Where are you at?

[OldStyle2007]

Re: Where are you At

The only thing I want to say about the OP is that GAJ's girlfriend should be left right out of the discussion. I'm not sure what people are really expecting of her, but it's weird she's a part of the conversation

 

[thejester]

Re: Where are you At

Lol at 'oh no the AFL poached our coaches' - are people really that short sighted? Almost all of our staff came over from other clubs, from Sando to Cook.

 

[Partridge]

I was saying all the way through the finals that Menzel and THunt should have been in the team and pretty much got shouted down by most

I think it was obvious in the Collingwood game that we were well off the pace around the ground in terms of not just speed but the volume of running the Magpies were doing

This was obvious in Round 19 loss, and the QF loss to Saints

That team we had against the Bulldogs had a lot of run and exuberance and I can't believe we just went back to the oldies as they came back to fitness. But still Bomber went with the veterans and despite his loyalty to them the veterans let him down by their inability to adapt to a new game plan

So next year it should be game on for every single spot in the 22 and no more of this Australian cricket team selection, pick the favourites and the veterans BS

Couldn't have said it better myself. Brilliant post and absolutely correct.

There was an awful lot of blind faith in the coach and the veterans, and given our finals series that now should be removed.

I believe we still have a side that could pose a major threat next season, on the following unalterable conditions:

1. Taylor Hunt, Menzel, Duncan, Dawson Simpson and Laidler (for starters) are given senior selection. Starting in Round 1.

2. Stokes and Blake should be traded. Some stupid clubs will give us draft picks for them. They aren't going to get any better and we've got superior options already.

3. Ottens, Milburn, and Mooney are either played in the seconds or told to retire. Corey as well.

4. Hawkins is relentlessly worked over pre-season so his fitness and endurance actually improves. He's also played only as a forward. If his foot goes again tough shit. I'm sick of us babying our players when opposition clubs don't. Look at Riewoldt - he tore a hamstring badly this season but he is still expected to run himself into the ground every week. And he does. Half the time we're scared to even play guys because they might get injured. It's fearful and pathetic.

5. Most of all - as OldStyle has already said - every single spot has to be earned on merit and past deeds count for zero. Thompson's goddamn pets like Mackie, Stokes and even Johnson don't get picked automatically. And it goes for everyone else.

 

[The rabbi]

2. Stokes and Blake should be traded. Some stupid clubs will give us draft picks for them. They aren't going to get any better and we've got superior options already.

3. Ottens, Milburn, and Mooney are either played in the seconds or told to retire. Corey as well.

O.K. But who do we play in the ruck? Dawson Simpson and who?

 

[RegHickeyStand]

I was saying all the way through the finals that Menzel and THunt should have been in the team and pretty much got shouted down by most

I think it was obvious in the Collingwood game that we were well off the pace around the ground in terms of not just speed but the volume of running the Magpies were doing

This was obvious in Round 19 loss, and the QF loss to Saints

That team we had against the Bulldogs had a lot of run and exuberance and I can't believe we just went back to the oldies as they came back to fitness. But still Bomber went with the veterans and despite his loyalty to them the veterans let him down by their inability to adapt to a new game plan

So next year it should be game on for every single spot in the 22 and no more of this Australian cricket team selection, pick the favourites and the veterans BS

I agree. In hindsight. I would have been one of those who thought the experienced player would come good and be more reliable under pressure. I also thought the Bulldogs game proved nothing. But I think I was wrong. Those young legs did give us more than I thought esp in the first quarter.

You would have to agree though that Bomber and MM were coming from different places when considering selections. MM had nothing but disappointments over recent years and Bomber had just about won everything over 4 years with his list. Also, coaches have a 12 month plan and know who they are putting their faith in for some time or which direction they are heading with selections. Right or wrong, Hawkins was a project. And he was doing very very well until injured. Bomber must have had faith to persevere with that, but it didn't pay off. I remember when he started with Taylor. Taylor used to get murdered, but he persevered with him. So, Bomber had a good track record in that respect, and he backed himself this year, but it didn't come off..

 

[b1ggl3s]

AFL
- assistant coach poached
- fitness coach poached
- ceo attempted to poach
- general manager attempted to poach
- best player poached
> this is getting to the stage where the AFL needs to understand you can't destroy one club to establish another
> why didn't the AFL have the balls to move North, rather than try to destroy 15 years of work from Costa and Co

That's what bites.....it looks like GFC have been targeted. Didn't the GC also approach Selwood? Why haven't the GC raided Collingwood/Carlton/Essendon? And that tool Sheedy earlier this year was saying other clubs should target GFC....FFS! I'm convinced most of what the AFL has done in the last three years has been to screw Geelong.

 

[Vdubs]

I was saying all the way through the finals that Menzel and THunt should have been in the team and pretty much got shouted down by most

I think it was obvious in the Collingwood game that we were well off the pace around the ground in terms of not just speed but the volume of running the Magpies were doing

This was obvious in Round 19 loss, and the QF loss to Saints

That team we had against the Bulldogs had a lot of run and exuberance and I can't believe we just went back to the oldies as they came back to fitness. But still Bomber went with the veterans and despite his loyalty to them the veterans let him down by their inability to adapt to a new game plan
So next year itshould be game on for every single spot in the 22 and no more of this Australian cricket team selection, pick the favourites and the veterans BS

in TOTAL agreement

 

[dymmot]

I think some guys are passed it despite how good they are/were.

Scarlett needs to go back to a pocket role as he is slowing and Hunt needs to become the full back. Milburn is awesome still and had one of his best years ever but should retire gracefully and on a high note. He has been one of the most underrated and biggest superstars of the club in the past decade.

Ablett goes and Selwood can step up and we are very lucky to have him. Varcoe can go in the middle.

Forwards are where we struggle. Gameplan needs to change very drasticaly for Pods who is rookie oif the year and very very good but as much as I hate to say this, Mooney is due to retire and Hawkins needs to go back in the forwardline. Mooney going means we can shove a Scarlett or even Ablett in two years time on to the exempt player spot for the cap.

We need to recruit another forward to work in with Tomahawk and Pods. We seem to forget tghat Hawkins was on fire when he went to the forwardline before the injury. Get him right and get him back there.

With the ruck, get Simpson in there now for development while using Otto as an impact ruckman as at 31 next year, his time is limited due to the physical nature of his post. In the offseason next year we need rto target a new player either similar to Ottens or as a backup to get Dawson support.

Do not piss Matty Stokes off as he is handy and has been one of our most accurate and best kicks for goal all this year. He is hitting the peak rtime for fowards now in an age sense.

Motlop needs ametime if his shoulder comes good as the one game he played, he looked promising and performed.

Junior wise, we need to get guys like Duncan, Menzel, West, Laidlaw and Simpson in to the side immediately, if not all at once in bits for development. I would rather drop for a couple of years and regroup rather than push for success and bow ourt in a preliminary yet again. In 04/05 we got a good taste for the dfuture and we need to go back this way yet again to regroup. I still say to this day guys like Riccardi were instrumental in this and that is why it would be good to keep the older heads around or some of them for another year to give the kids some guide.

 

[thejester]

1. Taylor Hunt, Menzel, Duncan, Dawson Simpson and Laidler (for starters) are given senior selection. Starting in Round 1.

5. Most of all - as OldStyle has already said - every single spot has to be earned on merit and past deeds count for zero. Thompson's goddamn pets like Mackie, Stokes and even Johnson don't get picked automatically. And it goes for everyone else.

Isn't that a blatant contradiction? You demand x number of youngsters get a gig and then say every spot is earned on merit. Laidler has played two senior games FFS, in one he was good in a side that dominated and in the other he was poor in a side that got dominated. After his initial few games Duncan's senior appearances were based on injury to senior players, not any outstanding VFL form on his part - the same with Simpson.

I'm all for all spots being earned but the reality is going into preseason next year there'll be another half dozen youngsters on the list and guys like Weston, Cowan and Bundy who had excellent back halfs of the VFL season will be pushing for selection as well. People seem to be seduced by the flavours of the month pretty easily.

 

[isen river]

Isn't that a blatant contradiction? You demand x number of youngsters get a gig and then say every spot is earned on merit. Laidler has played two senior games FFS, in one he was good in a side that dominated and in the other he was poor in a side that got dominated. After his initial few games Duncan's senior appearances were based on injury to senior players, not any outstanding VFL form on his part - the same with Simpson.

I'm all for all spots being earned but the reality is going into preseason next year there'll be another half dozen youngsters on the list and guys like Weston, Cowan and Bundy who had excellent back halfs of the VFL season will be pushing for selection as well. People seem to be seduced by the flavours of the month pretty easily.

Finally some sense in this stupid thread.

 

[cynical]

spots shouldn't be based on merit otherwise no kid would get a game

if a kid can be 80% as good as a senior player then he should be playing

I'd like to see 2 kids in the backline, midfield (including ruck) and forwardline.

That means 6 players should be retired/traded.

Milburn, Ottens, Mooney, Ling, Blake , Ablett, minimum

I'd like to see 8 gone if ablett leaves but that wont happen.

I dont mind old guys staying on as long as they know they will be playing games in the 2's unless there are injuries.

 

[OldStyle2007]

You would have to agree though that Bomber and MM were coming from different places when considering selections. MM had nothing but disappointments over recent years and Bomber had just about won everything over 4 years with his list.

I concede that but I reckon that the lessons of the 2008 GF were not completely absorbed by Bomber

Because backing blokes who are injured to play well is the same as backing out-of-form veterans to come good: the odds are definitely against you, and you are putting the club at risk because of your personal feelings for players. Malthouse and Lyon never do that

The writing was on the wall after Rd 19 about what needed to happen with run and chase and getting the players on the park that could do that. Then the Bulldogs game came along..... HELLO!!!

There's also some obvious stuff like how Ling did such a great job on Goddard in the QF as a "defensive forward" which turned the game for us in the 2nd half and should have won the game.

Then against the Magpies Ling's not doing that role against Maxwell or O'Brien.... That Gilbert goes defensive forward on Maxwell today and kicks that big goal in the 3rd quarter just proved to me how obvious it was for us to put Lingy into that position given that there is not really any other option for him right now

I reckon we definitely should have won the flag this year but some hard calls needed to be made that weren't.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

I concede that but I reckon that the lessons of the 2008 GF were not completely absorbed by Bomber

Because backing blokes who are injured to play well is the same as backing out-of-form veterans to come good: the odds are definitely against you, and you are putting the club at risk because of your personal feelings for players. Malthouse and Lyon never do that

The writing was on the wall after Rd 19 about what needed to happen with run and chase and getting the players on the park that could do that. Then the Bulldogs game came along..... HELLO!!!

There's also some obvious stuff like how Ling did such a great job on Goddard in the QF as a "defensive forward" which turned the game for us in the 2nd half and should have won the game.

Then against the Magpies Ling's not doing that role against Maxwell or O'Brien.... That Gilbert goes defensive forward on Maxwell today and kicks that big goal in the 3rd quarter just proved to me how obvious it was for us to put Lingy into that position given that there is not really any other option for him right now

I reckon we definitely should have won the flag this year but some hard calls needed to be made that weren't.

For me after watching today, maybe not "Should have won the flag". More like "Could have won the flag". On first sight of last week's prelim I thought no way. On second thoughts and having look at the replay, our gameplan was ruined by this possession obssession our midfield has, led by one G Ablett. I'll challenge you: go watch the replay in the first Qtr and a half and watch how many times he gets the ball (great!) then wastes it with pointless passes and maneuvers going nowhere. It was where most of Collingwood's goals came from at one stage. The commentators didn't get it. They were saying if it wasn't for Ablett it would have been worse. How the f could it have been worse?! We were 10 goals down before half time! A bottom side vs top side scoreline. They should have said if Ablett is dominating (24 possessions before half time) and we are getting absolutely embarrassed, then there is something wrong with what Ablett was doing with the ball. And there was. And it was highlighted by Wojo's great dash and Varcoe's goal as a contrast. Ablett was getting heaps of ther ball and running backwards doing smartarse pittypat passes and then trying to get the ball again. Its like he has devised a Brownlow vote catching way of playing and he has forgot what made him a valuable player. So wasteful, and responsible for so many turnovers and goals. We should have been pumping down the forward line and giving our talls a chance. Or trying to run through the line. But no, it was handpass, handpass, handpass, handpass, turnover, Collingwood goal. Lovely stats they got, though.

 

[JMc#5]

For me after watching today, maybe not "Should have won the flag". More like "Could have won the flag". On first sight of last week's prelim I thought no way. On second thoughts and having look at the replay, our gameplan was ruined by this possession obssession our midfield has, led by one G Ablett. I'll challenge you: go watch the replay in the first Qtr and a half and watch how many times he gets the ball (great!) then wastes it with pointless passes and maneuvers going nowhere. It was where most of Collingwood's goals came from at one stage. The commentators didn't get it. They were saying if it wasn't for Ablett it would have been worse. How the f could it have been worse?! We were 10 goals down before half time! A bottom side vs top side scoreline. They should have said if Ablett is dominating (24 possessions before half time) and we are getting absolutely embarrassed, then there is something wrong with what Ablett was doing with the ball. And there was. And it was highlighted by Wojo's great dash and Varcoe's goal as a contrast. Ablett was getting heaps of ther ball and running backwards doing smartarse pittypat passes and then trying to get the ball again. Its like he has devised a Brownlow vote catching way of playing and he has forgot what made him a valuable player. So wasteful, and responsible for so many turnovers and goals. We should have been pumping down the forward line and giving our talls a chance. Or trying to run through the line. But no, it was handpass, handpass, handpass, handpass, turnover, Collingwood goal. Lovely stats they got, though.

Understand what you're saying...

Don't agree 100%...

But, i fu*n hope Ablett goes! This contract saga has gone on too long and if he were to stay now i reckon i'd be more disappointed than if he went.

It's bad form and un-Geelong-like the way he's acted, and if he wants to go for more money then good on him, i'd do the same, but announce it, don't go around saying "I haven't made a decision yet"...

Varcoe and Enright in the mids next year... A couple of young guns, hopefully my man Menzel Washington... big year!



Watching the GF today... Geez both the Saints and Pies have some spuds running around, who for some reason step up and play well against us...

We need that attitude because this year we were the hunted and got well and truly hunted... next year we can hunt...

Our list is still well and truly the best... just need to get the best out of it...

 

[OldStyle2007]

Reg I might try and watch it again, but the game's been well and truly deleted and I'm not sure if I really want to track it down!

I think you're right though. Gaz defines the Cats game style to a large extent. So the Pies developed a gameplan to contain that. "The Box" defence really does lock in a player like Gaz or Judd who can break free of pack and do damage, and it eats up a high handpass game

However, I do reckon Gazza's preference is to break free and kick rather than just shovel a quick handpass off. But in that first half the Pies made sure they put so much pressure on him that he had to give it up by hand. The Pies made someone else other than Gaz beat them by foot

But in the second half when Gaz was able to break free and then kick he did set up some goals

I know what you mean but I am more of the opinion that Gaz was about the only Cat midfielder moving with some energy and speed. If he had a couple of mates moving like that, well maybe they could have moved the ball on a bit quicker and got out of the "box"

I think the rest of the team was too static and stationary in their movement which made it so much easier for the Pies to beat them with their swarming defence

 

[Vdubs]

Anyone who thinks our team is better off without ABLETT is , well, sacreligious.

 

[Partridge]

Isn't that a blatant contradiction? You demand x number of youngsters get a gig and then say every spot is earned on merit. Laidler has played two senior games FFS, in one he was good in a side that dominated and in the other he was poor in a side that got dominated. After his initial few games Duncan's senior appearances were based on injury to senior players, not any outstanding VFL form on his part - the same with Simpson.

I'm all for all spots being earned but the reality is going into preseason next year there'll be another half dozen youngsters on the list and guys like Weston, Cowan and Bundy who had excellent back halfs of the VFL season will be pushing for selection as well. People seem to be seduced by the flavours of the month pretty easily.

Yeah that's a fair call. I'll clarify somewhat.

Assuming everyone has a good pre-season and practice match form, I believe younger players like Taylor Hunt, Laidler, Menzel, Duncan etc should be given every opportunity at senior level. But fair enough they still need good form in the pre-season. I don't want Duncan or Menzel getting picked if they haven't had a touch before Round 1. That's a very valid point.

However, I don't want guys like Stokes getting picked automatically anymore either. The prelim final demonstrated pretty brutally we need to bring some youth and pace into the team. Not 22 new faces by any means, but there has to be some evolution of the list. If Mooney has played one practice match for example and done nothing, while Pods and Hawkins have been better, then they should be picked for Round 1 and Mooney runs around in the seconds. These are the tough decisions that have to be made.

 

[Hybrid7]

Yeah that's a fair call. I'll clarify somewhat.

Assuming everyone has a good pre-season and practice match form, I believe younger players like Taylor Hunt, Laidler, Menzel, Duncan etc should be given every opportunity at senior level. But fair enough they still need good form in the pre-season. I don't want Duncan or Menzel getting picked if they haven't had a touch before Round 1. That's a very valid point.

However, I don't want guys like Stokes getting picked automatically anymore either. The prelim final demonstrated pretty brutally we need to bring some youth and pace into the team. Not 22 new faces by any means, but there has to be some evolution of the list. If Mooney has played one practice match for example and done nothing, while Pods and Hawkins have been better, then they should be picked for Round 1 and Mooney runs around in the seconds. These are the tough decisions that have to be made.

And surely those decisions will be made. I think its been a matter of the coaching staff thinking "well its still working and we are still winning so why change a good thing".

A lot of people are on the bag the cats bandwagon saying that the "dynasty" is over and what not.
But when you look at our team from 07 to 10 - we have made stuff all changes to the list and still been the team to beat for majority of that time.
I mean, the major changes in the last few years are what? N Ablett leaving and Hawkins coming back in, and the loss of Egan who didnt play in the 07 finals series anyway. Sure we lost Kingy, but apart from that our side has not really changed and yet still led the pack!!

Anyone who thinks our window is closed doesnt realise that with a few little tweaks we can be back out in front of the pack - we just missed a 4th consecutive grand final for gods sake!!

 

[geelong12]

I'm over Mooney and Blake. Mooney is one of those players I'd hate if he was at another team and he's the only one. Now that his ability is falling away I thinks it's time for Hawkins to try and nail a permanent position.

Blake will probably walk out but he seems to overrate his ability.

 

[geelong12]

Gazza is a little champ as well. He has done more than enough for this club to warrant to go to the GC if he wishes.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Gazza is a little champ as well. He has done more than enough for this club to warrant to go to the GC if he wishes.

It's not that he will leave that is pissing everyone off, it is the charade that he is complicit to that is the problem. Getting drawn out like the outcome might actually be exciting to us all, as opposed to what it will really be.

 

[Hybrid7]

Not only that, but I think because it has dragged out for so long its going to cause a lot of mixed feelings with fans if he stays.

It would be fantastic if he stayed but I would feel a little upset that he has made us all wait on a knifes edge for so long.....

 

[randyzany]

Gazza is a little champ as well. He has done more than enough for this club to warrant to go to the GC if he wishes.

Funny because I tend to look at it from the opposite angle.

GAJ was fortunate and blessed to have been one of the cogs of a multiple Premiership winning side (who pushed him to be the player he is today), something that eludes many greats of the game.

As good as he is, he's but only one player, Geelong the team with a record All-Australians in 2007 would've won flags with/without him.

Furthermore back in 2005 he was offered a long generous contract that the vast majority of neutral observers thought was worth way more than the actual ability he had demonstrated up to that point deserved. He knew it too as he signed it without a moments hesitation. The size of the contract was probably in a sense an unofficial thank you to his family for the joy his father had provided to our supporters when he played for the club.

So if any party during this period of success should be thankful, it should be the individuals who have come along for the ride, not the club.

Just my 2 bobs worth.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

Yeah that's a fair call. I'll clarify somewhat.

Assuming everyone has a good pre-season and practice match form, I believe younger players like Taylor Hunt, Laidler, Menzel, Duncan etc should be given every opportunity at senior level. But fair enough they still need good form in the pre-season. I don't want Duncan or Menzel getting picked if they haven't had a touch before Round 1. That's a very valid point.

However, I don't want guys like Stokes getting picked automatically anymore either. The prelim final demonstrated pretty brutally we need to bring some youth and pace into the team. Not 22 new faces by any means, but there has to be some evolution of the list. If Mooney has played one practice match for example and done nothing, while Pods and Hawkins have been better, then they should be picked for Round 1 and Mooney runs around in the seconds. These are the tough decisions that have to be made.

Agree Partridge, I'm just not sure it'll happen.

I listened to Harley being interviewed by Scott Gullan (highly reccommend twas a good interview) and he said what we all knew, that his body was packing it in, and he knew he didn't really deserve selection for the GF, but then he went on to say that the good thing about Bomber is that he's extremely loyal to the players who've done it for him in the past, and if you've got those runs on the board, you can be secure in knowing he'll back you even if you're not in form etc now. Tis one of the issues I have with Bomber in 2011..while I definitely still think he's the best person for the job ability wise, methinks that if he's decided he's not going to be around for the future anyway, he's not going to dump players he's been previously loyal to to get the Menzel's in the side....I certainly would be happy to be proved wrong though, time shall tell.

 

[OldStyle2007]

Agree Partridge, I'm just not sure it'll happen.

I listened to Harley being interviewed by Scott Gullan (highly reccommend twas a good interview) and he said what we all knew, that his body was packing it in, and he knew he didn't really deserve selection for the GF, but then he went on to say that the good thing about Bomber is that he's extremely loyal to the players who've done it for him in the past, and if you've got those runs on the board, you can be secure in knowing he'll back you even if you're not in form etc now. Tis one of the issues I have with Bomber in 2011..while I definitely still think he's the best person for the job ability wise, methinks that if he's decided he's not going to be around for the future anyway, he's not going to dump players he's been previously loyal to to get the Menzel's in the side....I certainly would be happy to be proved wrong though, time shall tell.

I'm worried it might take until mid-season or later for Bomber to realise the team he should be putting on the park and we may have stuffed our season by that stage

On Gazza, I think the club has done a lot for him. They gave him a lot of time and games to develop, told him he could be as good as Judd, and pretty much the whole game plan for some time was to get it to him and block for him. A lot of the team put their bodies on the line to get the ball and clear a path for Gaz. Now he's cleared himself a path to a fortune!