When will the Carlton FC Arrive?

[Chief]

Part 2 of this thread is here:

When will the Carlton FC Arrive? Part 2

PART 1 of this thread is here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/when-will-the-carlton-fc-arrive.1259822/ ============= We're all thinking it. We're watching this story play out for the 4th time in the last 20 years and it's the same story every time. They have a great list of exciting...

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[Robertio]

IF (and it's a massive IF) Cripps and Charlie return to their very best, Carlton's top 5 (add Walsh, Weitering and McKay) is as good as any club in the competition.

But if they both return to their best, how do you retain them all given the $$$ you have tied up in Martin (who I rate, but also misses more footy than he plays), Saad and Williams?

Who is going to come good from your crop of other high-ish draft picks? Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Cuningham, etc. Maybe one or two will, but I haven't seen it yet and you'd hope that if anyone at Carlton had any confidence in them, they'd be played ahead of the older brigade, which they aren't. They've all been on the list for long enough.

My opinion - if a lot goes right, they will have a fleeting moment in the finals without contending for a flag, similar to what they did in 2009 to 2013 (but for a shorter duration). Peak at 6th to 8th, might sneak a finals win or two.

That is as far as they go in the foreseeable future, before their next rebuild and we're then talking 10 years down the track.

So, what is your prediction? Let's see who gets closer...

Regular top 4 for 4 years might sneak one if everything goes right. Cuningham has been good, Stocker will be very good, has elite hands and a beautiful kick, watch out for a kid named De Koning as well.

 

[Arr0w]

Yep, I would prefer Hind and Pick 8 than Saad. Totally understand you wouldn’t want to be making the call right now.

However I could see Blues supporters justifying the trade if they managed to extract a flag with a highly performing Saad during his tenure there though. That’s the big hope and it’s achievable, but right now it looks like they have ponied up a war chest for two above average half back flankers (that’s also a little generous on one of them at the moment).

Please stop with this seemingly positive, but actually trolling posting.

It might surprise you, but prior to the trade period and after, that I indicated the likes of Noble, Hind and Witherden were better bang for buck options

I wouldn't consider either player average, their careers this far have indicated that.

Things turn quickly, surely you would know that, given most, if not all Tiger supporters were calling for blood at the end of 2016 and prior

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Maths not your strength?

Apparently a big chunk of Saads and Williams is front loaded this year hence the 105% cap payment and Martin will be on ~$350k from now.
So if we work on $1.7mil take Martins $350k
That leaves ~$1.35mil for Saad and Williams contracts that were front loaded.
Maths isn’t the problem it’s your ignorance

 

[Arr0w]

IF (and it's a massive IF) Cripps and Charlie return to their very best, Carlton's top 5 (add Walsh, Weitering and McKay) is as good as any club in the competition.

But if they both return to their best, how do you retain them all given the $$$ you have tied up in Martin (who I rate, but also misses more footy than he plays), Saad and Williams?

Who is going to come good from your crop of other high-ish draft picks? Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Cuningham, etc. Maybe one or two will, but I haven't seen it yet and you'd hope that if anyone at Carlton had any confidence in them, they'd be played ahead of the older brigade, which they aren't. They've all been on the list for long enough.

My opinion - if a lot goes right, they will have a fleeting moment in the finals without contending for a flag, similar to what they did in 2009 to 2013 (but for a shorter duration). Peak at 6th to 8th, might sneak a finals win or two.

That is as far as they go in the foreseeable future, before their next rebuild and we're then talking 10 years down the track.

So, what is your prediction? Let's see who gets closer...

You still handing out list management and cap advise?

We currently don't have cap issues, nor are we reliant on all youth getting to elite status, especially cherry picking some of our kids

 

[LordLucifer]

Soap the reality of it is Teague and Co will not drop Murphy, Betts, Curnow and Casboult.

What I am struggling to understand is why 9 posessions last week by Williams is acceptable yet change his name to Dow and he would have been dropped.

Why is it ok for Casboult to have 0 impact for 18 months and still have a game? McGovern is a lock when fit and hasn't played a good game since he joined our club. Surely you change the structure if we don't have the cattle to play 3 talls?

Why is it ok for Murphy to jog around and be unaccountable?

We go into every game with 18 players at best due to our putrid selection commitee and set horrible standards for our kids as a result.

Not to mention when kids do play they are forced out of natural positions to make way for the same old, e.g. Kennedy on a wing.... Waiting for Matt Owies to go into the ruck next.

We are very good at dropping kids and battlers (Gibbons, Newnes etc) and never make the hard calls.

Honestly to me the only senior player (30 y.o approx) that stands up for us is Curnow, he has his limitations but at least he cracks in. Jones maybe a bit stiff but his bad is so so bad.

Have a closer look at the stats and you will see that since coming to Carlton, Newnes has only had 20 possessions or more in a game three times yet if Dow or O'Brien deliver those numbers they get punted.

Gibbons is another who skates through with small numbers yet the players we are pinning our future on get hauled over the coals for it.

We have drafted (supposedly) some good young talent yet we don't really know if they are going to make the grade because they either get played out of position or don't get played at all.

If we are serious about this caper, we should be selecting the young players (eg. Setterfield, SPS, Dow, O'Brien, Stocker, Ramsay, Philp etc) and let them play the season out in their preferred position. At least that way we will know if they are worth persevering with by year's end !!

 

[bigm386]

Who is Casboult keeping out?
The only player Murphy is possibly keeping out considering you don’t want players played out of position is SPS and I don’t know if he has actually ever played decent footy as a forward.... never kicked more then two goals in a game.
Betts is probably only playing because we have 5 starting forwards missing and even then he has kicked 4 more goals then our third leading goal kicker.
Yes Curnow is keeping young midfielders out but he has been our second best midfielder this season and if you want to see the real problem have a look at the VFL game last week where those young midfielders were just run of the mill VFL level. They don’t need a game, they need to improve. That’s their problem.
Young players like Stoker, Parks, Cottrell, Fogarty are getting their chance and so will anyone who deserves it.
I keep hearing that we are playing players out of position and that we need to be giving more opportunities to the young players but you can’t play, SPS, Setterfield, Dow and Stoker and then put them all in the midfield. Sure take out Curnow then fit 4 kids into his one role in the midfield.
Just playing kids for the sake of it does absolutely nothing, that’s why so many people play 10-100 games and never actually take the next step. ATM it looks like we are making sure the kids actually earn it so that they have the tools but more importantly the mental strength to actually be players.

As I said Casboult hasn't had a good game in 18 months. If we don't have 3 capable talls change the system.

Murphy has kept out plenty and not just this year. Surely Honey or Durdin would offer more.

Betts has had a few good weeks granted. But his pressure and pace is an issue. When a one arm Harry McKay hd more pressure acts than a small forward it's not good. I'd much rather see Honey/Durdin again. The best bit is if Fisher was fit Betts wouldn't be making way, it would be Owies which is wrong in my opinion.

The issue is we play kids in the midfield in the VFL bring them to seniors they play forward, wing or halfback. It's a pointless exercise.

 

[Fadge]

You still handing out list management and cap advise?

We currently don't have cap issues, nor are we reliant on all youth getting to elite status, especially cherry picking some of our kids

It's 'advice'.

Not sure I said you currently have cap issues, I'm looking to the future, as was requested of me. I used some examples of kids, but with all respect, I had a lot of similarly non-developed players to choose from.

 

[Fadge]

Apparently a big chunk of Saads and Williams is front loaded this year hence the 105% cap payment and Martin will be on ~$350k from now.
So if we work on $1.7mil take Martins $350k
That leaves ~$1.35mil for Saad and Williams contracts that were front loaded.
Maths isn’t the problem it’s your ignorance

They are not the numbers you're working with, and you know it.

 

[Arr0w]

It's 'advice'.

Not sure I said you currently have cap issues, I'm looking to the future, as was requested of me. I used some examples of kids, but with all respect, I had a lot of similarly non-developed players to choose from.

We have banked space for years and with retiring and or footsoilders departing over the next 1-3 years, I don't see an issue with cap.

As for kids on the list, most neutral supporters have little knowledge of what might be coming through in years to come

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

As I said Casboult hasn't had a good game in 18 months. If we don't have 3 capable talls change the system.

Murphy has kept out plenty and not just this year. Surely Honey or Durdin would offer more.

Betts has had a few good weeks granted. But his pressure and pace is an issue. When a one arm Harry McKay hd more pressure acts than a small forward it's not good. I'd much rather see Honey/Durdin again. The best bit is if Fisher was fit Betts wouldn't be making way, it would be Owies which is wrong in my opinion.

The issue is we play kids in the midfield in the VFL bring them to seniors they play forward, wing or halfback. It's a pointless exercise.

Cas is pretty much covering three bases in that he can fill in ruck, cover an in game injury to Jones or Weitering and give a target up forward. No one on our list who is fit can do this. If it wasn’t for Omac injury then he probably would’ve been dropped but a coach can’t help that. Maybe in a week or two we can make the change but to this point we have had our hands tied because of injury.
Honey but more so Durdin haven’t done enough. Both could literally come in and struggle to find the ball 5 times and Murphy is playing a role where they need to be getting it 15-20. If they come in it’ll be in Bett/Owies role. We’ve tried giving Dow ago in a very similar role and it was a disaster.

I agree with the last part, that’s why I’d be making sure they are ready not just matching it with VFL players before they are picked. If you are an average VFL mid what is the chance of making the transition and succeeding at AFL level. We would just be setting them up for failure. Unfortunately Setterfield and Dow aren’t versatile enough to ease into AFL football. At least Stoker looks like he can hold his own in the backline so we can actually slowly transition him into the midfield.

 

[Rich01]

I wouldn't consider either player average, their careers this far have indicated that.

Stop twisting my words.

I said both Williams and Saad were above average half back flankers, although rating Williams that may be a little high at the moment. They haven’t won AA in their position from memory to lift them from above average?

Personally I think the Blues overpaid for these guys. Saad in trade value and Williams in contract dollars.

If you disagree that’s fine, but I’d prefer the top ten draft pick and $1.5m in cap space to entice or keep a good mid or key position forward.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

They are not the numbers you're working with, and you know it.

They don’t fit your narrative?

 

[Fadge]

They don’t fit your narrative?

Not when they're not accurate.

 

[Arr0w]

Stop twisting my words.

I said both Williams and Saad were above average half back flankers, although rating Williams that may be a little high at the moment. They haven’t won AA in their position from memory to lift them from above average?

Personally I think the Blues overpaid for these guys. Saad in trade value and Williams in contract dollars.

If you disagree that’s fine, but I’d prefer the top ten draft pick and $1.5m in cap space to entice or keep a good mid or key position forward.

So if they aren't AA, they are average? That analysis is average, considering only 2 players make the AA HB line

Have already mentioned the Saad situation so go on your circular Carlton posting with someone else

Cap isn't an issue, so the most important capital is picks and we didn't use any, just like with Martin

 

[Rich01]

So if they aren't AA, they are average? That analysis is average, considering only 2 players make the AA HB line

Where have I ever said they were only average? Read my posts before sounding off Arrow.

 

[blue healer]

Cripps is fine and so is McKay. Casboult has a chronic knee issue. Murphy Betts Curnow aren’t the future. TDK SPS Dow O’Brien need to play and in there right spots.

I liked Stocker for his first game as a mid. Good signs

Seriously, in one post you accuse the coach of not following Doctors advice. In another you say Cripps has a fractured back and then 21 posts later you say this.

Looks to me like this is another thread where we announce to the world that we have a wonderful batch of young players but all of our problems come back to development and the fact that the coach is sh*t.

I see enough of this crap on our own board without seeing it on the main board. You Carlton supporters are making this club more of a ******* laughing stock than we already are.

FMD follow another sport.

 

[Arr0w]

Where have I ever said they were only average? Read my posts before sounding off Arrow.

Did you forget this already? You think adding the word "above" mitigates your backhanded positives?

"but right now it looks like they have ponied up a war chest for two above average half back"

 

[Soapy V]

Seriously, in one post you accuse the coach of not following Doctors advice. In another you say Cripps has a fractured back and then 21 posts later you say this.

He was injured Rds 1 & 2 (and IMO shouldn't have been played) but is now fine. How is that hard to understand?

 

[bmaurizio]

Well Teague should be congratulated if that is the case because we will be turning a top 10 pick into a 2-3rd rounder at best who will perform at another club.

We are a rabble

Agree very poor form , terrible list management, it’s inevitable coaches have their favorites.
Just look at the McGov.shambles , very little due diligence done before the trade obviously, he was unfit and injury prone then and now? same old same old , wonder whom isheld accountable, it’s unacceptable.

 

[Robertio]

Very well thought out reply mate, suppose it took all your brain power.

 

[blue healer]

He was injured Rds 1 & 2 (and IMO shouldn't have been played) but is now fine. How is that hard to understand?

Ah so now we believe the coach?

 

[Soapy V]

Ah so now we believe the coach?

The club released a statement yesterday. I am happy to believe it and my original statement stands. Playing injured players is wrong and helps no one. Cripps is currently fit to play

 

[Robertio]

Seriously, in one post you accuse the coach of not following Doctors advice. In another you say Cripps has a fractured back and then 21 posts later you say this.

Looks to me like this is another thread where we announce to the world that we have a wonderful batch of young players but all of our problems come back to development and the fact that the coach is sh*t.

I see enough of this crap on our own board without seeing it on the main board. You Carlton supporters are making this club more of a ******* laughing stock than we already are.

FMD follow another sport.

Mate you should not be very proud of this and that's a reason i don't go on the Carlton board.

 

[Soapy V]

Mate you should not be very proud of this and that's a reason i don't go on the Carlton board.

Agree and I'm the same

 

[blue healer]

Mate you should not be very proud of this and that's a reason i don't go on the Carlton board.

And the crap from some of Carlton supporters here is why I don't come here often. Really don't care whether you or anyone else thinks I should be ashamed of the post. I am ashamed of some of the supposedly Carlton supporters who feed the trolls on threads like this.

Sorry.