News & Events What world wide event/tragedy has impacted you the most

[xamol]

You do know that every year in the UK probably 10 children are killed by other children?

Could you name any?

Why is this case in particular so worthy of abandoning every precept of modern justice?

I dont know of any others. I just recall this one back in '93 and how it fckd with my head for so long. The way it happened creeps the hell out of me. Thompson and Venebles did it for a prank. 10 year olds (normal ones anyway) dont do sick pranks like this.

Also,
I didnt say this case was worthy of abandoning every prcept of modern justice.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

II didnt say this case was worthy of abandoning every prcept of modern justice.

By wanting them to be held responsible for crimes committed when they were underage, you effectively have. Not just underage, but bloody 10.

For the record, every year black British children shoot/stab other black British children and it barely rates a paragraph in the paper.

It is only when cute white kids like James Bulger or Rhys Jones are the victims that a huge uproar develops.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Criminal responsibility shouldn't be based on some arbitrary age, it should be based on the characteristics of the person themselves. Plenty of 10 year olds would know exactly what they're doing.

 

[RU486]

By wanting them to be held responsible for crimes committed when they were underage, you effectively have. Not just underage, but bloody 10.

For the record, every year black British children shoot/stab other black British children and it barely rates a paragraph in the paper.

It is only when cute white kids like James Bulger or Rhys Jones are the victims that a huge uproar develops.

Gang wars are not the same as the abduction and murder of a defenceless child. I' am in favor of rehabilitation but not maximum prison terms, a person should only be released provided the chances of rehabilitation are high and they are unlikely to reoffend. I don't know much about the Bulger case but I'd be very suprised if they had genuinely been rehabilitated and did not pose a danger to the community. Regardless they should not have the ability to be issued passports, which I believe they have the right to (may be wrong).

 

[Copernicus]

Living in the US, I have to say that three of the more recent tragedies have probably affected me the most.

* September 11. Its still really tangible to Americans. Their world was turned upside down in a completely unexpected way, and it has made life here different in many ways, I suspect. I arrived after it occurred, but you can still get a sense of how things are different. Americans are more suspicious by far than they ever were.

* The bushfires last year. Being so far removed from them, and yet growing up so close to where they occurred, was rather a surreal experience. I can't imagine what it was like around Melbourne during the event and afterward.

* The earthquake in Haiti last year. Haiti is so close geographically, and yet so far away in so many respects. It really made me appreciate how easy life is in a country like the US when such a disaster could be happening mere hundreds of miles away.

 

[Plugger35]

Mel dieing on Packed to The Rafters. I will always remember what I was doing when it happened, watching Packed to The Rafters.

Haha, yeah that was pretty tragic. Makes 911 pale in comparison.

I was pretty cut up when Maude Flanders died as well. Still haven't got over it tbh.

You do know that every year in the UK probably 10 children are killed by other children?

Could you name any?

Why is this case in particular so worthy of abandoning every precept of modern justice?

The media always latch on to certain stories. I guess the Bulger case got so much attention because of the way it happened and the victim was so young.

The same thing happened with the disappearance of Madelaine McCann due to it being such a sensational story, a cute little English girl from a wealthy family snatched from her bed in a holiday resort in Europe.

Hundreds of other little kids go missing but they don't get anywhere near the attention that case did. If it was an ugly black kid from a poor family snatched from their bed in Brixton, no one would have given a shit.

 

[Invigoration]

With someone like Bryant, it is only ever going to be an estimation of how mentally 'old' they are.

With venables and Thompson, we know how old they were.

Fair enough with the estimation of mental capacity.
But I don't really see how that justifies it though, seems to me to be putting far too much onus simply on a number.

Bryant had an IQ of 66, he couldn't read or write so in that aspect he was probably developmentally behind where Venables and Thompson were, the catch being that he had simply lived 18 years longer at the time of his crime.


(I should point out I'm not implying that I think Bryant shouldn't be imprisoned and that V&T should, just making a point using the two cases)

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Gang wars are not the same as the abduction and murder of a defenceless child.

These aren't gang wars.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

The media always latch on to certain stories. I guess the Bulger case got so much attention because of the way it happened and the victim was so young.

My old editor, also a good mate, covered the Bulger story in great depth and she is of the opinion that the defining thing about the case is this image.

Seeing that image, knowing what happened to James straight after, speaks to some part our soul/subconscious that we don't fully understand IMO.

If all the same events had happened but there'd not been that image, I doubt there'd be same reaction, even all these years later.

 

[SHAKESPEARE]

Making the world cup in 2006. The Penalty shootout in 2005

 

[xamol]

Criminal responsibility shouldn't be based on some arbitrary age, it should be based on the characteristics of the person themselves. Plenty of 10 year olds would know exactly what they're doing.

Agree with you here GP.

These two 10 years new exactly what they were doing. They lead Bulger over 2 miles to a railyard.

 

[krusden]

My old editor, also a good mate, covered the Bulger story in great depth and she is of the opinion that the defining thing about the case is this image.

Seeing that image, knowing what happened to James straight after, speaks to some part our soul/subconscious that we don't fully understand IMO.

If all the same events had happened but there'd not been that image, I doubt there'd be same reaction, even all these years later.

is it the protection part of us maybe?

interestingly that many of the events involving children that are the more reviled
- bryant chasing and killing alannah and madeleine
- bulger
- dunblane

 

[xamol]

My old editor, also a good mate, covered the Bulger story in great depth and she is of the opinion that the defining thing about the case is this image.

Seeing that image, knowing what happened to James straight after, speaks to some part our soul/subconscious that we don't fully understand IMO.

If all the same events had happened but there'd not been that image, I doubt there'd be same reaction, even all these years later.

That little 3 year was doomed right there and then SLF.
Agree with your comment though.

 

[Zuma]

Mel Rafter R.I.P

 

[smiddaz123]

I don't sway strongly to either side of thinking, but what's the difference between mentality being the age of a child (Bryant supposedly aged at 11 years old mentality) and being able to be convicted compared to actually being that age and therefore not able to be held responsible?

Bryant had developed more or less to his peak intelligence. He wasn't going to get out of chiildhood mentally, there was no potential to change.

Not the case for a 10 year old acting as a 10 year old. Nowhere near their intellectual peak and they should be looked at again when they're around adulthood to see how their mental state is.

In the Bulger case there was one little psycho **** and another impressionable idiot who went along with it. No excuses for the latter, he deserves to be punished and live with what he did, but I see his role as something different to Bryant's cold hearted killing.

It's a bit of a cop out in my opinion to say we can't hold this 10 year old kid responsible for what he did because he isn't mentality capable of comprehending or grasping what he has done, while on the other hand there is no issue in incarcerating a person who is mentality the same age but is physically 18 years older. Seems a bit unjust to base accountability of actions simply on the number of years since your birth (although I realise there are adults who will be considered unfit to stand trial etc).

It's all about potential to be rehabilitated for me. I see a far greater likelihood in a 10 year old with normal intelligence for someone his age not re-offending than someone who according to experts, won't ever get out of childhood mentally in Bryant, or someone similar.

By all means if the 10 year old grows up and stays a psycho then keep him locked up. There should definitely be an effort made for the kid to become a normal and function member of society again though, and if he's judged to have changed, then let him go after his sentence, but obviously keep a close eye on him or her. If the offender is judged to still show no remorse or comprehension, then don't let them out.

I'm just arguing the lock them away and throw away the key shouldn't be used on any child.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Agree with you here GP.

These two 10 years new exactly what they were doing. They lead Bulger over 2 miles to a railyard.

Did they BOTH know, beyond reasonable doubt (standard of proof in adult murder trial) as they led Bulger from the shopping centre that they were going to take him to that particular stretch of railway line and murder him?

As I recall from the evdience, thompson certainly was not of this belief.

I don't think Venables did either. This was not pre-meditated murder as you suggest.

For example, when Andrew Veniamin left a house to go and knock someone on behalf of Carl Williams, he knew exactly what he was doing. he was armed with a gun and the knowledge of where the person would be and had formed a plan for how he would execute the crime and get away.

I dispute in the strongest possible terms that when Thompson and Venables were leading James Bulger away from the shopping centre they had the same mens rea (to butcher the Latin)

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

That little 3 year was doomed right there and then SLF.
Agree with your comment though.

I don't think he was. Again, I don't have the court transcripts in front of me but as I recall plenty of witnesses saw the boys leading a crying James away (as you say, 2k to the railway line where they killed him) and felt that something was seriously wrong.

Yet none of them went over and properly intervened? Why not?

 

[Shell]

On Dunblane.

Two things.

1) A hell of a lot got covered up about that.
.

Care to elaborate???

I havent read any books on Dunblane, only what is on Wiki, says he was known as some pedophile, but never got charged with anything in the lead up to the shootings.

Sounds like the police were way incompetent on this one if that is true...

 

[Shell]

Agree with you here GP.

These two 10 years new exactly what they were doing. They lead Bulger over 2 miles to a railyard.

And not one person/adult stopped them even tho James was crying.

But then again in this day and age who would try and do anything. They also may have just assumed they were his older brothers.

Still dam tragic when you think someone could have stepped in and prevented this.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Care to elaborate???

I havent read any books on Dunblane, only what is on Wiki, says he was known as some pedophile, but never got charged with anything in the lead up to the shootings.

Sounds like the police were way incompetent on this one if that is true...

http://www.freewebs.com/dunblaneunburied/

Good stuff here, especially on the way Lord Cullen ordered a blackout on reporting details of the case.

Why?

 

[Shell]

By all means if the 10 year old grows up and stays a psycho then keep him locked up. There should definitely be an effort made for the kid to become a normal and function member of society again though, and if he's judged to have changed, then let him go after his sentence, but obviously keep a close eye on him or her. If the offender is judged to still show no remorse or comprehension, then don't let them out.

I'm just arguing the lock them away and throw away the key shouldn't be used on any child.

I'm pretty sure it was reported recently one of the two is showing some signs of pedophilia or something disgusting/worrying along those lines.


Has anyone questioned where this came from in the first place?? Geezus their childhood must have been pretty ****ed up to do that in the first place, or were they just born evil.

Who knows.

 

[Shell]

http://www.freewebs.com/dunblaneunburied/

Good stuff here, especially on the way Lord Cullen ordered a blackout on reporting details of the case.

Why?

Thanks for the link.

Gtg now, will read it later.

 

[smiddaz123]

I don't think he was. Again, I don't have the court transcripts in front of me but as I recall plenty of witnesses saw the boys leading a crying James away (as you say, 2k to the railway line where they killed him) and felt that something was seriously wrong.

Yet none of them went over and properly intervened? Why not?

From what I've read plenty of witnesses noticed the boys hitting or kicking Bulger along their walk to the railroads but either turned the other way or assumed they were brothers playing violently. Pretty sad.

At the grassy knoll by the reservoir, an elderly woman noticed the baby, who was obviously hurt. She approached them and asked what the problem was. James was in tears, his face bruised and red.

"We just found him at the bottom of the hill," Jon and Robert claimed as if they didn't know him.

She told the boys to take him to the Walton Lane Police Station just down the road and gave them directions there. The little boy's injuries worried her. She pointed them in the direction of the police, but watched incredulously as they walked off in the opposite direction. She shouted after them, but they didn't turn back. As she stood there, unsure what to do, another woman who had seen the boys earlier said that James had been laughing. She believed the baby was okay; they were probably inexperienced brothers watching over their younger sibling.

Later that night, the woman saw the news of the missing toddler on television. She immediately called the police and told them about her encounter. "I wish now I had done something," she said.

A woman walking a dog eyed the boys with the toddler and asked what was going on. They told her that they found the lost boy at the Strand and were on their way to the police station. Another concerned woman, who had a little girl with her, overheard the conversation and joined in. "Well," she said, "you've walked a long way from the Strand to Walton Lane Police Station."Jon said, "That's where the man directed us." When she asked where they lived, Robert was about to answer, but Jon cut him off. "The police station is on our way home."
Robert let go of James' hand, as if willing to relinquish him. The women watched Robert as he looked away. He seemed nervous. But then Jon took control. "Get hold of his hand," he said. Robert once again took James by the hand.
The younger woman with the child looked down at James, who was hurt, and appeared upset. "Are you all right, son?" she asked. James didn't answer. Jon insisted they would find the station; they would take care of it. But the woman felt something wasn't right. It was getting dark and the boys weren't honest. She asked that the other woman with the dog to watch her little girl, who was tired, while she escorted James to the station. But the woman with the dog refused — her pet did not like children. As the boys took off, the younger woman called out, "Are you sure you know the way?" Jon pointed in the direction. "I'll go that way, missus."

 

[matty_hawk]

I don't think he was. Again, I don't have the court transcripts in front of me but as I recall plenty of witnesses saw the boys leading a crying James away (as you say, 2k to the railway line where they killed him) and felt that something was seriously wrong.

Yet none of them went over and properly intervened? Why not?

Hardly anybody would intervene, From what i understand, the kids were lying to people who asked about the situation. I believe one person did ask something to which one of the boys replied that they were taking him to their mother.

The problem is, no they shouldn't be punished as adults, but no punishment will ever look sufficient in comparison to what they did to a 2 year old, to the boys family, and to the public in general who, going by this thread, are still quite impacted by it.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

I'm pretty sure it was reported recently one of the two is showing some signs of pedophilia or something disgusting/worrying along those lines.

Venables has been banged up again for child pr0n and drug stuff. Apparentley when he was arrested and being held in custody was telling other prisoners his real identity - pretty much a death wish.

Doesn't sound like the most stable bloke.