Strategy What is going wrong? A discussion of tactics, strategy and execution issues and how to fix them

[Gaston]

One glaring issue is the half back line, we don't have a designated person who we want to have ball in hand.
ie: W/Coast - Hurn.
Tigers - Short
Demons - Jetta, Salem

Look how differently we look when Day takes the game on, straight away your creating holes in defensive zones further up the field.
As stated, there are multiple issues but sometimes fixing the most glaring can minimise others.

 

[TylerDurden]

One glaring issue is the half back line, we don't have a designated person who we want to have ball in hand.
ie: W/Coast - Hurn.
Tigers - Short
Demons - Jetta, Salem

Look how differently we look when Day takes the game on, straight away your creating holes in defensive zones further up the field.
As stated, there are multiple issues but sometimes fixing the most glaring can minimise others.

Sicily.

 

[Brishawk]

It's hard to tell from not being able to see the whole ground only tv coverage view but when I see a player hesitating and looking for options I assume that nobody is running attempting to give options or if they are there is no confidence in the team mate to win the contest. I'm sure both phyisical and mental fitness has suffered because of the prevailing conditions but a lot of teams are in the same boat. I'd rather sink having a go than lose because of indecision.

You will often see players with the ball waving team mates towards the boundary. Can’t tell for sure but I assume this is because they are loitering in the corridor and making it impossible for us to centre the ball with a 45 degree kick. We work hard when the ball is in dispute and when we have it moving quickly but we don’t work hard enough during static play.

 

[Burtman]

Footy iq, we are an extremely dumb and poorly skilled team. All the best teams have multiple players with high footy iq. It helps you make the most of your opportunities. You don’t even have to be an amazing player, look at richmond and how dominant they’ve been the last few years. They’ve got some elite players but the rest are just good honest players but they have a high footy iq and work well together. Guys like Castagna, Bolton, rioli, Lambert probably aren’t in the top 200 players in the league but they seem to be smart and work well together. On our team atm I’d say sicily, day, Breust, gunston are the only players on the team with a high footy iq. Poppy does but his body just can’t do what it used to.

 

[On Topic]

Certainly there is an issue with the way we move the ball. There are two aspects to this. How we move it after winning it in broken play v how we move it in static play. Our tendency to charge in at the ball and with no concern for threats outside of the contest or being a threat outside the contest, mean that even when we do win it, we are surrounded by a crowd of players, mostly our own, and there are opponents outside of ours so they have no way of exiting the congestion. So we typically walk it on the boot or turn it over. IT would take a miracle to move the ball quickly and cleanly through the congestion.

Movement from static play is a different issue and the number one issue we have is that we do not proactively clear the corridor once we have a static play. We literally loiter at CHB to CHF until it looks like we are going to kick long down the line. It isn't even a case of skill or confidence to centre the ball, we simply don't even give ourselves a chance to do it. I don't think that is the game plan per se but rather players not understanding how to create dynamic play through movement off the ball.

Our zone defence is a problem and I suspect it is hard to fix those sorts of things with only one session a week and lots of issues. I think if we sort our ball movement out and not get sucked into the football we will get better field position and better forward fifty entries which takes the pressure off the midfield zone. When we get sucked in and they opposition win the ball out, we are all stuck on the side and it makes us look very slow. But actually we are just giving them a head start.

You are absolutely correct about the ball movement issues. We almost strangle ourselves in broken play and have no one to release the ball to in space.

I think the only time we look at all dangerous with ball movement is from turnovers. We seem to lower the eyes a bit more there, avoid the annoying circular handballs (probably a by-product of having too many players inside the contest) and have a lot of players push forward into space.

 

[H00t]

Our disposal efficiency was awful against Sydney and has been down all year. Now it’s easy to put blame on the people disposing of the ball but if no one is working hard to provide them an option it doesn’t matter how good the footskills are.

I remember an interview that was done somewhere in 2012-2015 talking about how good we were by foot and it was mentioned how much that was as a result of the work downfield to provide an option.

Two of our much maligned kickers Scully and Worpel have shown this in the last two weeks. Worpel hitting targets in the first half against Sydney and Scully hitting Gunston lace out twice for two goals against Melbourne.

These guys can kick we just have to provide options for them. Sure it might be easier when the kickers are hodge, Mitchell and Lewis.

But the bulldogs in 2016 were awful by foot but made it work by working so hard into space that it didn’t matter if the kick was off by a couple of meters because they had that much time from hard running that they could still get the ball forward quickly. And we can still kick the ball better than they could.

 

[savagelunchbox]

In short:

We're still trying to play the same game plan from the 3-peat era with only minor changes.

This gameplan was executed by copious amounts of elite players in various roles who were highly skilled, disciplined and suited to the gameplan.

The latter is the key to why we look like the worst side in the competition. Clarkson has tried to top up with like-for-like players using a moneyball approach, but you can't like-for-like elite players using that approach. Take David Hale for example. An elite role fwd/ruck. Since his retirement, we've tried to moneyball replace him with Vickery, Ceglar, Patton and now Brooksby. None of which have had any successful and some downright failures in Ceglar and Vickery.

So right now we're trying to play a gameplan based on fast ball movement through elite skills (at the expense of foot speed) from the back line to the half forward line, before using forward pressure to conjure a goal with elite goal sense. Problem is we're trying it with lesser like-for-like players who don't have elite skills, no forward pressure and no goal sense.

What turned it around for Richmond was that Dimma and co. changed their gameplan. Rather than try and emulate the leading teams of the comp., he has pretty much sat down, assessed his list's strength's and weaknesses and devised a game plan that best suits his players. His players aren't highly skilled, highly disposal-efficient players, but they're hard at it, work together, and scrappers.

The Hawks' players know the gameplan is fubar, but there doesn't seem to be anyone there who is telling the coach this and he's under some illusion that the problem is the players aren't executing, when the problem is they can't execute it.

 

[TylerDurden]

In short:

We're still trying to play the same game plan from the 3-peat era with only minor changes.

This gameplan was executed by copious amounts of elite players in various roles who were highly skilled, disciplined and suited to the gameplan.

The latter is the key to why we look like the worst side in the competition. Clarkson has tried to top up with like-for-like players using a moneyball approach, but you can't like-for-like elite players using that approach. Take David Hale for example. An elite role fwd/ruck. Since his retirement, we've tried to moneyball replace him with Vickery, Ceglar, Patton and now Brooksby. None of which have had any successful and some downright failures in Ceglar and Vickery.

So right now we're trying to play a gameplan based on fast ball movement through elite skills (at the expense of foot speed) from the back line to the half forward line, before using forward pressure to conjure a goal with elite goal sense. Problem is we're trying it with lesser like-for-like players who don't have elite skills, no forward pressure and no goal sense.

What turned it around for Richmond was that Dimma and co. changed their gameplan. Rather than try and emulate the leading teams of the comp., he has pretty much sat down, assessed his list's strength's and weaknesses and devised a game plan that best suits his players. His players aren't highly skilled, highly disposal-efficient players, but they're hard at it, work together, and scrappers.

The Hawks' players know the gameplan is fubar, but there doesn't seem to be anyone there who is telling the coach this and he's under some illusion that the problem is the players aren't executing, when the problem is they can't execute it.

I'd say the leadership group have told him mate.
Let's see what he does with that feedback now.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Our disposal efficiency was awful against Sydney and has been down all year. Now it’s easy to put blame on the people disposing of the ball but if no one is working hard to provide them an option it doesn’t matter how good the footskills are.

I remember an interview that was done somewhere in 2012-2015 talking about how good we were by foot and it was mentioned how much that was as a result of the work downfield to provide an option.

Two of our much maligned kickers Scully and Worpel have shown this in the last two weeks. Worpel hitting targets in the first half against Sydney and Scully hitting Gunston lace out twice for two goals against Melbourne.

These guys can kick we just have to provide options for them. Sure it might be easier when the kickers are hodge, Mitchell and Lewis.

But the bulldogs in 2016 were awful by foot but made it work by working so hard into space that it didn’t matter if the kick was off by a couple of meters because they had that much time from hard running that they could still get the ball forward quickly. And we can still kick the ball better than they could.

Year after year we have lost quality people and IP.

We have gone from hi performance with our skill level to arguably now being the worst.

Look at the Saints. David Rath rolls in and they kick 12.1 last night.

We used to have an edge. It has all evaporated into thin air. Inevitable due to who we have lost and the volume. But it feels like there is complacency in the place. We never ever kick straight in front of goal which is a serious indicator of hi performance. And a lot of the time it is our best players who are the offenders.

 

[Gaston]

Sicily.

kind of, I was more thinking run and carry, crete overlap, 1, 2.
Impey is the sterotype but after an ACL your just putting immense mental pressure on the guy.

 

[H00t]

Year after year we have lost quality people and IP.

We have gone from hi performance with our skill level to arguably now being the worst.

Look at the Saints. David Rath rolls in and they kick 12.1 last night.

We used to have an edge. It has all evaporated into thin air. Inevitable due to who we have lost and the volume. But it feels like there is complacency in the place. We never ever kick straight in front of goal which is a serious indicator of hi performance. And a lot of the time it is our best players who are the offenders.

Losing IP and people is never great. But I feel it’s effect is overstated. The club should be always looking out for coaching talent. And sure losing good coaches has caused some teams to no longer be a permanent rabble anymore. But it hasn’t caused our game plan to become as awful as it has been. Which is the real problem.

 

[travgohawks23]

I believe our problem is we move the ball way too slow, when we finally get it past the middle we bomb it into the forward line. We dont have the players to mark or crumb the ball in packs anymore.
We need to move quickly out of defense, take some risks and try and get a quick kick into the forward 50 to either a leading gunston or another play, we are the worst at taking marks in the f50, this isnt going to change with the players we have.
I would rather play fast agressive footy and lose, than slow ploddy footy and still lose.

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

What's interesting to me is that everyone is bemoaning our slow ball use out of the back half/entry inside fifty as an issue (which I agree with) but fail to mention our inability to lock the ball inside 50 and overwhelm the defense with repeat entries in games where it's even around the ground.

That was the cornerstone of our game style last year and 2018 and was what lead to wins vs WC, Geelong, GWS etc. This was done even with a deteriorating Puopolo unable to apply pressure the way he used to. We have been unsuccessful in locking the ball inside our 50 sufficiently in 2020 which I think is a massive issue.

You will notice that the games vs Sydney and GWS a bunch of their goals were super easy and came out the back from breaking our zone for whatever reason. It's normal for this to happen a couple of times, but the amount of times it's happening makes it almost impossible for us to win games due to how easy it is to kick goals in these scenarios.

I wonder if the players are not working hard enough defensively in the forward half applying pressure to the rebounder, or if our interceptors are not working hard enough to stop the hacked kick out of there. In 2018/9 you would see a hacked kick out of the 50 and you would be 99% certain a Shiels/Sicily/Howe/whoever would be on the end of it and ready to bomb it back inside the arc. Now however, it's nearly always a 1v1 and if a chain of handballs or aggressive kick in the corridor comes off it will almost always result in a score.

Perhaps the zone is broke entirely?

I thought repeat inside 50 entries and forward pressure was the fundamental foundation of our gameplan of recent times and our success heavily relied upon this, yet I am not seeing it this year, and thus, not seeing success. The only game we actually did it was vs Richmond from memory, our only good performance in quite a while.

 

[LMGjr]

The Hawks' players know the gameplan is fubar, but there doesn't seem to be anyone there who is telling the coach this and he's under some illusion that the problem is the players aren't executing, when the problem is they can't execute it.

You are missing the most important intangible that got us Mitchell, O'Meara, Frost, Wingard, Frawley, McEvoy, and that is the coach has something to sell them, and he kept his promise 3 times over for some of them, so far, and the new ones who brought in know this.

The problem now is there is nothing left to sell Poppy, Shiels, Stratton, McEvoy, Gunston, Breust except the promise of maybe one last crack by picking up the "moneyball" players, as well as some elites.........its failed, but at least he tried for "his" soldiers. What more can he do?

These young man have been there done that and have a life now, after achieving every dream Clarko and the HFC sold to them and more.

Clarko kept his god damn promise to these boys! The HFC kept there promise.

In return Burgs stayed on knowing exactly why he stayed on.

Stratton accepted a luckless task because he's a good man who knows that his dreams came true because of the vision of others, and so has given everything asked of him, to cop what, Shit from his own supporters..........seriously it’s testament to the man he just hasn’t quit like Rioli did.

What else can our coach do with men he gave a vision too and they got it 3 times over, keep bleeding, well they are, for us the know it all supporters, and the next generation of players.

That's character mate, not the coach is shit like you are saying, nobody has quit the field (except Rioli for different reasons) unless asked to, and when asked to they did. Is there a higher accolade then this for a person? Man what respect, pity us mere mortal supporters can't offer the same!

Seriously you think Clarkson has lost the plot when he has men willing to stick to get the next batch through and convince the Wingards to sign.

Intangible assets, that will see us win another flag before many many other clubs, but lets bash our coach and captain because it seems to far off for some to see.

FFS

 

[RIOLINWITPUNCHS]

Good thread.

I am not potting Stratton here but we are lacking on field leadership all over the park. This cannot be underestimated.

That shit that Papley pulled yesterday would have been met with an angry Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Roughy etc back in the day. At the moment no one is willing to fly the flag consistently.

Additionally, I think clarko might have lost a bit of his mojo. He is calling out opposition players, clubs and umpires. This is not something he has done before. He is usually very measured but he has let his guard down this year.

That's just a couple of things I've noticed that may be symptoms of more pressing issues at the club.

Thoughts?

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

Additionally, I think clarko might have lost a bit of his mojo. He is calling out opposition players, clubs and umpires. This is not something he has done before. He is usually very measured but he has let his guard down this year.

That's just a couple of things I've noticed that may be symptoms of more pressing issues at the club.

Thoughts?

Something I don't think is acknowledged much is it's part of a coach's job to protect the players, and I think he's just deflecting a bit to keep the pressure on himself instead of on the players. At the end of the day they're just pressers, I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[LMGjr]

Good thread.

I am not potting Stratton here but we are lacking on field leadership all over the park. This cannot be underestimated.

That sh*t that Papley pulled yesterday would have been met with an angry Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Roughy etc back in the day. At the moment no one is willing to fly the flag consistently.

Additionally, I think clarko might have lost a bit of his mojo. He is calling out opposition players, clubs and umpires. This is not something he has done before. He is usually very measured but he has let his guard down this year.

That's just a couple of things I've noticed that may be symptoms of more pressing issues at the club.

Thoughts?

Pretty sure he did years ago and get dragged across the coals for it.

If I had achieved my dream 3 times in a row, have a family, a retirement plan and have watched my mates i did it with slowly disappear into the sunset I'd not want to get injured, suspended, fined, or anything else that could affect my future. Who would. But i'd stay and "help" out knowing it's the least i could do as long as I was honest with myself and the club about it. IE my family is more important now.

Even the great Allen Jeans was called into question when he tapped some players on the shoulder. Nothing lasts forever.

The only problem would be if our prized recruits such as O'Meara, Mitchell, Wingard etc all think it's a waste of time, because that then affects the young guys. Can't say I noticed Will Day thinking it's the wrong place to be. It could be for some of the other young guys if they aren't soon blooded though......such is the delicate balance the club finds itself in.

Don't throw out the key assets just because the old equipment have had enough.

 

[thejockey]

Good thread.

I am not potting Stratton here but we are lacking on field leadership all over the park. This cannot be underestimated.

That sh*t that Papley pulled yesterday would have been met with an angry Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis, Roughy etc back in the day. At the moment no one is willing to fly the flag consistently.

Additionally, I think clarko might have lost a bit of his mojo. He is calling out opposition players, clubs and umpires. This is not something he has done before. He is usually very measured but he has let his guard down this year.

That's just a couple of things I've noticed that may be symptoms of more pressing issues at the club.

Thoughts?

Probably not a discussion for this thread but I think he is intentionally taking heat/focus off the players and onto himself.

 

[Brant]

One glaring issue is the half back line, we don't have a designated person who we want to have ball in hand.
ie: W/Coast - Hurn.
Tigers - Short
Demons - Jetta, Salem

Look how differently we look when Day takes the game on, straight away your creating holes in defensive zones further up the field.
As stated, there are multiple issues but sometimes fixing the most glaring can minimise others.

Sicily.

The problem is mate, we don't give Sicily anyone to kick it to.

We're absolutely wasting him.

 

[LMGjr]

Probably not a discussion for this thread but I think he is intentionally taking heat/focus off the players and onto himself.

He is a shrewd operator.

He called bullshit bullshit and in doing so showed the players, once again, and especially the young players, that he has their back if its bullshit.

He showed Frawley "mate I've got your back because it was utter bullshit" - the trickle down affect of this is HUGE!!

 

[Mrzohs]

Could we just be a bunch of sooks when things are not going our way and having to leave melbourne.
What has changed since round 1, 3or4. That side that played Brisbane smashed the Tigers&Kangas in 3qtrs, that side is a million miles away.

The game style is a big concern just as concerning is the lack of synergy in the middle.The synergy between the group is alarming throw in the wingers and no one is playing there role.

The fwd line question marks remain over all our tall players and if any of them are capable of holding down the #1 tall option.

 

[ScottMaginness]

I wonder if the players are not working hard enough defensively in the forward half applying pressure to the rebounder, or if our interceptors are not working hard enough to stop the hacked kick out of there. In 2018/9 you would see a hacked kick out of the 50 and you would be 99% certain a Shiels/Sicily/Howe/whoever would be on the end of it and ready to bomb it back inside the arc.

What I do notice is that our forwards are often out-numbered which makes it difficult to defend the rebound. Even at the peak of their powers I wouldn't expect Burgoyne or Poppy to be able to stop 3 defenders.
We seem to set up better defensively from the kick-in so might be better off pulling the trigger and going for goal if in range rather than turn the ball over as we so often do 35m out.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Could we just be a bunch of sooks when things are not going our way and having to leave melbourne.
What has changed since round 1, 3or4. That side that played Brisbane smashed the Tigers&Kangas in 3qtrs, that side is a million miles away.

There’s been a bit of talk that similar to how the Eagles cracked the shits in QLD we’ve been far from pleased with how we were put in the hub, where we’ve been asked to set up, how many games we’ve been given at a ground we don’t like....

It made me wonder if this is what Clarko was alluding to in his presser.

 

[savagelunchbox]

Another concern is the direct intent to not use the center square. Like an "avoid at all costs" type plan.

Compare that with other teams who almost stop and try to turn back to get it into the middle if they're going down the wings.

Are the coaches instructing it because they're scared of the turnovers effects? If they are, then why are they persisting with the same forward gameplan?

Teams are happy to concede inside 50's to use knowing that we will bomb it high to no one, and that it stretches out our zone and we don't have the leg speed to cover it, leaving bigger gaps for them to run through, so they can take it from end to end rather easy and get some easy scores. By trying to move it through the middle, and quickly, the defense is not setup as well, and they don't have the numbers to pierce through our defensive zone. Theoretically, at least.

 

[Mrzohs]

There’s been a bit of talk that similar to how the Eagles cracked the shits in QLD we’ve been far from pleased with how we were put in the hub, where we’ve been asked to set up, how many games we’ve been given at a ground we don’t like....

It made me wonder if this is what Clarko was alluding to in his presser.

Hmmm good pick up this could be a reason, I just can't work out how we have gone to a un watchable side in 3 weeks.
90% of Footy is played above the head and confidence. Leadership and game plan are both big concerns.
Confidence has the team avoiding the first option and un willingness to take the dangerous kick to open the corridor.