully we can bring in a new fitness guru and move towards a play on at all cost type game style

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Maynard just knocks Robinson over no free. If that was Sicily my god a free and 50m. Perfect example.

 

[Gaston]

I think we need a coaching staff revamp this offseason - which should* help spruce up the game style.

This isn't easy but Clarko unfortunately through his and the entire clubs excellence has lost a wealth of quality individuals.
Some quick names, Bevo, Hardwick, Simpson, Fagan, Ratten, Evans (GC CEO), Fox (Now CEO at MCC). David Rath.

Just like our playing list compared to the 3 peat side, the names in the coaching box would not hold a candle to this lot.

Clarkson (although the optimist) may have to ask himself do we start from scratch again and do a mini rebuild of
the club and not just the football side/department? Could be that the current minions don't provide the solid
foundation of past years.

Perhaps we start with Dean Solomon.

 

[TylerDurden]

This isn't easy but Clarko unfortunately through his and the entire clubs excellence has lost a wealth of quality individuals.
Some quick names, Bevo, Hardwick, Simpson, Fagan, Ratten, Evans (GC CEO), Fox (Now CEO at MCC). David Rath.

Just like our playing list compared to the 3 peat side, the names in the coaching box would not hold a candle to this lot.

Clarkson (although the optimist) may have to ask himself do we start from scratch again and do a mini rebuild of
the club and not just the football side/department? Could be that the current minions don't provide the solid
foundation of past years.

Perhaps we start with Dean Solomon.

Would've thought Burgoyne gets a gig next year.

 

[thejockey]

i dont really understand how saying our club hasn't coped with the lockdown while plenty of other vic teams have is a cop-out

is it not a pretty serious indictment on our list, leaders and staff?

We have gone from having by far the best leaders in the AFL to basically none .

People rightfully talk Hodge, Mitchell but we genuinely had 8-10 guys who could have captained . We had genuine leaders on every line . We were spoilt for it .

We dont have the talent now , but strong leadership wouldnt have allowed this seasons performance .

We can get as much talent in as we want , but the leadership issue is a very real one for us and this season has proven it .

 

[savagelunchbox]

According to the suspiciously thin Shhhhh post, with old 'inside' goss that wasn't inside, we're not playing the inexperienced players because we feel they need protecting. #protecttheyoungsters

What other clubs do that?
What other clubs have done that and found their youngsters got brutalised to the point of no return, consequently preventing their development? No, I'm not talking about scoreboard results. That's more to do with culture.

Compare that with the 'Clarkson deciples':
Hardwick - Didn't really do it initially, but once he started, it coincided with the team success.
Bevo - Has always done it. Never backfired.
Simpson - Hasn't needed to, but isn't scared to reward youth.
Fagan - Has always done it. Patience is showing its rewards now.
Cameron - Has had to. Can't really think of any that were thrown in too early and affected badly because of it.
Ratten - If he feels a youth player will be the best player to play that role when they're contending, he's been playing them. Max King is a skinny kid playing in a physically brutal position of the ground yet no one is crying out to rest him or have teammates on the ground protect him.

I don't buy for a second that they need protecting. There's no strong evidence to suggest young players need protecting in this modern style of game.

There's more to this than meets the eye. Roger Rogerson has a differing theory that can raise some good discussions. I'll leave him to see if he wants to put forward his theory as I don't want to plagiarize.

 

[Brant]

According to the suspiciously thin Shhhhh post, with old 'inside' goss that wasn't inside, we're not playing the inexperienced players because we feel they need protecting. #protecttheyoungsters

What other clubs do that?
What other clubs have done that and found their youngsters got brutalised to the point of no return, consequently preventing their development? No, I'm not talking about scoreboard results. That's more to do with culture.

Compare that with the 'Clarkson deciples':
Hardwick - Didn't really do it initially, but once he started, it coincided with the team success.
Bevo - Has always done it. Never backfired.
Simpson - Hasn't needed to, but isn't scared to reward youth.
Fagan - Has always done it. Patience is showing its rewards now.
Cameron - Has had to. Can't really think of any that were thrown in too early and affected badly because of it.
Ratten - If he feels a youth player will be the best player to play that role when they're contending, he's been playing them. Max King is a skinny kid playing in a physically brutal position of the ground yet no one is crying out to rest him or have teammates on the ground protect him.

I don't buy for a second that they need protecting. There's no strong evidence to suggest young players need protecting in this modern style of game.

There's more to this than meets the eye. Roger Rogerson has a differing theory that can raise some good discussions. I'll leave him to see if he wants to put forward his theory as I don't want to plagiarize.

I think we play a very different style to those clubs. They’re free-flowing, with more outside run. For some stupid reason, we seem to be trying to force the contest or stoppage (despite being pretty sh*t at contested footy & spreading from the contest & playing our only competent ruckman up to 100m away from the contest we’ve chosen to force).

We kick to packs & try to force the contest or stoppage as we crab our way up the field & we rely on being competent tacklers, stopping or blocking the run of our opponents (yes, I see the irony here).

I reckon ours is a more physically demanding game style, so there’s that. Strangely, our better players at the moment don’t seem to buy into that garbage I just said.

I’m not going to check, but I wonder if we generate considerably more tackles than other clubs, or get tackled more Than other clubs?

 

[Judd2Sewell]

There's just no point playing old guys that are not only underperforming, but they won't be around in the immediate future, never mind the long term future.

Especially this season with no actual VFL to develop our youngsters. They are out there having a kick 'n giggle each week. As if they are getting anything out of those matches. They could actually develop and learn something at AFL level though by playing on the best in meaningful games. They are essentially losing a season of proper development.

It comes across as a little bit of a cop out excuse for being questioned on stubbornly playing the tired old guard. Hopefully we see that injection of youth that we were promised this week.

 

[savagelunchbox]

I think we play a very different style to those clubs. They’re free-flowing, with more outside run. For some stupid reason, we seem to be trying to force the contest or stoppage (despite being pretty sh*t at contested footy & spreading from the contest & playing our only competent ruckman up to 100m away from the contest we’ve chosen to force).

We kick to packs & try to force the contest or stoppage as we crab our way up the field & we rely on being competent tacklers, stopping or blocking the run of our opponents (yes, I see the irony here).

I reckon ours is a more physically demanding game style, so there’s that. Strangely, our better players at the moment don’t seem to buy into that garbage I just said.

I’m not going to check, but I wonder if we generate considerably more tackles than other clubs, or get tackled more Than other clubs?

All very valid points. It may well be more physically demanding. Hard to say without playing. We also guard space, which is as bruise free as you can get, so there is that too.
I had similar thoughts that you have too, trying to justify it, but it doesn't make logical sense because it'll result a never-ending cycle of mediocrity.

If you look at the youth we have played, none of them have needed protecting and no supporter has questioned if they're physically ready either.

 

[Brishawk]

According to the suspiciously thin Shhhhh post, with old 'inside' goss that wasn't inside, we're not playing the inexperienced players because we feel they need protecting. #protecttheyoungsters

What other clubs do that?
What other clubs have done that and found their youngsters got brutalised to the point of no return, consequently preventing their development? No, I'm not talking about scoreboard results. That's more to do with culture.

Compare that with the 'Clarkson deciples':
Hardwick - Didn't really do it initially, but once he started, it coincided with the team success.
Bevo - Has always done it. Never backfired.
Simpson - Hasn't needed to, but isn't scared to reward youth.
Fagan - Has always done it. Patience is showing its rewards now.
Cameron - Has had to. Can't really think of any that were thrown in too early and affected badly because of it.
Ratten - If he feels a youth player will be the best player to play that role when they're contending, he's been playing them. Max King is a skinny kid playing in a physically brutal position of the ground yet no one is crying out to rest him or have teammates on the ground protect him.

I don't buy for a second that they need protecting. There's no strong evidence to suggest young players need protecting in this modern style of game.

There's more to this than meets the eye. Roger Rogerson has a differing theory that can raise some good discussions. I'll leave him to see if he wants to put forward his theory as I don't want to plagiarize.

Have by any chance taken a look at the history of the demons post about 2000? Loaded up on youth a few times. Top of draft youth. And floundered for two decades apart from the odd season. Gold Coast have churned through a stack of players in the same way. Carlton lost an entire generation of players. It has happened a lot. Those that make it through will be hardened but it will burn a lot of players. It isn’t clarko’s way.

 

[savagelunchbox]

Have by any chance taken a look at the history of the demons post about 2000? Loaded up on youth a few times. Top of draft youth. And floundered for two decades apart from the odd season. Gold Coast have churned through a stack of players in the same way. Carlton lost an entire generation of players. It has happened a lot. Those that make it through will be hardened but it will burn a lot of players. It isn’t clarko’s way.

Did you misread the bit where I said to ignore scoreboard results? Those 3 clubs also have no culture or a shockingly inbred culture.

But if you want to bet those 3 teams, I'll raise you Geelong early 2000's, Hawthorn mid 2000's, GWS inception, Port Adelaide 2018-present, Brisbane 2017-present.

I don't need to go on. Your three-of-a-kind loses to my full house.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

The idea that Hawthorn are the only club who want to make sure that their youngsters have support around them in experienced and more seasoned bodies is seriously odd.

 

[Brishawk]

Did you misread the bit where I said to ignore scoreboard results? Those 3 clubs also have no culture or a shockingly inbred culture.

But if you want to bet those 3 teams, I'll raise you Geelong early 2000's, Hawthorn mid 2000's, GWS inception, Port Adelaide 2018-present, Brisbane 2017-present.

I don't need to go on. Your three-of-a-kind loses to my full house.

Brisbane 2008-2017? A decade burning players. Players leaving. Yeah great example. What they did was recruit mature players to play with the kids. Lyons, Neale, Adams, McCarthy, Martin, Cameron, Robinson, walker, hodge, Birchall, beams, Ellis-yolmen, Jack Frost. All bar Martin recruited 2015 or later. Most from 2017 onwards. So they got mature bodies to protect the kids and it quickly turned them around from cellar dwellers to flag threats.

 

[Brishawk]

The idea that Hawthorn are the only club who want to make sure there youngsters have support around them in experienced and more seasoned bodies is seriously odd.

It’s delusional.

 

[savagelunchbox]

Brisbane 2008-2017? A decade burning players. Players leaving. Yeah great example. What they did was recruit mature players to play with the kids. Lyons, Neale, Adams, McCarthy, Martin, Cameron, Robinson, walker, hodge, Birchall, beams, Ellis-yolmen, Jack Frost. All bar Martin recruited 2015 or later. Most from 2017 onwards. So they got mature bodies to protect the kids and it quickly turned them around from cellar dwellers to flag threats.

Brisbane 2008-2017 had a shocking culture. Once they got rid of the cancer, and their culture improved so did their W/L.

But again, you're ignore my argument and again looking purely at the scoreboard. I'm looking at physical protection. Again, ignore results. Which Brisbane players have needed protection? Neale wasn't recruited because he was a mature. He's an A grade talent. But he's in the midfield with Berry, McLuggage, Rayner goes in there, Bailey goes in there, and they were playing a 1st gamer in there tonight. Look at their KPF's and their ruck. No one there to protect them, neither was there in defense when Andrews and Gardiners were babies. Hasn't effected them. And Charlie Cameron isn't protecting anyone. So who is being protected physically?
None of those players you mentioned were recruited to protect. Hodge/Birchall/Robinson for leadership, the rest were recruited to play a role.

And they're not giving games to the recruited players simply because they're experienced. Ellis-Yolman hasn't been, Adams has barely played, McCarthy has been dropped multiple times, Walker got delisted, and who the hell is Jack Frost? Hell of a lot of protection playing 2 games.

But what about GWS? Who was protecting their players? Cognilio was getting slaughtered physically from day dot. Shadow of a player he was thought to be, right? Same with Kelly, yeah? Or Shiel? Or Toranto? or Haynes? or Hopper? or Greene? or Green? I used to love watching Scully clean up opposition mids when he was a Giant... oh wait. If J.Cameron was protected he may be able to ask for a $1m with his new contract.

EDIT: For the record, Neale was playing very much the same type of role from day dot at Freo without needing protection. If only he had that protection, he may well have been in contention to win a Brownlow.
As were Cameron, Beams, Ellis-Yoeman, Robinson and Martin.

 

[Brishawk]

Brisbane 2008-2017 had a shocking culture. Once they got rid of the cancer, and their culture improved so did their W/L.

But again, you're ignore my argument and again looking purely at the scoreboard. I'm looking at physical protection. Again, ignore results. Which Brisbane players have needed protection? Neale wasn't recruited because he was a mature. He's an A grade talent. But he's in the midfield with Berry, McLuggage, Rayner goes in there, Bailey goes in there, and they were playing a 1st gamer in there tonight. Look at their KPF's and their ruck. No one there to protect them, neither was there in defense when Andrews and Gardiners were babies. Hasn't effected them. And Charlie Cameron isn't protecting anyone. So who is being protected physically?
None of those players you mentioned were recruited to protect. Hodge/Birchall/Robinson for leadership, the rest were recruited to play a role.

And they're not giving games to the recruited players simply because they're experienced. Ellis-Yolman hasn't been, Adams has barely played, McCarthy has been dropped multiple times, Walker got delisted, and who the hell is Jack Frost? Hell of a lot of protection playing 2 games.

But what about GWS? Who was protecting their players? Cognilio was getting slaughtered physically from day dot. Shadow of a player he was thought to be, right? Same with Kelly, yeah? Or Shiel? Or Toranto? or Haynes? or Hopper? or Greene? or Green? I used to love watching Scully clean up opposition mids when he was a Giant... oh wait. If J.Cameron was protected he may be able to ask for a $1m with his new contract.

You can't see the forrest for all the tress.

 

[savagelunchbox]

You can't see the forrest for all the tress.

I know, you can't counter-answer those points.

You can't see the difference between culture/leadership and protection.

I'll ask again, what are they being protected from? What other club/s are playing players purely to protect?