What They're Saying - The Bulldogs Media Thread - Part 4

[olimauldon]

I agree wholeheartedly with your final sentence. But being at the game, it was certainly a relief whenever the ball was in his hands as soon as he came on. JJ and CD are our only right footers who I have any faith in to kick it and hit one of our own jumpers. Dale on his day too, but that wasn't yesterday.

It's more than just kicking though. Daniel has very clean hands when swooping on ground balls. Our smalls yesterday fumbled so often at times when we had better ground position than Melbourne and were one clean disposal away from breaking the lines and scoring. The result? Turnover and Melbourne goal.

I don't mind Daniel as sub. Having someone as clean and skillful coming into the game can be a good thing, as it was yesterday, so you could argue he performed the sub role well. But for more than a half we were missing exactly what he brings.

Daniel performed the sub role well cause he's a gun, he's not your average fringe-type sub that most teams use. I bet you if Bevo had Bont as the sub he'd also perform it well. Because he's also a gun

 

[Dazb86]

Daniel had an immediate impact because he is clean with the ball and has experience at the level. He could have replaced 6 or so players in the initial 22 and had a bigger impact.

 

[BIG_BONTS]

Perhaps there were objective fitness markers that Daniel has not hit this pre-season that led him to start as the sub

 

[Anja_Nees]

Perhaps there were objective fitness markers that Daniel has not hit this pre-season that led him to start as the sub

Bevo seems to be just blaming form, which I take it to mean at training and the preseason games.

The players are all judged on things we don’t know I guess (I keep thinking back to the week everyone thought Ayce Cordy was going to dropped in 2015 only for Minson to be dropped because Bevo liked what “Ayce brought defensively”).

Who knows. Seems like a premiership player gets this round one every year - Hunter, then JJ now Daniel.

 

[Frewy]

“I reckon there’s confusion”: David King outlines his areas of concern at the Western Bulldogs

“To me, they’re not AFL level players. They may get there, but right now they’re not...”

www.sen.com.au

I'm glad Kingy has called out our overly tall forward line which is now in the media spotlight early. I'm sure the club and coach were already well aware of this uncompetitive strategy for some time as they tried and failed to manufacture speed around it with VDM and McNeil.

I feel like VDM and McNeil are getting thrown under the bus for a strategy not even the speed of a 4 x 100 m Jamaican relay team could fix.

 

[Anja_Nees]

“I reckon there’s confusion”: David King outlines his areas of concern at the Western Bulldogs

“To me, they’re not AFL level players. They may get there, but right now they’re not...”

www.sen.com.au

I'm glad Kingy has called out our overly tall forward line which is now in the media spotlight early. I'm sure the club and coach were already well aware of this uncompetitive strategy for some time as they tried and failed to manufacture speed around it with VDM and McNeil.

I feel like VDM and McNeil are getting thrown under the bus for a strategy not even the speed of a 4 x 100 m Jamaican relay team could fix.

King is all over the place usually but the three pronged tall attack has never really worked for us.

His point about Weightman getting out of the way is a good one. I’d prefer Scott to McNeil or VDM. Usually pretty trustworthy with the ball.

 

[doggies ftw]

“I reckon there’s confusion”: David King outlines his areas of concern at the Western Bulldogs

“To me, they’re not AFL level players. They may get there, but right now they’re not...”

www.sen.com.au

I'm glad Kingy has called out our overly tall forward line which is now in the media spotlight early. I'm sure the club and coach were already well aware of this uncompetitive strategy for some time as they tried and failed to manufacture speed around it with VDM and McNeil.

I feel like VDM and McNeil are getting thrown under the bus for a strategy not even the speed of a 4 x 100 m Jamaican relay team could fix.

Lets not pretend like our fwd structure is so wildly different to other good sides.

Premiers last year? Cox, McStay, Mihochek was their preferred structure.

Some of the best looking teams across two games this year?

Hogan, Riccardi, Cadman
Curnow, McKay, De koning
King, Casboult, Lukosious
McLean, Amarty, Mcdonald

Are these so much more mobile than Naughty, Marra, Lobb? Or do they just utilise them better - or maybe they have even more speed than a Jamaican relay team to make it work?

 

[Golden_6]

The actual forward structure is fine. The issue is we have no good small pressure forwards outside West and our ball movement from the midfield is disgusting.

 

[hutchy31]

The actual forward structure is fine. The issue is we have no good small pressure forwards outside West and our ball movement from the midfield is disgusting.

I’d add that while our “structure” may be fine, it’s the actual movement of those players in the forward line that’s an enormous issue. Our ball use from midfield might not be great, but it’s not like they’ve got multiple good leads in different parts of forward 50 to aim at.

Plus, you know, even when they do hit a target it’s a complete lottery as to whether the forward can actually kick the goal.

 

[Mr. Walker]

The reported stat that we only kicked the ball to Naughton twice for the whole game has me intrigued. So many possibilities.
(a) The players don’t like him?
(b) He doesn’t lead?
(c) He does lead and (a)
(d) He does lead and the players know they haven’t the skill to hit him in the chest so they just bomb it
(e) he does lead and the players have the skill to hit him on the chest but the players think it is a better option to kick it long over his head
(f) the players just like other guys better
(g) the players know he gets paid more than they do so he can get the bloody ball himself

Is there any other reason?

 

[hutchy31]

The reported stat that we only kicked the ball to Naughton twice for the whole game has me intrigued. So many possibilities.
(a) The players don’t like him?
(b) He doesn’t lead?
(c) He does lead and (a)
(d) He does lead and the players know they haven’t the skill to hit him in the chest so they just bomb it
(e) he does lead and the players have the skill to hit him on the chest but the players think it is a better option to kick it long over his head
(f) the players just like other guys better
(g) the players know he gets paid more than they do so he can get the bloody ball himself

Is there any other reason?

h) The players are actually trying to target him but their execution is so bad that they can't get within 15m of his lead so it looks like they're not trying to hit him?

In all seriousness, from level 4 I could see that May had Naughton in his back pocket from early on. I wouldn't have been targeting him either.

 

[Frewy]

Lets not pretend like our fwd structure is so wildly different to other good sides.

Premiers last year? Cox, McStay, Mihochek was their preferred structure.

Some of the best looking teams across two games this year?

Hogan, Riccardi, Cadman
Curnow, McKay, De koning
King, Casboult, Lukosious
McLean, Amarty, Mcdonald

Are these so much more mobile than Naughty, Marra, Lobb? Or do they just utilise them better - or maybe they have even more speed than a Jamaican relay team to make it work?

Yes I believe they are more mobile and that we are uniquely different as a POD at least this year so far (see 2023 Blues), therefore no Jamaicans required just an extra quality small or defensive fwd. The strategy isn't a basket case and can stretch defences in many games but over a season and final series just doesn't seem to work well enough often enough.

Back to Carlton 2023 which alas failed at the prelim stage convincingly with two talls and mega tall forward line. It worked better for them with two massive caveats over the Dogs. Firstly they had two Coleman medallists and secondly De Koning is a short mega tall and highly mobile, borderline fwd/ruck not ruck/fwd.

The GWS three mobile KPF talls <200cm ish strategy can work, but is generally an exception. I think we have a definitive answer on two and a mega tall or dare I say the four headed hydra of Rd 1 2023.

Note - Mihocek is not a KPF tall and both Pies and Blues play only two starting talls as De Koning is primary ruck.

 

[doggies ftw]

Yes I believe they are more mobile and that we are uniquely different as a POD, therefore no Jamaicans required just an extra quality small or defensive fwd.

The GWS three mobile KPF talls <200cm ish strategy can work, but is generally an exception. I think we have a definitive answer on two and a mega tall or dare I say the four headed hydra of Rd 1 2023.

Mihocek is not a KPF tall and both Pies and Blues play only two starting talls as De Koning is primary ruck.

True forgot Pittonet wasn’t playing this year so will give you Blues, but just because Mihochek isn’t a traditional tall doesn’t mean he’s any more mobile than our guys. Naughty is the best pressure and ground level forward out of any of them on that list and it isn’t close.

Throw in starting ruckmans and I’d say our 4 are more mobile than Pies last year, GC, swans & touch & go with GWS. Riccardi, Hogan and Cadman are mobile talls in the same way Naughty & Marra are. They even play another 4th tall type in Brown and Toby who plays more tall than small and it works great, because they move the ball better than any team in the comp - the only genuine smalls they have in that forward line is Bedford & Daniels

Basically my point is it’s a pretty standard forward structure that plenty of good teams have gone to for years, the issues are much deeper than that and simply taking out one of the talls for another average small is not going to make the slightest difference.

 

[TiAn_]

True forgot Pittonet wasn’t playing this year so will give you Blues, but just because Mihochek isn’t a traditional tall doesn’t mean he’s any more mobile than our guys. Naughty is the best pressure and ground level forward out of any of them on that list and it isn’t close.

Throw in starting ruckmans and I’d say our 4 are more mobile than Pies last year, GC, swans & touch & go with GWS. Riccardi, Hogan and Cadman are mobile talls in the same way Naughty & Marra are. They even play another 4th tall type in Brown and Toby who plays more tall than small and it works great, because they move the ball better than any team in the comp - the only genuine smalls they have in that forward line is Bedford & Daniels

Basically my point is it’s a pretty standard forward structure that plenty of good teams have gone to for years, the issues are much deeper than that and simply taking out one of the talls for another average small is not going to make the slightest difference.

Brisbane have been thereabouts for years using combinations of Daniher, Hipwood, McInerney, McStay, Gunston, Fort, etc, that usually include three KPFs and a ruck.

 

[doggies ftw]

Brisbane have been thereabouts for years using combinations of Daniher, Hipwood, McInerney, McStay, Gunston, Fort, etc, that usually include three KPFs and a ruck.

Yep Port too - Dixon, Marshall, Finlayson and a ruck. Saints King, Membrey, Owen’s & a ruck. Freo Treacy, Amiss, Cox and a ruck (and Darcy to come back in) Adelaide Walker, Fogarty, Thrillthorpe and a ruck last year (lumbering as **** yet one of the best forward lines)

List goes on, all these guys are varying degrees of ability and mobility but we’re kidding ourselves if we think swapping Lobb out for the next best small, ie Scott would make any difference

 

[Frewy]

Brisbane have been thereabouts for years using combinations of Daniher, Hipwood, McInerney, McStay, Gunston, Fort, etc, that usually include three KPFs and a ruck.

Yep Brisbane previously did use the current GWS strategy of three talls, two and mega tall only possible if Big O resting forward. Now it's only a two prong tall forward line with McStay gone to better success.

For the record GWS only used a two prong tall line in the prelim last year when it was on the line.

 

[Frewy]

Yep Port too - Dixon, Marshall, Finlayson and a ruck. Saints King, Membrey, Owen’s & a ruck. Freo Treacy, Amiss, Cox and a ruck (and Darcy to come back in) Adelaide Walker, Fogarty, Thrillthorpe and a ruck last year (lumbering as * yet one of the best forward lines)

List goes on, all these guys are varying degrees of ability and mobility but we’re kidding ourselves if we think swapping Lobb out for the next best small, ie Scott would make any difference

Agree swapping out Lobb for an average small won't help. This actually what is the most worrying because the coaching staff already knew this which is also why the presser was both helpful in honesty and concerning from Bevo.

Everything we are now throwing out in the comments are pretty alarmist adjustments at only Rd 1 to prevent a mediocre season and at least win or make a home final not for a premiership, but in the hope we get at minimum one of those mega contracts signed to prevent a compromised rebuild. We've seen the competition adjust in one pre-season and I think it's fair to say we all hear alarm bells ringing including Bevo noting his surprising lack of run comments.

Timing is everything and it will be a long time at the bottom again for those in the bottom 4 when Tassie comes in.

 

[ExRoyboy]

This today from Jack Makeham at SEN just catches it perfectly:


The Bulldogs looked completely uninterested in stopping the Demons from moving the ball by foot, and it clearly cost them.

They allowed Melbourne to take an astonishing 141 marks throughout the game, with 129 of those being uncontested, indicating a complete lack of effort on the defensive side of the ball.

The biggest beneficiary of this was Jack Billings, whose career-high 15 marks in the match amounted to more than Tim English, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, Rory Lobb and Aaron Naughton had combined (14 total).

Billings’ display becomes even more concerning when looking at his history, collecting more marks in this one game against the Bulldogs than he did all of last season.

Any time you allow an anomalous performance like that, both on an individual front and as a team, it means you have to go back to the drawing board.

It’s a defensive approach that simply does not result in wins and must be adjusted if the Dogs are going to return to finals in 2024.



It was patently clear last year that we were a basket case at defending when we didn't have possession. It was top of the list to be worked on over summer. In capitals.

There was no sign that anything had been done about it on Sunday. Nothing. Defensively we are a disgrace and we need more media pointing it out ad nauseum.

This is why Bevo needs to go, not due to his selection decisions even though some of them are baffling, it’s the complete lack of a defensive strategy while at the same time an inability to move the ball against well structured defences which is the reason why he needs to go.

He actually does not seem to have any idea what to do about either of these things. Or if he does, his ideas are terrible and not working. We have years of evidence of this now. It does not really matter what happens over the next few weeks, because playing against any team with a decent game plan we will come undone because we cannot defend, have not been coached in the right defensive structure and also don’t seem prepared to run or are not fit enough to run hard to cover opposition ball movement. We don’t man up, we let teams hit up short kicks all the way up the ground.

Its terrible to watch, just leaves you in despair as a supporter.

 

[Dogs5416]

I think the biggest problem is our forward structure. We need to play selfless footy in the front. I feel like Naughty and Weightman in particular are always flying for marks when someone else is in a better position to mark the ball. Block and run decoy leads. Or just lead to lanes to move defenders.

I would like to see more separation between our marking forwards. How many times did we kick to a pack and to have it intercepted? Why don’t we isolate our forwards? Marra was looking dangerous so play him out the goal square. Naughty, Lobb and Weightman need to push up ground and link up.

The other issue with our current forward line is intercept marks are hard to defend because our players are attacking. This leaves opposing players free to counter attack.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[theAthenian]

One of the obvious things for me watching the game is that cody weightman

3

Cody Weightman

Age

23

Ht

179cm

Wt

75kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

6.5

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.0

4star

D

6.5

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

2.5

2star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

6.5

2star

K

4.0

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

2.0

3star

T

1.0

3star

G

1.0

4star

needs to go back to the 2's and learn to be a team player and also learn that at his height and body weight he should stay firmly on the ground. His spoiling the leading forward over and over again is just rubbish play.

Also Tim English is vanilla.. nothing more

 

[lachy]

I’d add that while our “structure” may be fine, it’s the actual movement of those players in the forward line that’s an enormous issue. Our ball use from midfield might not be great, but it’s not like they’ve got multiple good leads in different parts of forward 50 to aim at.

Plus, you know, even when they do hit a target it’s a complete lottery as to whether the forward can actually kick the goal.

It really is pretty basic in the forward line. Space is only created by constant movement, don't move and space is automatically shut down. Don't move and you allow intercept players to sag off and intercept or defenders to roll into a contest and cause an out number.

This is particularly so playing the I formation as we tend to do. Never been a fan of it, but if it is to work movement is critical

 

[hutchy31]

It really is pretty basic in the forward line. Space is only created by constant movement, don't move and space is automatically shut down. Don't move and you allow intercept players to sag off and intercept or defenders to roll into a contest and cause an out number.

This is particularly so playing the I formation as we tend to do. Never been a fan of it, but if it is to work movement is critical

Possibly one of the reasons why JUH looked to be the only real winner in our forward line on Sunday.

Naughton's capable of it, as is Cody (not sure about Lobb, but if the others can get out of his immediate vicinity then he's probably got a decent chance of taking a contested mark). But at the moment it feels like they might get off the chain against a poor team/defense like North or Hawks or WC, but against any half decent team they'll struggle to find the requisite space.

 

[doggies ftw]

Possibly one of the reasons why JUH looked to be the only real winner in our forward line on Sunday.

Naughton's capable of it, as is Cody (not sure about Lobb, but if the others can get out of his immediate vicinity then he's probably got a decent chance of taking a contested mark). But at the moment it feels like they might get off the chain against a poor team/defense like North or Hawks or WC, but against any half decent team they'll struggle to find the requisite space.

To be fair to the forwards, and it’s a mess up there, but I don’t see anyone being able to consistently generate space when we move the ball like we did on the weekend. Slow stop start wide. It’s just a mess. On the few occasions we did manage to get the ball out the back or in with any kind of speed we actually had a few decent entries on the end of it, like to VDM, English etc although of course they fluffed em anyway

 

[A dog in Qld]

The reported stat that we only kicked the ball to Naughton twice for the whole game has me intrigued. So many possibilities.
(a) The players don’t like him?
(b) He doesn’t lead?
(c) He does lead and (a)
(d) He does lead and the players know they haven’t the skill to hit him in the chest so they just bomb it
(e) he does lead and the players have the skill to hit him on the chest but the players think it is a better option to kick it long over his head
(f) the players just like other guys better
(g) the players know he gets paid more than they do so he can get the bloody ball himself

Is there any other reason?

h) he is played out of position. He needs to play as a traditional CHF and create some mayhem moving between FF & the centre. Most of his likely defenders would struggle if he was left to roam.

 

[lachy]

To be fair to the forwards, and it’s a mess up there, but I don’t see anyone being able to consistently generate space when we move the ball like we did on the weekend. Slow stop start wide. It’s just a mess. On the few occasions we did manage to get the ball out the back or in with any kind of speed we actually had a few decent entries on the end of it, like to VDM, English etc although of course they fluffed em anyway

Space is not created by ball movement. Space is created by forward players moving working in tandem often just 15 meters apart.

The only one who consistently moved on the weekend was JUH and what a shock, created Space for himself and also for others on the odd occasion they did move.

Smart forwards force the ball carrier to kick into that Space by moving. Standing and pointing to kick it to the hot spot may work in junior football but not professional football. That long kick should only ever be a get out kick, not the standard one and if forwards are not moving the issue rests with them

On SM-S926B using BigFooty.com mobile app